(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Brian Nystrom:
I've never heard of anyone dieing due to water in their dry suit. Unless
you paddle in conditions where you frequently tear up your clothing and
end up with water in it, it's simply not a realistic concern.

I've read of one dying and a couple almost dying - and I don't go
looking for that kind of stuff.

The guy who died was local. Went out without enough under the
suit, fell in just beyond the surf line and perished before the
eyes of people on the beach.

OK, but what does that have to do with whether to put socks on a dry
suit or not, or tearing it, which is what we were discussing? It sounds
like this guy died of hypothermia due to inadequate insulation, not from
a leaking suit.

The near misses were a couple of guys on a Hobie 16.

Repeated attempts to right the Hobie caused their suits to ship
water in small increments (make a fist and observe the little
tunnels that open up between the tendons.... same thing with the
neck).

I've spent a LOT of time in the water in my dry suit (many hours), in
the course of instructing and playing victim in rescue scenarios. I have
never had a significant leak, despite doing a lot of clambering around
on decks and being pulled and dragged onto boats by students. I
understand your point about neck and wrist tendons, but I'm a thin guy
and I still have no problem with that. The worst I've experienced is
slightly damp wrist cuffs/sleeves on my underlayers. I've had more
moisture accumulate in the sleeves from sweating than from seal leakage.

BTW, I trim my seals so that they're comfortable, so it's not a matter
of having seals that are really tight to keep the water out. While this
tendon issue may be a problem for some people, it's not true for everyone.

Unless you are repeated going underwater, you should not get significant
water in through a neck seal in a rescue scenario, even with comfortable
-fitting seals.

Having latex or Gore-Tex socks eliminates leaks at the ankle, where
tendons can be even more of a problem than at the wrists and neck.

They had taken on enough water that the PolarTec under the suits
had become so heavy that they could no longer climb up on the
Hobie's hull. Their account was that they would have died if a
power boat hadn't happened along in time.

- What kind of suits were they wearing?
- What type of seals did they have (latex, neoprene)?
- Which seals leaked in the water (wrist, neck, ankle)?
- Were they using neck rings?
- How could they have let water out of the legs - as you suggested - if
they couldn't get out of the water?

My point here is that you need a lot more information than just that
they were wearing dry suits if you're going to use this incident as an
example of why you shouldn't use latex or Gore-Tex socks on a dry suit.

Balancing the insulating layer under a bag suit is a game that
everybody has to play: too much and you overheat from paddling,
too little and you lose heat too quickly when immersed.

True and there is no way to be perfectly balanced all the time, since
your effort level will likely vary during the day. However, a breathable
suit does a good job of keeping you warm, dry and comfortable. Even when
I had to dress for repeated, prolonged immersion in 40 degree water (for
"teabag" duty in classes), yet still exert myself substantially, I
managed to be pretty comfortable.

After every cold-water sesh in my bag suit I try to flop into
neck-deep water and fool around with the boat for awhile until
the chill starts to penetrate.

Call me a slow learner, but I am always surprised at how short a
time that is.

I've been able to remain relatively comfortable for up to 30 minutes of
playing victim in the water with just long underwear and 300 weight
fleece. If I was exerting myself enough to generate more heat, rather
than playing at being incapacitated, I would probably have been OK for
considerably longer. The biggest problem was my legs and feet, since I
was vertical in the water most of the time and the extra water pressure
on my lower extremities compressed my insulation more.

One thing I can say for certain is that having latex socks that I could
wear wool socks under was a godsend. Before I installed them, even much
short immersion was very painful on the feet. A friend of mine did a
test and spent 19 minutes in 28/29 degree salt water. The only reason he
got out was that his feet were killing him. He only had ankle seals on
his dry suit at the time. I would never want a dry suit without
waterproof socks.

Per Brian Nystrom:
True and there is no way to be perfectly balanced all the time, since
your effort level will likely vary during the day. However, a breathable
suit does a good job of keeping you warm, dry and comfortable. Even when
I had to dress for repeated, prolonged immersion in 40 degree water (for
"teabag" duty in classes), yet still exert myself substantially, I
managed to be pretty comfortable.

For lake paddling, I wear a Kokatat GoreTex full bag with
integral socks. I tend to dress on the cool side and stay close
to shore.

It's the end-all-do-all for comfort/convenience.

But at the end of every workout, the fleece that I wear
underneath it is pretty soaked to the point where it can be wrung
out..

If I'm paddling two hours or so, sometimes I'll stop halfway
through, take the thing off, take a leak, and hang some of my
clothes out to dry for awhile.

Suit isn't leaking in that scenario - it's just sweat.

My experience is that "Breathable" means that if you stand around
without exertion long enough eventually the suit will breathe
itself dry.... but if I'm paddling, I'm sweating faster than the
suite can transpire.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Brian Nystrom:
One thing I can say for certain is that having latex socks that I could
wear wool socks under was a godsend. Before I installed them, even much
short immersion was very painful on the feet. A friend of mine did a
test and spent 19 minutes in 28/29 degree salt water.

I wear NRS' "expedition-weight" neoprene socks under them and
Tevas "Neutron" surf shoes over them.

19 minutes is at the long end of what I can spend in 30-ish water
before I start *really* feeling the chill.

That's all well and good.... and 19 minutes is better than
five.... but it definitely puts things in perspective for me.
--
PeteCresswell

Sylvain Fauvel wrote:


I would go for a Bottom or 1 piece with socks Attached. Cold feet is a
common problem, even with a dry-suit.

Also, the attached sock can be either latex (can tear more easily)
of neoprene. I would go neoprene. Actually i have Latex socks
attached but am considering a change.

I have added goretex socks to my drysuit. That is less prone to tear and
thinner than neoprene socks, but at least you can continue to wear your
normal neoprene shoes. Also, unlike the latex ankle gastkets, the socks
have the added benefit of being a lot less tight around the ankle, which
means that they are not limiting blood circulation to your feet. That in
itself can make a big difference when it comes to preventing cold feet.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Wilko wrote:
Sylvain Fauvel wrote:


I would go for a Bottom or 1 piece with socks Attached. Cold feet
is a common problem, even with a dry-suit.

Also, the attached sock can be either latex (can tear more easily)
of neoprene. I would go neoprene. Actually i have Latex socks
attached but am considering a change.

I have added goretex socks to my drysuit. That is less prone to tear and
thinner than neoprene socks, but at least you can continue to wear your
normal neoprene shoes. Also, unlike the latex ankle gastkets, the socks
have the added benefit of being a lot less tight around the ankle, which
means that they are not limiting blood circulation to your feet. That in
itself can make a big difference when it comes to preventing cold feet.

Where did you find Gore-Tex socks that could be added to a dry suit. I'd
like to add some to mine, since the latex socks that are on it now are shot.

I've had this drysuit
(http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...eptid=1174)for 3 seasons
so far. It is the best drysuit I have ever owned. The attached booties
make it easy to get in and out of. It is warm and comfortable, and because
it is breathable, sweat doesn't condense on the inside. I'm a whitewater
boater, so I can't promise it will be as good in the ocean, but it is a
great suit for whitewater and a good value. One of my friends had a two
piece--it took him a while to get in and a while to get out.

--Bob Gramann

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Micheal Artindale:
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...45524442503911
is simmular to the dry tops i am looking at. The dry bottom is not the
farmer john type, it is like a pair of trousers.

Gaskets are at the waist, neck, wrist and ankle openings. I think I have
seen a pair of bottoms that had attatched socks.

Looks to me like something that would keep one reasonably dry as
long as they stayed in the boat.

Come out of the boat, go through the rinse cycle a few times, I'd
bet a weeks pay it's gonna take on water - big time.

I use a one-piece bag suit for lake paddling.

One-piece mixed-mode (neo john bonded to bag top with PolarTec
shirt) for ocean/surf when the water's really cold.

For less-cold water, I use a regular farmer john with a dry top
like the one you linked to.

That combo will keep one dry for the first few moments of
immersion, but in the end it's wet. OTOH, the john is a wet
suit.... i.e. it's designed tb warm with a film of water under
it. The top? Like I said I don't wear it when the water's
really cold.... maybe down to the low fifties; then I go to the
one-piece solutions.
--
PeteCresswell

Per Bob Gramann:
I've had this drysuit
(http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...eptid=1174)for 3 seasons
so far. It is the best drysuit I have ever owned. The attached booties
make it easy to get in and out of. It is warm and comfortable, and because
it is breathable, sweat doesn't condense on the inside. I'm a whitewater
boater, so I can't promise it will be as good in the ocean, but it is a
great suit for whitewater and a good value. One of my friends had a two
piece--it took him a while to get in and a while to get out.

That looks identical to the Kokatat that I use for flat-water
paddling.

There is *nothing* more comfortable or easier to get in/out of.

But for surf, it doesn't work for me. The problem is that the
legs get vacuum bagged when one wipes out and that effect
severely limits motion - especially if the crotch has worked it's
way down a foot or so as it will if the body is cut a little
long. You can wind up in the shore break unable to stand up
until you lay back in the water and wiggle around enough to get
the crotch up where it belongs.

--
PeteCresswell

On Jan 19, 2:45*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Bob Gramann:

I've had this drysuit
(http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...ptid=1174)for3 seasons
so far. *It is the best drysuit I have ever owned. *The attached booties
make it easy to get in and out of. *It is warm and comfortable, and because
it is breathable, sweat doesn't condense on the inside. *I'm a whitewater
boater, so I can't promise it will be as good in the ocean, but it is a
great suit for whitewater and a good value. *One of my friends had a two
piece--it took him a while to get in and a while to get out.

That looks identical to the Kokatat that I use for flat-water
paddling. *

There is *nothing* more comfortable or easier to get in/out of.

But for surf, it doesn't work for me. * The problem is that the
legs get vacuum bagged when one wipes out and that effect
severely limits motion - especially if the crotch has worked it's
way down a foot or so as it will if the body is cut a little
long. * You can wind up in the shore break unable to stand up
until you lay back in the water and wiggle around enough to get
the crotch up where it belongs.

--
PeteCresswell

Silk long johns. a marvel.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:
Sylvain Fauvel wrote:


I would go for a Bottom or 1 piece with socks Attached. Cold
feet is a common problem, even with a dry-suit.

Also, the attached sock can be either latex (can tear more easily)
of neoprene. I would go neoprene. Actually i have Latex socks
attached but am considering a change.

I have added goretex socks to my drysuit. That is less prone to tear
and thinner than neoprene socks, but at least you can continue to wear
your normal neoprene shoes. Also, unlike the latex ankle gastkets, the
socks have the added benefit of being a lot less tight around the
ankle, which means that they are not limiting blood circulation to
your feet. That in itself can make a big difference when it comes to
preventing cold feet.

Where did you find Gore-Tex socks that could be added to a dry suit. I'd
like to add some to mine, since the latex socks that are on it now are
shot.

Just checked my email from that time: I bought them in 2006 from a
German ebay seller. I just tried to see if there is still a brand tag in
there, but looking through the drysuit leg, all I could see is that they
are grey on the inside. Alas, no tags or writing visible.

I remember that I found them online from US sellers as well, but the
high shipping cost made that option less interesting for me. I
deliberately went for a model of sock that had a separate elastic band
in the top to hold it on. I simply undid the stitches, took out that
elastic band and used the extra length to sew it onto the leg of my
drysuit (I used aquaseal to make it watertight). The biggest advantage
is that without the elastic band they don't cinch at the ankles, and you
get a bit of extra material to make attaching them easier.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

I'm 6'2". Having a suit cut "a little long" is never a problem.

--Bob

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Bob Gramann:
I've had this drysuit
(http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...eptid=1174)for 3
seasons
so far. It is the best drysuit I have ever owned. The attached booties
make it easy to get in and out of. It is warm and comfortable, and
because
it is breathable, sweat doesn't condense on the inside. I'm a whitewater
boater, so I can't promise it will be as good in the ocean, but it is a
great suit for whitewater and a good value. One of my friends had a two
piece--it took him a while to get in and a while to get out.

That looks identical to the Kokatat that I use for flat-water
paddling.

There is *nothing* more comfortable or easier to get in/out of.

But for surf, it doesn't work for me. The problem is that the
legs get vacuum bagged when one wipes out and that effect
severely limits motion - especially if the crotch has worked it's
way down a foot or so as it will if the body is cut a little
long. You can wind up in the shore break unable to stand up
until you lay back in the water and wiggle around enough to get
the crotch up where it belongs.

--
PeteCresswell