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Tinned wire
I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway....
I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that is a different issue. So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the wire again in 15 years. Steve |
"Steve" wrote in message ... I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway.... I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that is a different issue. So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the wire again in 15 years. Steve If the ends of the wire can be sealed from moisture then non-tinned wires will work fine. I've seen corroded wire up more than a foot under the insulation. If tinned wires is used then one can use crimped connectors without sealing the ends. Doug |
Steve wrote:
I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway.... I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that is a different issue. So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the wire again in 15 years. Steve I had a similarly aged boat and the older wire varied a lot when removed. Some of the wire was black with corrosion, some was just a little dull, and some was shiny. More exposed wire, or wire where wicking from outside fixtures was possible tended to suffer more. Is tinned wire necessary? Probably not inside the boat for non-critical systems like cabin lights. For instruments, and navigation lights I'd say bite the bullet and use tinned wire. But do shop around. Many makers of tinned wire sell spools of wire for a lot less than Ancor at the local West Marine! One fellow regularly sells on ebay. Oh, on my boat all new wire is going to be tinned. Thankfully the electrical system currently consists of 4 lights, 2 nav lights (tricolour and masthead), a VHF, GPS, and depthsounder. It's rather spartan right now in the electrical department. Evan Gatehouse |
One thing I have noticed after working with several brands is that marine
grade wire is built up from much smaller strands than the standard wire you get at Home Despot. That makes them more flexable and less prone to fatigue breaks. If you do some looking you can find some great deals of marine wire. I figure I have more than a mile of wire in Rutu and have never paid much more than 50% of list price. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Hello Steve,
You have my sympathy. Getting the quantitative data you're looking for seems near impossible. To my understanding, admittedly subject to recalibration, neither the USCG nor the ABYC standard requires tinned copper conductors. The ads often read "our tinned copper wire meets ABYC standards" suggesting that tinning is part of the standard, when the conformance reference is technically to stranding, insulation, and color! We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are non-conductive. Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces corrosion" mantra. Good luck Chuck Steve wrote: I realize that this might be a prompt for lots of argument but anyway.... I have just started rewiring the 12V side of my boat. While ripping out the miles of cable that seemed to power big blobs of ancient insulating tape I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. The insulation is a different matter in some cases. It is in a poor state, especially were it is exposed to heat or sun but that is a different issue. So the question is: Is tinned copper really necessary? It is more than twice the price of pure copper and has the same insulation! I am prepared for quotes from various recommendations and standards (many of which I have read) but what I would really like is some real empirical engineering info here. I have been involved in standards bodies and know how they work. Good ideas can very easily become mandatory requirements because it could be critical in some obscure cases. I was trained as an engineer which is to say I can live with the concept of good enough for purpose. If the life expectancy of pure copper is half that of tinned and tinned will last 30+ years, I can live with having to change the wire again in 15 years. Steve |
In article , chuck
wrote: We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are non-conductive. Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces corrosion" mantra. Good luck Chuck also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for Salt Water vapors. Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back...... -- add a 2 before @ |
Good point but unfortunately the only wire of sufficient conductor area
(16+mm^2) I have been able to find that goes anywhere need the batteries is just untinned copper. In this case I have used welding cable because it has better insulation than other stuff I have found. I have also sealed the ends well. If the stuff I am talking about here (1-2 mm^2 from the dis panel) is getting battery fumes I am in real trouble! Bruce in Alaska wrote: In article , chuck wrote: We know that tin oxidizes more slowly than copper, and that the copper oxides that form when copper corrodes are non-conductive. Beyond that, all I can find are anecdotal and largely unscientific reports, and the "tinned copper reduces corrosion" mantra. Good luck Chuck also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for Salt Water vapors. Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back...... |
All,
Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine cable are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors as well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection. For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition. Thanks again, Steve |
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"Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine cable are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors as well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection. From what I have read, solder and crimping is not a good idea. Soldering is not neccesary when using a proper crimp connector. Soldering has a number of drawbacks. A good crimp connection that is sealed against moisture is about as good as it gets. For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition. Thanks again, Steve |
Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is
thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. I think I will continue to use the untinned wire (bargains on marine cable are not common in NZ) but seal the ends as suggested. I am aware of the issue with fatigue if the copper is too thick and so will use something with lots of thin strands. I also solder all the small crimp connectors as well as crimp them which I believe will offer some protection. From what I have read, solder and crimping is not a good idea. Soldering is not neccesary when using a proper crimp connector. Soldering has a number of drawbacks. A good crimp connection that is sealed against moisture is about as good as it gets. For the nav lights (front, back and mast) I an leaving the existing wire in place as it is tinned and in excellent condition. Thanks again, Steve |
In article ,
Larry W4CSC wrote: Bruce in Alaska wrote in news:bruceg- : also be advised that Copper wire in the presents of Battery Acid fumes corrodes extremely quickly into copper sulfate, (Blue Powder) and that doesn't conduct electricity very well at all. The tin plating provides a good protection from this type of corrosion, the same as it does for Salt Water vapors. Bruce in alaska also a retired chemist, from way, way back...... There you go, Bruce....ruining good towing jobs when the cheapskates' wiring rots through putting them in the dark.....(c; Keep an eye out behind you! One of those tow guys may take a pot shot!! I live so far out that we only have had one "Float By" sooting in the last 15 years, and they were not shooting at me, just the neighbors 5 miles down the beach......... Bruce in alaska who does actually live out in the alaskan bush..... -- add a 2 before @ |
"Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
Steve wrote: I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust. Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like extension cord wire. So it can happen, at least in small gage wire. |
On 27 Mar 2005 18:41:57 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust. Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like extension cord wire. So it can happen, at least in small gage wire. ======================================== And larger at times. I once had a similar condition with the shield braid on a coax cable. Apparently the outer insulation had developed a pin hole leak allowing moisture to enter. The copper braid in that section had turned to green powder and was totally non-conductive. I'd vote for tinned wire if longevity, reliability and low maintenance are a future concern. |
Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never
solder battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the use of a blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you would probably do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and melting the insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double layer heatshrink (the sort with glue inside). The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an additional seal for the whole. Doug Dotson wrote: "Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
"Steve" wrote in message ... Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never solder battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the use of a blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you would probably do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and melting the insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double layer heatshrink (the sort with glue inside). Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an additional seal for the whole. See my previous comment about the research done by NASA back in the 70's or 80's. Doug Dotson wrote: "Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
Interesting. Was the wire exposed to the elements? I have a navman wind
instrument which is all cabled with navman cables which I don't think are tinned. It is very well insulated though with several layers of different screening and insulation. However, it is quite new and if it lasts 30 years I would not be too upset. After all in 30 years time how call will the new technology be! Does make me worry about the big multi-core wire in the mast though. This is the only one I could not dury rig in a few minutes if there is a failure. It is tinned and well insulated but - as you say - looking at the condition of the ends is no indication that its integrity as a whole. Does anyone ever double wire (dual redundacy)? Thanks for the info. Mark wrote: Steve wrote: I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust. Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like extension cord wire. So it can happen, at least in small gage wire. |
"Mark" wrote in message ups.com... Steve wrote: I have noticed that the continued wire seems to have survived well. i.e. the boat is 20 years old and the original stuff is which was mainly continued is fine. I can see no signs of corrosion even after stripping large lengths. Had the 30 year old windspeed meter on my sailboat cease working recently. Investigation revealed the 60 foot sensor wire had a break in it somewhere. Connections looked OK. No visual sign of damage, but cutting it in about the middle revealed black crumbs instead of copper wire. Turns out entire lengths of the wire had corroded to dust. Probably had worked so long because it was only handling a half volt or so AC signal. It was non-tinned and had lousy insulation, sort of like extension cord wire. So it can happen, at least in small gage wire. 30 year old wire isn't a good example. Most 30 year old people are a bit corroded inside :) |
Wayne.B wrote in
: And larger at times. I once had a similar condition with the shield braid on a coax cable. Apparently the outer insulation had developed a pin hole leak allowing moisture to enter. The copper braid in that section had turned to green powder and was totally non-conductive. I have never seen a piece of plastic covered coax cable like RG-58 that DIDN'T have water ingestion if laying in water for any length of time. It always eats the shield away...salt or not. If you MUST run coax through the bilge, like to get to the mast, one great way to prevent ingestion is to run the coax through a piece of nylon water line, the kind used to hook up the house water source to the ice maker in the refridgerator, that's just big enough to pass the unconnectored coax through as a sort of flexible, sealed conduit through the bilgewater area. Seal it on both ends with 3M 5200 forever. It now has virtually no airspace to breathe in and condensate water and the water line is impervious to the oil, grease, gook, amazing biological species and seawater in the bilge....(c; Small nylon airhose is also great, but it usually comes in a self-coiling section, now, not a straight piece like the water line. |
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
: Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. My little MAPP gas torch did a fine job heating Lionheart's battery terminals for soldering. There was very little wicking because the #0 cable strands are quite a bit larger than hookup wire strands. The soldered connection is a neat, very strong and very low resistance connection. You can pick up an L-16 by picking up its cable with this solder connection. Try that with your crimp connector. Soldering maximizes the contact surface area as far as it can be. Crimping only makes contact with a tiny outside edge of the outside conductors only, nearly a point contact but with some length down the hole. Cold solder joints are the ones that "crack"....not properly soldered joints which are stronger than the wire, itself. |
Steve wrote in :
Does make me worry about the big multi-core wire in the mast though. Cables hung vertically in the mast drain very quickly and are not exposed to submersion. Where the mistakes are made is where they come out of the mast at the top. Instead of allowing the cable to have a drip loop so the cable doesn't become a path for rain and spray to ingest water into the mast, the neatnicks try to see how much of the cable they can hide by making it as short as possible. Then the water runs down the cable into the hole, instead of dropping harmlessly off the drip loop that should have been there. It doesn't have to be a full loop....just a sag in the cable just before it enters the hole so the water can drip off... |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. My little MAPP gas torch did a fine job heating Lionheart's battery terminals for soldering. There was very little wicking because the #0 cable strands are quite a bit larger than hookup wire strands. The soldered connection is a neat, very strong and very low resistance connection. You can pick up an L-16 by picking up its cable with this solder connection. Try that with your crimp connector. Picking up a battery by the cables isn;t a terribly good practice, although a good crip should be able to do it as well. Soldering maximizes the contact surface area as far as it can be. Crimping only makes contact with a tiny outside edge of the outside conductors only, nearly a point contact but with some length down the hole. Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Cold solder joints are the ones that "crack"....not properly soldered joints which are stronger than the wire, itself. Not according to the research I have seen in the past. Perhaps that has changed in the past few years. |
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
: Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed......and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. |
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:57:15 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote: "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed......and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. with a properly crimped connector the wire becomes one solid mass throughout. regards Gary |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. |
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't think you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So you go on faith or solder. I'd solder. When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some interface still exists. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous. If however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking dimensions present. Jim Donohue |
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:Obq2e.895$ZV5.546@fed1read05... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't think you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So you go on faith or solder. I'd solder. Generally a high quality crimping tool will produce a good crimp. When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some interface still exists. Of course. Anything further would be pretty difficult to acheive. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous. If however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking dimensions present. Doesn;t matter if the crimped joint is sealed. Jim Donohue |
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:Obq2e.895$ZV5.546@fed1read05... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't think you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So you go on faith or solder. I'd solder. When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some interface still exists. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous. If however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking dimensions present. Jim Donohue Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the amount of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the weak point. Solder vs. crimp is one of those emotional issues like abortion, guns, religion, etc. Everybody has their closely held beliefs that they will not abandon. |
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
: abortion, guns, religion Shhhh! Geez, don't even type those words on usenet! It's liable to EXPLODE!!....(c; |
Doug Dotson wrote:
Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the amount of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the weak point. I've made the experience that with soldered joints the cable brakes easier as the solder hardens a section of it where it would be otherwise flexible. When it get's moved around suddenly it the conductor breaks a couple of mm of the solder joint. With crimping this does not happen. Markus |
"Markus Baertschi" wrote in message
... Doug Dotson wrote: Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the amount of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the weak point. I've made the experience that with soldered joints the cable brakes easier as the solder hardens a section of it where it would be otherwise flexible. When it get's moved around suddenly it the conductor breaks a couple of mm of the solder joint. With crimping this does not happen. Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it is heated. Meindert |
Meindert Sprang wrote:
snip Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it is heated. Meindert Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better generally) anneals it and restores the workability. That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing qualities can be restored by annealing. Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com) |
"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
... Meindert Sprang wrote: snip Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it is heated. Meindert Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better generally) anneals it and restores the workability. You are partly right. Heating a metal above its recrystalization temperature softens it. For copper, you're talking about at least 480 degrees Celcius. When copper is heated below this temperature (soldering), the remaining oygen in the copper can react with hydrogen (possibly released by heating flux?) causing embittlement of the copper. That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing qualities can be restored by annealing. Yes, but with a soldering iron, you'll never reach that temperature, generally Meindert |
How does this relate to soldering? I'm not sure that removing the soldering
iron from a freshly soldered joint qualifies as quick cooling. Doug "Jack Erbes" wrote in message ... Meindert Sprang wrote: snip Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it is heated. Meindert Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better generally) anneals it and restores the workability. That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing qualities can be restored by annealing. Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com) |
I would need to see a reference on that Meindert. There are of course
copper embrittlement mechanisms. But I don't believe any of them work at soldering temperatures. The mechanism of which I am aware is simple work hardening when a flexing section works against one rigidized by solder. Easily handled by support of the wire. There is a 75 year history of high quality military style connectors using solder to mate wire to connector pins. This mechanism is routinely used in high stress situations. I know of no concerns with embrittlement...just the need to support the wire mechanically. Hydrogen embrittlement is generally considered to occur at temperatures much higher than soldering. I think you need a reference or two... Jim Donohue "Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ... "Jack Erbes" wrote in message ... Meindert Sprang wrote: snip Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it is heated. Meindert .. You are partly right. Heating a metal above its recrystalization temperature softens it. For copper, you're talking about at least 480 degrees Celcius. When copper is heated below this temperature (soldering), the remaining oygen in the copper can react with hydrogen (possibly released by heating flux?) causing embittlement of the copper. That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing qualities can be restored by annealing. Yes, but with a soldering iron, you'll never reach that temperature, generally Meindert |
you guys are hurting my head worse then the micro miniture soldering school
I went to when I was in the Nav. I suspect that we all agree that keeping it clean and sealed is the key and soldering or crimping is probably a preference much like choosing a Westsail or a J-boat and I wont say what my preference is. Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. |
Off topic but part of the discussion on wires,
Replying to the vibration part of the earlier discussion, we have a 46' parabolic dish that moves at 15 degrees per second and we continiously have the crimp connector fail on a bi-yearly basis. We have done engineering studies with solid wire, braided wire, soldered connectors and crimped connectors but they all failed. The solid conductor seemed to fail earlier. We think it is weird and have replaced the entire cable harness twice (cost was in the hundred of thousands) but the problem continues. Our other 46' antennas do not have this problem. "Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:Obq2e.895$ZV5.546@fed1read05... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't think you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So you go on faith or solder. I'd solder. When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some interface still exists. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous. If however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking dimensions present. Jim Donohue |
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