Politics befrore security...
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:18:02 -0500, Boater wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
I've seen innocent civilians get killed. It's not pretty. It was never,
to
my knowledge, done purposely. Yes, there are bad apples in the military,
but to imply this county purposely kills 'innocent goat herders' is
offensive bull****.

Sometimes people forget. In Vietnam, they were shooting back.

Decision time.

Eisboch

If we weren't stupid enough to get involved in the mess in Vietnam, no one
would have been shooting at us there.

You are quite the Monday morning visionary, aren't you?

Eisboch


After this, it should have been obvious to Kennedy and the presidents
that followed that we had no business supporting the parade of
right-wing dictators in south Vietnam.

The reality is, we shouldn't have picked up where the French left off a
generation earlier.

It's not reverse hindsight to be stating this. There was *nothing*
correct about our involving ourselves in that country. Had the French
not tried to re-established themselves there after WW II, that part of
the world would have been far different. All we did there was make a
mess into a far bigger mess in which *millions* of lives were lost for
nothing.

We should always allow the Chinese to do whatever they want?

Here's a thought for you. The auto industry makes up a significant
percentage of our heavy manufacturing abilities. If we allow it to fail,
and that seems very possible, we will have lost much of our ability to
wage serious war. Not only would we not have the auto plants staffed and
available to manufacture for a war effort, we will have lost most of the
ancillary industries, too.

Do you not think the factories producing Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, etc.
cannot roll over into wartime production?

Hey, I know...we can shop for stuff on...eBay.

You *are* funny!
--
John H.

Politics befrore security...
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.



Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.

Well, I'll be damned. You finally saw the light!

If it weren't describing such a horrific event, it would be funny.

There was nothing funny about it.

--
John H.

Politics befrore security...
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:20:12 -0500, Boater wrote:

Don White wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
When I was young I liked to fight and thought the US should be the
same way. I am now a lot older and a lot wiser.
We need to be a lot more careful where we are willing to spill
American blood and also be careful before we spill other people's
blood. We are far from "untouchable" and you can't kill enough
innocent goat herders to change that. It only makes it worse.

Well said. I agree.

One problem though. The world is always full of new "young" people
going through the same process.
There's no chill pill.

Eisboch
I've always thought we should send the old farts clamoring for war off to
the battlefront first, along with their sons and daughters. In our most
recent lunacy, think how much "cred" Cheney and Rumsfeld and the neocons
would have had if they were shipped over to Iraq in uniform, handed a
rifle and told to lead the way.

We've got a few here like that, too. Their privilege to speak their minds.
But let's see them back that up with action and sacrifice on their part. I
suspect *that* would chill most of the warmongers and if they did go, thin
out some of the bad blood in the gene pool.

Usually, but not always, sending our young people to fight because of the
mistakes of their elders, is wrong. It was the right thing to do in the
case of Bush I, because he knew what the hell he was doing, and did it
mostly right. It was wrong in the case of Bush II for so many reasons
there isn't enough bandwidth to list them all.

No chance...a lot of the big talkers here would squeal & whine like babies
if their income tax was raised to reflect the true cost of the Iraq war.




Most of the warmongers here already squeal and whine like babies.
Imagine them with...a hangnail.

Harry, I realize Don doesn't have the maturity to stop with the personal
insults, but I had thought you might.

Is it really so hard for you?
--
John H.

Politics befrore security...
 

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.



Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.

Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.

Here - skip down to the Vietnam War part - although, here's a couple
of excerpts because I know you won't read it as it directly
contradicts your closely held beliefs.

Tet Offensive:

"Although this attempt to spark a general uprising against the
southern government failed militarily, it turned into a significant
political victory by convincing the American politicians and public
that their commitment to South Vietnam could no longer be open-ended."

"By 1974, serious fighting had broken out between PAVN occupation
forces in South Vietnam and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam
(ARVN). The ARVN held its own successfully during this stage of the
fighting."

"South Vietnamese President Nguy?n Van Thi?u appealed to Nixon for
continued financial aid. Nixon was sympathetic but the U.S. Congress
was not, and the move was blocked. At its peak, U.S. aid to South
Vietnam had reached $30 billion a year. By 1974 it had fallen to $1
billion. Starved of funds, Thi?u's government had difficulty even
paying the wages of its army, and desertions became a problem. On the
other side, the PAVN received billions of dollars in new equipment
from the Soviet Union."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B5...%AAn_Gi%C3%A1p

If it weren't describing such a horrific event, it would be funny.

Nothing about it was funny.

Ok, maybe the part where we watched the 101st Airborne main base at
Bein Hoa engage in a fire fight with one of it's own Forward Artillery
Support Bases was pretty funny as they kept missing each other, but in
general, it wasn't.

Admittedly there was the time a certain group of Marines of my
personal acquaintance swiped a VNA General's jeep and used it to do
donuts and...well, let's just save that story for another time.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

Politics befrore security...
 

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.


Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.

Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.


Tom, Tom, Tom. The "rationale" you supplied doesn't refute my posit that
"we" lost in Vietnam, and the other side won. It's not as if the other
side cheated and won. It won.

What happens when a prizefighter's trainer or corner man throws in the
towel?

We threw in the towel.

We lost.

Politics befrore security...
 

On Dec 5, 8:20*am, Boater wrote:
Don White wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
...
When I was young I liked to fight and thought the US should be the
same way. I am now a lot older and a lot wiser.
We need to be a lot more careful where we are willing to spill
American blood and also be careful before we spill other people's
blood. We are far from "untouchable" and you can't kill enough
innocent goat herders to change that. It only makes it worse.

Well said. *I agree.

One problem though. * The world is always full of new "young" people
going through the same process.
There's no chill pill.

Eisboch
I've always thought we should send the old farts clamoring for war off to
the battlefront first, along with their sons and daughters. In our most
recent lunacy, think how much "cred" Cheney and Rumsfeld and the neocons
would have had if they were shipped over to Iraq in uniform, handed a
rifle and told to lead the way.

We've got a few here like that, too. Their privilege to speak their minds.
But let's see them back that up with action and sacrifice on their part. I
suspect *that* would chill most of the warmongers and if they did go, thin
out some of the bad blood in the gene pool.

Usually, but not always, sending our young people to fight because of the
mistakes of their elders, is wrong. It was the right thing to do in the
case of Bush I, because he knew what the hell he was doing, and did it
mostly right. It was wrong in the case of Bush II for so many reasons
there isn't enough bandwidth to list them all.

No chance...a lot of the big talkers here would squeal & whine like babies
if their income tax was raised to reflect the true cost of the Iraq war..

Most of the warmongers here already squeal and whine like babies.
Imagine them with...a hangnail.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A lot of people that get a hangnail blame it on Bush.

ridiculous.

Politics befrore security...
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.



Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.

Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.

Here - skip down to the Vietnam War part - although, here's a couple
of excerpts because I know you won't read it as it directly
contradicts your closely held beliefs.



Harry's making progress. Last time he dicussed this he proclaimed, "We had
our asses kicked".
Now we simply "gave up".

Eisboch

Politics befrore security...
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.


Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.
Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.

Here - skip down to the Vietnam War part - although, here's a couple
of excerpts because I know you won't read it as it directly
contradicts your closely held beliefs.



Harry's making progress. Last time he dicussed this he proclaimed, "We had
our asses kicked".
Now we simply "gave up".

Eisboch



Same difference. You don't remember the photos of the copters lifting
Americans off rooftops?

Politics befrore security...
 

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.


Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.
Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.

Here - skip down to the Vietnam War part - although, here's a couple
of excerpts because I know you won't read it as it directly
contradicts your closely held beliefs.



Harry's making progress. Last time he dicussed this he proclaimed, "We
had our asses kicked".
Now we simply "gave up".

Eisboch

Same difference. You don't remember the photos of the copters lifting
Americans off rooftops?

I remember it and much more. Apparently it's all you remember.
Forget it. Doesn't matter.
Think what you want.

Eisboch

Politics befrore security...
 

On Dec 5, 5:46*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message

...





Eisboch wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:ar7jj45bqilb8hp18og151a3vrj1812k2t@4ax .com...
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:26:03 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
ry.

And also, after reading further down the thread, Vietnam wasn't lost -
we gave up due to political pressure and dippy hippies who were
'ascared.

Ahhh...we didn't lose in Vietnam...we gave up.
Ah Harry - that's what I like about you - nothing is going to stand in
the way of ideology and "correct" thought.

Here - skip down to the Vietnam War part - although, here's a couple
of excerpts because I know you won't read it as it directly
contradicts your closely held beliefs.

Harry's making progress. *Last time he dicussed this he proclaimed, "We
had our asses kicked".
Now we simply "gave up".

Eisboch

Same difference. You don't remember the photos of the copters lifting
Americans off rooftops?

I remember it and much more. *Apparently it's all you remember.
Forget it. *Doesn't matter.
Think what you want.

Eisboch- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will never know what he really thinks, he is only here to spread
his misery and will say whatever he needs to disrespect anything you/
we find good or honorable... I am not a shrink but I am starting to
believe those who say he has a serious mental problem.. I just can't
imagine someone so hateful and in all my years I can't remember
encountering anyone in such pain. There has to be something or someone
out there who could help, if he would only reach out...