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#11
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Larry wrote:
Thanks, Jack, You bet we're a fringe market! However, this isn't a jetski, it's an actual boat! In fact, one of the finest boats you can buy - Hinckley - uses jet drives. They have the advantage of having nothing hanging below the bottom to get banged up by rocks. Thus, it is uniquely equipped for fishing in shallow water providing you don't suck up mud into the pump! You're right, I just looked at them on the SeaDoo page. No insult intended with my remark about the jetski drivers. The problem is that the steering mechanism for the jet is under water. Thus, any drive which moves the jet also has to be. Nautamatic suggested I replace the steering mechanism with a hydraulic one, but that is close to impossible. Okay, I have a better image now. There aren't any cross sections or manuals on that page though, so I don't have any idea what's "inside the box". There is nothing at all in the way of a moving part in a dry area where a push/pull arm could be attached and an actuator could be mounted? If there was, one of the lighter models that have a hand control box on a cable might could be made to work. Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com) |
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#12
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#13
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:58:50 +0100, Philip wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:17:43 +0100, Philip wrote: "Larry" wrote in message news 
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:45:11 -0400, Jack Erbes wrote:Larry wrote: Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, No friction clutches or drag adjustments on any of the cables or turning spools? Maybe you could add one somewhere. Jack The cable is a single cable - push/pull. Not certain how I could change that in any way. That said, there is no slack in it at all, so I am wondering why rudder feedback is even needed. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/14/05 10:04:52 AM Larry, look at fitting something like the Raymarine ST3000 wheel pilot. This is as fitted to my motorsailer with push-pull steering, and does not need a rudder feedback. Also, the compass unit is in the control head, so only the control head and drive motor fitted, with belt drive to the steering wheel. The ST4000 (I believe) requires a separate compass unit. Go to the Raymarine website for some more information. regards, Philip. Thanks, Philip, Well, I asked Raymarine and they said the ST3000 would not work, nor will any unit they manufacture. He said that use of any autopilot with a jet boat requires something which sends the cpu the actual position of the rudder (jet in my case). Also, it would be extremely difficult to attach a motor to the wheel as there is no room. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/15/05 11:32:52 AM Larry, I hear what they say, but my ST3000 has no feedback or any way of knowing where the rudder is when I engage the drive. It just uses the compass to keep a heading and adjust steering to keep on course. It is a pity it will not fit, but other than this, I don't think the person you spoke to actually knew the unit and its capability properly - if at all. regards, Philip I agree with both. I'm in a bind in that I am willing to spend the money, but ONLY if I can make something that works. I wish there were a way to connect a plain ordinary Sport Pilot to my wheel as it does not require rudder feedback and it will fit. That way I could test and see how bad it really is. Likewise the ST3000. The guy to whom I spoke seemed concerned that a jet boat tends to respond very quickly to changes in the tube (corresponds with a rudder). If there were a way to vary the sensitivity of the unit, I might gamble.... Again, thanks for your help, Philip. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/16/05 9:27:23 PM |
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#14
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:53:34 -0400, Jack Erbes wrote:
....snip You're right, I just looked at them on the SeaDoo page. No insult intended with my remark about the jetski drivers. None taken. The problem is that the steering mechanism for the jet is under water. Thus, any drive which moves the jet also has to be. Nautamatic suggested I replace the steering mechanism with a hydraulic one, but that is close to impossible. Okay, I have a better image now. There aren't any cross sections or manuals on that page though, so I don't have any idea what's "inside the box". There is nothing at all in the way of a moving part in a dry area where a push/pull arm could be attached and an actuator could be mounted? If there was, one of the lighter models that have a hand control box on a cable might could be made to work. Jack No, what happens is that the cable goes through a waterproof connection to the outside which is under water. There the jacket is clamped and a boot is clamped over the movable section. This is below the waterline, but above the bottom of the boat. I.e., the pushpull arm is entirely below the waterline. Inside the engine compartment, there is so little room that you cannot even see the two cables which control steerage and the doughnut without removing the two large plastic pieces which help insulate the engine noise. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/16/05 9:33:30 PM |
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#15
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Please see below.
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:34:16 -0400, Larry wrote: Jack Erbes wrote in news:gaWdnSlacsDilLfeRVn- : Thus, it is uniquely equipped for fishing in shallow water providing you don't suck up mud into the pump! MUD isn't the problem. This Sport Jet ISN'T the kind of jet for shallow water fishing, like the Australians produce. If the smallest rock gets sucked up through that intake grate and lodges between the spinning impeller and the VERY CLOSELY POSITIONED stator vanes behind it, the right- angle gearcase in the pump simply is torn apart before the pin shears. You might as well throw the pump away. A new complete Sport Jet is cheaper. Mud isn't any problem at all, nor is weeds, all of which are soft. I added the "Salad Shooter" intake grate Merc makes to replace the cheap one the OEMs buy. This grate opens to allow weeds to be sucked into the pump and VOILA! World's Largest Salad Shooter comes shooting out the back. Take a former Sport Jet owner's advise, for your own good. DON'T LET THAT INTAKE GRATE GET ANYWHERE WITHIN THREE FEET OF THE BOTTOM, even in mud! There's always that little rock or other piece of hard crap in there that will just make your Sport Jet ownership SUCK! Well, a few things have changed since you owned your boat. The grate on the bottom is stainless steel, very heavy duty, and hinged. I have owned this boat for three years now. Last year I went too close to a mud bottom and managed to get the pump plugged. I was at the south end of a 37 mile lake with my truck and trailer at the north end. It was 3:30 pm and the maximum speed I could make was 5 mph! I tried all the tricks in the owners manual. Nothing worked. Finally, in desperation, I gave it full throttle and after a small explosion, out came the mud and weeds. This year, I experienced a problem similar to what you mention. I was launching on a small lake with a rocky bottom. There was a strong wind which kept pushing me back to shore. Before I could get far enough away, but with the engine running, I was grounded and a few small rocks were sucked up past the grate (it is hinged, although I don't know why). It shut the engine down. We pulled the boat out with the trailer and I used all manner of tools. The grate is held on by two SS hex bolts and two fasteners whose name escapes me only they are VERY non standard. The heads are similar to those found on some automobiles - star shaped but otherwise like a hex key. I was able to get all of the rocks out finally and everything has worked since. Question - When was the last time you had the stator off the pump to change the rear bearing lube oil and carefully inspect the shaft seal that keeps the water out of the poorly-designed bearing? Ever seen its guts? I learned how from a Merc mechanic. When he took it apart, we found the shaft seal GONE! The damned Mercury Platinum Dealer's expert mechanic didn't seat it properly and the shaft just tore it off, running the bearing on seawater, sand and what little oil didn't leak out. I learned how to do it myself so it wouldn't happen again. Your dealer hasn't a clue about Sport Jets and DOESN'T WANT TO KNOW.... He fixes OUTBOARDS. There is no stator, only a shaft with a rotor on it. If you take it apart, be SURE to put grease on the 4 stainless bolts that screw into the cheap aluminum housing.....OR THEY'LL SEIZE! It took us over an hour to work them loose without breaking them off INSIDE the housing. My mechanic gave up. I took R-22 refrigerant and froze the bolt to -50 C by dripping liquid freon onto the bolt head, shrinking the whole bolt. That was the only way it will come off. DON'T LET THEM HEAT IT WITH A TORCH as it will really screw up the Merc paint job and ruin the pump. Freezing the bolts, then working them back and forth, got mine off. They were hard seized! STUPID DEALERS! The grease keeps the electrolysis from INSIDE the bolt holes just fine. The housing is stainless steel. You still want to protect the bolts going in, but they use something like blue loctite to prevent their vibrating out. You couldn't separate the pump from the engine without taking the engine out of the boat. That would be really difficult - I hope I never have to do that. I don't think there is a rear seal, instead a shaft comes down vertically from the engine and engages a right angle drive which turns the pump rotor. Just a few hints. I loved my Sport Jet, the 175hp carb'd model. Mine was a Sea Rayder F16XR2 16' yellow with purple bimini. Chick magnet! Mine is very pretty as well, but I'd like it more if it were a better boat! Oh, one more hint to save your Sport Jet....... Take the flywheel off the top of it with a proper puller. The core of the stator coils (about $300 at a dealer) is OPEN TO THE WET! Idiots....My first one rusted solid, shorting out the magnetic fields and stranding me with no spark! Before yours rusts solid, and it will, GREASE the surface of the soft iron cores wherever you can see them around where the magnets whirl around the outside of them. Grease up the inside of the flywheel, too, to keep the magnets from corroding all up. The new core, an aftermarket product better than Mercury's, never rusted or corroded at all coated with a nice layer of marine grease....(c; The guy I sold it to has never had a problem with it in 2 years. I've never had the plastic top off, but this uses EFI so it might not be the same engine. I have to say, however, that the first engine I had died after 3 weeks leaving me stranded in the middle of a (thankfully very popular) lake. I got a tow to shore. It turned out that one of the fuel injectors broke inside the engine scarring up the head and gouging a cylinder wall. Merc wanted to fix it, but I had my dealer insist and they replaced the entire engine. Well, that's what he said, but it turned out to be what we used to call a "short block" and one of the air injectors was bad as well. They fixed that, but it took over a month and the season is short here. The dealer loaned me a bigger boat while this went on, thank goodness. Remove the chinzy oil injection made out of PLASTIC and all its plumbing. The hole the pump fits into has a cover plate you can get from the dealer for free after you remove the gear drive. Every new powerhead has this coverplate on it and dealers just toss them away as they re-install the oil injection nightmare. Mix your fuel at 40:1, oil company brands TC-W3. 1 quart to every 10 gallons of gas...or close to that, not critical. After a thousand hours of running premix gas, the inside of the cylinders is barely worn, the rings still real tight and in good condition and all the bearings in the crankcase are LUBED, not dry like 100:1 oil injection the way the greenies and government bureaucrats want them. The new owner still mixes oil at 40:1 in the tank and at 1600 hours on a 1997 Sport Jet it purrs like a kitten. LOTS of powerheads are blown by oil injection failures, STILL! Thanks for the tip, but with EFI, you don't even use regular oil, it must be synthetic. This stuff ain't cheap! This year it was $38.00/gallon. Every mechanic has told me NOT to use regular oil - that it will damage the engine. The oil injectors are metal, not plastic, btw. If any injector fails, there is a warning system that lets you know. There is a computer similar to those on automobiles on this engine. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/16/05 9:38:03 PM |
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#16
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Larry wrote in :
There is no stator, only a shaft with a rotor on it. The stator is behind the impeller. It is necessary to stop the rotational flow of the water and redirect the thrust straight out the nozzle. They are fixed vanes around the housing of the rear shaft bearing, the back of which is a cone into the center of the nozzle to increase pressure and flow speed. -- Larry |
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#17
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Larry wrote in :
The housing is stainless steel. You still want to protect the bolts going in, but they use something like blue loctite to prevent their vibrating out. You couldn't separate the pump from the engine without taking the engine out of the boat. That would be really difficult - I hope I never have to do that. I don't think there is a rear seal, instead a shaft comes down vertically from the engine and engages a right angle drive which turns the pump rotor. The bearing I'm talking about is AFT of the impeller, running in a high pressure zone in the impeller's outlet. The seal is on the forward end of the stator vanes, right behind the impeller. This bearing, by the way, is necessary to hold the impeller straight in the hole it sits in, keeping it from touching the walls around it. I still doubt old Brunswick made a pump out of solid stainless steel. Noone could afford to buy that much machine work. It might have a stainless sleeve inside the pump around the impeller jetskiiers call a "wear ring". "Things" in the water get wedged between the impeller and its wear ring which is what causes the circular gouges you see in the pump. The rear bearing still requires maintenance...as does its pump bearing seal. Order the service manual from the dealer or Merc and do it very carefully. -- Larry |
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#18
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Larry wrote in :
I've never had the plastic top off, but this uses EFI so it might not be the same engine. I have to say, however, that the first engine I had died after 3 weeks leaving me stranded in the middle of a (thankfully very popular) lake. I got a tow to shore. It turned out that one of the fuel injectors broke inside the engine scarring up the head and gouging a cylinder wall. Merc wanted to fix it, but I had my dealer insist and they replaced the entire engine. Well, that's what he said, but it turned out to be what we used to call a "short block" and one of the air injectors was bad as well. They fixed that, but it took over a month and the season is short here. The dealer loaned me a bigger boat while this went on, thank goodness. God, how awful! Is this thing a Ficht or Merc's abortion of it? I was under the impression they were using manifold fuel injection, not that awful direct 2-stroke injection that bankrupted OMC and nearly Brunswick. I'd NEVER own one of those! If this had happened to me, I'd have been talking about a refund, not a repair. Sure glad mine was a regular 2-stroke V-6 with carbs they'd been making since 1983.... -- Larry |
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#19
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Larry wrote in :
Thanks for the tip, but with EFI, you don't even use regular oil, it must be synthetic. This stuff ain't cheap! This year it was $38.00/gallon. Every mechanic has told me NOT to use regular oil - that it will damage the engine. The oil injectors are metal, not plastic, btw. If any injector fails, there is a warning system that lets you know. There is a computer similar to those on automobiles on this engine. -- Yecch....no thanks. My local See Doo Doo dealer is a crook so it's not an issue here. I'd never buy one of those awful direct injection two strokes with all their history of failures. You might be interested in a little bit of FEDERAL law I learned all about when returning to that same crooked ******* my 1997 Yamaha GP1200 waverunner. The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Protection Act has a clause in it that says: "(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if— (1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and (2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest." 15USC50 section 2302 (c)......current as of today. If they tell you you MUST use their brand of some special oil, and the Federal Trade Commission hasn't given them a waiver to weasle out of this law, they Brunswick has to GIVE YOU THE OIL FREE for the life of the product. It's Federal Law.... That's why Ford doesn't tell you you MUST use Motorcraft Oil to keep a Ford warranty in force. The law was designed to prevent deception. If pressed properly, you can probably get the ripoff $38/gallon oil FREE! Of course, they'll all try the bully bull**** first....(c; -- Larry |
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#20
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"Larry" wrote in message ... On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:58:50 +0100, Philip wrote: "Larry" wrote in message ... On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:17:43 +0100, Philip wrote: "Larry" wrote in message news
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:45:11 -0400, Jack Erbes wrote:Larry wrote: Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, No friction clutches or drag adjustments on any of the cables or turning spools? Maybe you could add one somewhere. Jack The cable is a single cable - push/pull. Not certain how I could change that in any way. That said, there is no slack in it at all, so I am wondering why rudder feedback is even needed. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/14/05 10:04:52 AM Larry, look at fitting something like the Raymarine ST3000 wheel pilot. This is as fitted to my motorsailer with push-pull steering, and does not need a rudder feedback. Also, the compass unit is in the control head, so only the control head and drive motor fitted, with belt drive to the steering wheel. The ST4000 (I believe) requires a separate compass unit. Go to the Raymarine website for some more information. regards, Philip. Thanks, Philip, Well, I asked Raymarine and they said the ST3000 would not work, nor will any unit they manufacture. He said that use of any autopilot with a jet boat requires something which sends the cpu the actual position of the rudder (jet in my case). Also, it would be extremely difficult to attach a motor to the wheel as there is no room. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/15/05 11:32:52 AM Larry, I hear what they say, but my ST3000 has no feedback or any way of knowing where the rudder is when I engage the drive. It just uses the compass to keep a heading and adjust steering to keep on course. It is a pity it will not fit, but other than this, I don't think the person you spoke to actually knew the unit and its capability properly - if at all. regards, Philip I agree with both. I'm in a bind in that I am willing to spend the money, but ONLY if I can make something that works. I wish there were a way to connect a plain ordinary Sport Pilot to my wheel as it does not require rudder feedback and it will fit. That way I could test and see how bad it really is. Likewise the ST3000. The guy to whom I spoke seemed concerned that a jet boat tends to respond very quickly to changes in the tube (corresponds with a rudder). If there were a way to vary the sensitivity of the unit, I might gamble.... Again, thanks for your help, Philip. -- Larry email is rapp at lmr dot com 09/16/05 9:27:23 PM Larry, have a read of page 59 of http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/S...3000_wheel.pdf Maybe it will allow you to set it to either fast or slow response. My motor-sailer has a very quick response to the wheel, and the ST3000 copes perfectly - except when I am sailing with a quarter or following wind. But then again, I have a problem steering with that angle of wind!! regards, and I hope you find something that will work Philip, |
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