"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:Obq2e.895$ZV5.546@fed1read05...

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of
the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area.



Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact
with
the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you
put
on the inner conductors.

Just not true.

Soldering makes contact with every strand on all
the surface area that's exposed.

True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will
compromise
it over time.

.....and properly soldered, prevents
exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions.

Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick.
A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long
time.



Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't
think you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So
you go on faith or solder. I'd solder.

When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some
interface still exists. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous.
If however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking
dimensions present.

Jim Donohue
Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the amount
of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several
times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the
weak point. Solder vs. crimp is one of those emotional issues like abortion,
guns, religion, etc. Everybody has their closely held beliefs that they
will
not abandon.

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

abortion,
guns, religion

Shhhh! Geez, don't even type those words on usenet! It's liable to
EXPLODE!!....(c;

Doug Dotson wrote:
Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the amount
of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several
times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the
weak point.

I've made the experience that with soldered joints the cable brakes
easier as the solder hardens a section of it where it would be otherwise
flexible. When it get's moved around suddenly it the conductor breaks a
couple of mm of the solder joint. With crimping this does not happen.

Markus

"Markus Baertschi" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson wrote:
Just one more thought. In a reasonably well crimped connection, the
amount
of contact area between the wire and the connector exceeds by several
times the cross sectional area of the wire itself. The crimp is not the
weak point.

I've made the experience that with soldered joints the cable brakes
easier as the solder hardens a section of it where it would be otherwise
flexible. When it get's moved around suddenly it the conductor breaks a
couple of mm of the solder joint. With crimping this does not happen.

Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it
is heated.

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:
snip
Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when it
is heated.

Meindert

Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most
other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better
generally) anneals it and restores the workability.

That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are
heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in
use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing
qualities can be restored by annealing.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Meindert Sprang wrote:
snip
Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when
it
is heated.

Meindert

Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most
other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better
generally) anneals it and restores the workability.

You are partly right. Heating a metal above its recrystalization temperature
softens it. For copper, you're talking about at least 480 degrees Celcius.

When copper is heated below this temperature (soldering), the remaining
oygen in the copper can react with hydrogen (possibly released by heating
flux?) causing embittlement of the copper.


That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are
heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in
use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing
qualities can be restored by annealing.

Yes, but with a soldering iron, you'll never reach that temperature,
generally

Meindert

How does this relate to soldering? I'm not sure that removing the soldering
iron
from a freshly soldered joint qualifies as quick cooling.

Doug

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Meindert Sprang wrote:
snip
Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens when
it
is heated.

Meindert

Nope, that's not right. Heating copper (also brass, aluminum, and most
other non-ferrous metals) and cooling it (the quicker the better
generally) anneals it and restores the workability.

That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are
heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in use
and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing qualities
can be restored by annealing.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

I would need to see a reference on that Meindert. There are of course
copper embrittlement mechanisms. But I don't believe any of them work at
soldering temperatures.

The mechanism of which I am aware is simple work hardening when a flexing
section works against one rigidized by solder. Easily handled by support of
the wire. There is a 75 year history of high quality military style
connectors using solder to mate wire to connector pins. This mechanism is
routinely used in high stress situations. I know of no concerns with
embrittlement...just the need to support the wire mechanically.

Hydrogen embrittlement is generally considered to occur at temperatures much
higher than soldering.

I think you need a reference or two...

Jim Donohue

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Meindert Sprang wrote:
snip
Correct. It is a well known physical property of copper. It hardens
when
it
is heated.

Meindert

..

You are partly right. Heating a metal above its recrystalization
temperature
softens it. For copper, you're talking about at least 480 degrees Celcius.

When copper is heated below this temperature (soldering), the remaining
oygen in the copper can react with hydrogen (possibly released by heating
flux?) causing embittlement of the copper.


That is why reusable copper spark plug washers, head gaskets, etc., are
heated to restored their sealing qualities. They get work hardened in
use and might not seal at a specified clamping force. The sealing
qualities can be restored by annealing.

Yes, but with a soldering iron, you'll never reach that temperature,
generally

Meindert

you guys are hurting my head worse then the micro miniture soldering school
I went to when I was in the Nav. I suspect that we all agree that keeping
it clean and sealed is the key and soldering or crimping is probably a
preference much like choosing a Westsail or a J-boat and I wont say what my
preference is.

Scott

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of
the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area.



Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact
with
the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you
put
on the inner conductors.

Just not true.

Soldering makes contact with every strand on all
the surface area that's exposed.

True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will
compromise
it over time.

.....and properly soldered, prevents
exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions.

Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick.
A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long
time.

Off topic but part of the discussion on wires,

Replying to the vibration part of the earlier discussion, we have a 46'
parabolic dish that moves at 15 degrees per second and we continiously have
the crimp connector fail on a bi-yearly basis. We have done engineering
studies with solid wire, braided wire, soldered connectors and crimped
connectors but they all failed. The solid conductor seemed to fail earlier.
We think it is weird and have replaced the entire cable harness twice (cost
was in the hundred of thousands) but the problem continues. Our other 46'
antennas do not have this problem.


"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:Obq2e.895$ZV5.546@fed1read05...

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of
the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area.



Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact
with
the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you
put
on the inner conductors.

Just not true.

Soldering makes contact with every strand on all
the surface area that's exposed.

True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will
compromise
it over time.

.....and properly soldered, prevents
exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions.

Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty
quick.
A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long
time.



Sure it will last...if it is a "properly" crimped joint...but I don't
think
you or Gary know any way to tell if it is "properly" crimped. So you go
on
faith or solder. I'd solder.

When you section a crimp you can still see the individual strands so some
interface still exists. I will agree it is very close to homogeneous.
If
however it is less than perfect there may well be excellent wicking
dimensions present.

Jim Donohue