Doug Dotson wrote:
How does this relate to soldering? I'm not sure that removing the soldering
iron
from a freshly soldered joint qualifies as quick cooling.


Annealing does not require quick cooling, but it can be helpful. The
copper can be allowed to air cool (as would happen in soldering) and it
will relieve work hardening. Plunging it into cold water seems to
soften it more, causes any soot or scale to fall off, and lets you get
right back to work on it.

My comment comes from things I did in the shop as a machinist and
metalworker and are based on actual experience. I did not agree with
his rather broad and general first comment, it is that simple.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Sailct41 wrote:

Off topic but part of the discussion on wires,

Replying to the vibration part of the earlier discussion, we have a 46'
parabolic dish that moves at 15 degrees per second and we continiously have
the crimp connector fail on a bi-yearly basis. We have done engineering
studies with solid wire, braided wire, soldered connectors and crimped
connectors but they all failed. The solid conductor seemed to fail earlier.
We think it is weird and have replaced the entire cable harness twice (cost
was in the hundred of thousands) but the problem continues. Our other 46'
antennas do not have this problem.

This is simple, the worker is not holding his mouth right while
assembling the harness. Meindert will want to insist that it is caused
by bad juju but I don't agree. :)

Actually, I am thinking that some vibration must be reaching the
connection and wondering how well the cable is supported and how close
to the connector. And there may be some issues with cyclical heating
and cooling.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:fIm3e.2804$ZV5.253@fed1read05...
I would need to see a reference on that Meindert. There are of course
copper embrittlement mechanisms. But I don't believe any of them work at
soldering temperatures.

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm

The mechanism of which I am aware is simple work hardening when a flexing
section works against one rigidized by solder. Easily handled by support
of
the wire. There is a 75 year history of high quality military style
connectors using solder to mate wire to connector pins. This mechanism is
routinely used in high stress situations.

In these applications, there is always a strain relief on the connector. CSA
rules also specify that soldered joints MUST have an extra mechanical
connection.

I know of no concerns with
embrittlement...just the need to support the wire mechanically.

Hydrogen embrittlement is generally considered to occur at temperatures
much
higher than soldering.

I think the quoted article says otherwise.

Meindert

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:fIm3e.2804$ZV5.253@fed1read05...
I would need to see a reference on that Meindert. There are of course
copper embrittlement mechanisms. But I don't believe any of them work at
soldering temperatures.

http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm

The mechanism of which I am aware is simple work hardening when a flexing
section works against one rigidized by solder. Easily handled by support
of
the wire. There is a 75 year history of high quality military style
connectors using solder to mate wire to connector pins. This mechanism
is
routinely used in high stress situations.

In these applications, there is always a strain relief on the connector.
CSA
rules also specify that soldered joints MUST have an extra mechanical
connection.

I know of no concerns with
embrittlement...just the need to support the wire mechanically.

Hydrogen embrittlement is generally considered to occur at temperatures
much
higher than soldering.

I think the quoted article says otherwise.

Meindert


You got the wrong article? That one does not mention the subject of
embrittlement or anything that goes on at solder temperatures. Try again...

Jim

In article ,
"Sailct41" wrote:

Off topic but part of the discussion on wires,

Replying to the vibration part of the earlier discussion, we have a 46'
parabolic dish that moves at 15 degrees per second and we continiously have
the crimp connector fail on a bi-yearly basis. We have done engineering
studies with solid wire, braided wire, soldered connectors and crimped
connectors but they all failed. The solid conductor seemed to fail earlier.
We think it is weird and have replaced the entire cable harness twice (cost
was in the hundred of thousands) but the problem continues. Our other 46'
antennas do not have this problem.

Why in the world would one need to swing a " 46' " parabolic dish
15degrees/sec????

Do you actually mean 46" as in Inches or do you really mean 46' as in
feet?

there seems to be some ambiguity in your post. Inquiring minds would
certainly like to know.....


Me

"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:xJC3e.2870$ZV5.2727@fed1read05...
You got the wrong article? That one does not mention the subject of
embrittlement or anything that goes on at solder temperatures. Try
again...

5th paragraph under "Annealing":

"When annealing copper that contains oxygen, the hydrogen in the atmosphere
must be kept to a minimum to avoid embrittlement. For temperatures lower
than about 480oC, hydrogen preferably should not exceed 1%."

And soldering happens at temperatures lower than 480oC, right?

Meindert

Your kidding right? You really believe soldering leads to a hydrogen rich
atmosphere? You really think that solder temperatures actually make a
detectable difference in the ductility of the copper? You think all copper
wires near batteries are doomed to failure...and soon?

Tell us it ain't so Meindert...you are supposed to be on the competent side
of these discussions.

Jim

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:xJC3e.2870$ZV5.2727@fed1read05...
You got the wrong article? That one does not mention the subject of
embrittlement or anything that goes on at solder temperatures. Try
again...

5th paragraph under "Annealing":

"When annealing copper that contains oxygen, the hydrogen in the
atmosphere
must be kept to a minimum to avoid embrittlement. For temperatures lower
than about 480oC, hydrogen preferably should not exceed 1%."

And soldering happens at temperatures lower than 480oC, right?

Meindert

I mean 46 feet. The cable in question is the brake status cable that
reports when the brake is on.

You need to swing a dish that fast when you are tracking a satellite or
space shuttle going very close to overhead at a relatively low altitude
(100-300 Nautical Miles). Our old antennas have to swing 15 degrees per
second in azimuth to keep up. What is truely impressive is to watch one of
our 60 foot antennas (220,000 bearing weight) move at those speeds. We are
currentily intalling smaller 13 Meter dishes that will not have to move so
fast in azimuth due to a 15 degree bend in the antenna riser that moves so
you can avoid the "Keyhole" (when a satellite comes overhead) tracking
problems.
"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Sailct41" wrote:

Off topic but part of the discussion on wires,

Replying to the vibration part of the earlier discussion, we have a 46'
parabolic dish that moves at 15 degrees per second and we continiously
have
the crimp connector fail on a bi-yearly basis. We have done engineering
studies with solid wire, braided wire, soldered connectors and crimped
connectors but they all failed. The solid conductor seemed to fail
earlier.
We think it is weird and have replaced the entire cable harness twice
(cost
was in the hundred of thousands) but the problem continues. Our other
46'
antennas do not have this problem.

Why in the world would one need to swing a " 46' " parabolic dish
15degrees/sec????

Do you actually mean 46" as in Inches or do you really mean 46' as in
feet?

there seems to be some ambiguity in your post. Inquiring minds would
certainly like to know.....


Me

In article ,
"Sailct41" wrote:

I mean 46 feet. The cable in question is the brake status cable that
reports when the brake is on.

You need to swing a dish that fast when you are tracking a satellite or
space shuttle going very close to overhead at a relatively low altitude
(100-300 Nautical Miles). Our old antennas have to swing 15 degrees per
second in azimuth to keep up. What is truely impressive is to watch one of
our 60 foot antennas (220,000 bearing weight) move at those speeds. We are
currentily intalling smaller 13 Meter dishes that will not have to move so
fast in azimuth due to a 15 degree bend in the antenna riser that moves so
you can avoid the "Keyhole" (when a satellite comes overhead) tracking
problems.

That is totally Bull****....there is no way that one would need to
traverse 15 degrees/Sec to track anything in LEO....... Do the math,
if one were to track an object in LEO from horizon to horizon over
flat ground and directly overhead, that would be 12 seconds at 15
degrees/sec. The velocity of escape from earth orbit is in the range of
17,000 Mph so if one were moving faster you would leave earth orbit.
Now figure what the delta of the traverse in Degrees/second for an
object in LEO at max speed of 17000 Mph. It is certainly a magnitude
slower than 15 degrees/sec. Any Ham radio operator that tracks Sat's can
tell you that LEO Sats, even on overhead Passes take upwards of 10
minutes, to complete a transvers. Farther up in altitude only slows the
traverse. any lower and you would not be in orbit, but would enter the
atmosphere. Get real, Dufus...... Math surely isn't YOUR Friend....


Me who at least can do the math....

"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:g%H3e.2901$ZV5.1227@fed1read05...
Your kidding right? You really believe soldering leads to a hydrogen rich
atmosphere?

I don't know. I just mentioned that hydrogen *could* be released from flux.
I do know that one way of preventing copper to oxidize while soldering, is
to create an environment without oxygen but *with* a hydrogen or ammonia
atmosphere, to convert any copper oxides back to copper.

Meindert