----- Original Message -----
From: "Me"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.electronics
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: IC-751 for onboard use


"Peeair" has been a Silent Key for over a year, so he won't be trying
much
designing in this world anymore.

73
Doug K7ABX



Oh, Darn, Now who am I going to dump on, when I "Rant" about SGC????
I wonder who their Chief Engineer is now? Maybe Finn Christiansen?


Me

I usually bump into a few of their ham types at the Communications Academy
every year in Shoreline, WA. I will ask around this spring, April 2-3 I
think it is this year. See www.commacademy.org for info. I have gone 2 years
and consider it the best ham radio emergency communications training I have
ever seen put together. Last year the Canadian hams from BC really did a
super job on explaining problems and some solutions for forest fire
communications support involving hams on scene in both countries. It was
serious introspective critiquing, not the hype you see in the ham magazines.
73
Doug K7ABX

My M710 predates the 2002 period. It was "opened" via a software
upload. Is it still Type Accepted? So far Bruce is either unwilling or
ill-equipped to answer this simple question.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"krj" wrote in message
...
All Icom M710 transceivers mfg. since July 2002 are a type accepted marine
transceiver that has the ham bands enabled by Icom. NO software uploads
required. No "opening" of the radio required. It is legal for the Marine
bands if you have a ships radio license and Restricted Radio operators
license, and legal for the ham bands if you have a general or higher ham
license.
krj

Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:


Not all that clear. The ICOM M-710 is "opened" by uploading software
mods. Are you saying that if these mods are uploaded by the factory
or a dealer then it is still Type Accepted, but if I do it myself then it
is not?

BTW, your shift key seems to be malfunctioning. Better have it checked
by a qualified technician :)

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista


Geeez Doug, What does it take for you to understand, here?

The software that is running in the radio, IS part of the Operational
Interface, and if it is different than what was submitted to the FCC
during the Type Acceptance Proceedure, and different than the software
that was in the two submitted Representative Radios, then it is
considered a MODIFICATION by the FCC and would incalidate the
Type Acceptance of that radio when subsequently loaded in the radio
by ANYONE, even the OEM. The Radio isn't the same, when the different
software is loaded, unless that software was included in the Original,
or Subsequent Type Acceptance Proceedure by the OEM.

You can't modify the radio, in ANY substatial way after Type Acceptance
has been granted, and still have that Type Acceptance be Valid.


Bruce in alaska

On 2005-02-10 08:04:11 +1100, "Doug Dotson"
dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom said:

Cut me some slack John. I've been an EE and SE for 30 years specializing
mostly in embedded systems. I know the difference between hardware,
software, formware and underware :)

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005021007410416807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-02-10 05:31:55 +1100, Bruce in Alaska said:

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

Not all that clear. The ICOM M-710 is "opened" by uploading software
mods. Are you saying that if these mods are uploaded by the factory
or a dealer then it is still Type Accepted, but if I do it myself then
it is not?

BTW, your shift key seems to be malfunctioning. Better have it checked
by a qualified technician :)

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

Geeez Doug, What does it take for you to understand, here?

The software that is running in the radio, IS part of the Operational
Interface, and if it is different than what was submitted to the FCC
during the Type Acc

Doug,

Now we can start a ****ing contest. I've been an EE since 1969. Over 25
years in IT and worked in software development, communications as well
as sales and marketing!

You should know that based upon your experience the software that runs
a radio is embedded fiirmware. Very much tied to the radio hardware.
For example memory channels and translating stored frequency
information to the binary code to set frequency is one example where
the firmware and radio hardware are totally dependent upon each other.
Thus type approval must be for hardware and firmware at a specific
revision level. What would happen if the hardware were changed
significantly, you would need to redo certification or convince the
testing organisation that the hardware revision did not change the
radio specifications. The same should be true for the firmware that
controls the radio. That is just plain logical. Oops maybe I just
negated my thinking. After all when was a government agency ever
logical ;-)

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005021020272816807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-02-10 08:04:11 +1100, "Doug Dotson"
dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom said:

Cut me some slack John. I've been an EE and SE for 30 years specializing
mostly in embedded systems. I know the difference between hardware,
software, formware and underware :)

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005021007410416807%lost@nowhereorg...
On 2005-02-10 05:31:55 +1100, Bruce in Alaska said:

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

Not all that clear. The ICOM M-710 is "opened" by uploading software
mods. Are you saying that if these mods are uploaded by the factory
or a dealer then it is still Type Accepted, but if I do it myself then
it is not?

BTW, your shift key seems to be malfunctioning. Better have it checked
by a qualified technician :)

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

Geeez Doug, What does it take for you to understand, here?

The software that is running in the radio, IS part of the Operational
Interface, and if it is different than what was submitted to the FCC
during the Type Acc

Doug,

Now we can start a ****ing contest. I've been an EE since 1969. Over 25
years in IT and worked in software development, communications as well as
sales and marketing!

You should know that based upon your experience the software that runs a
radio is embedded fiirmware. Very much tied to the radio hardware. For
example memory channels and translating stored frequency information to
the binary code to set frequency is one example where the firmware and
radio hardware are totally dependent upon each other. Thus type approval
must be for hardware and firmware at a specific revision level. What would
happen if the hardware were changed significantly, you would need to redo
certification or convince the testing organisation that the hardware
revision did not change the radio specifications. The same should be true
for the firmware that controls the radio. That is just plain logical. Oops
maybe I just negated my thinking. After all when was a government agency
ever logical ;-)

That's my point. You're are preaching to the choir.

Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

In article ,
krj wrote:

All Icom M710 transceivers mfg. since July 2002 are a type accepted
marine transceiver that has the ham bands enabled by Icom. NO software
uploads required. No "opening" of the radio required. It is legal for
the Marine bands if you have a ships radio license and Restricted Radio
operators license, and legal for the ham bands if you have a general or
higher ham license.
krj

Yep, that is EXACTLY right. This is a case where no Modifications are
made or needed, and Type Acceptance would still be VALID for this radio.

Not the case for most other "Opened" radios.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

My M710 predates the 2002 period. It was "opened" via a software
upload. Is it still Type Accepted? So far Bruce is either unwilling or
ill-equipped to answer this simple question.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

No, the M710 was resubmitted for Type Acceptance in 2002 with the new
software. Older M710's that require a modifcation would not be covered
by the newer Type Acceptance Certificate. Just confirmed that with one
of my old buddies in the Engineering Dept. at Icom America.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article 2005021007410416807%lost@nowhereorg,
John Proctor wrote:

And yes, the firmware and hardware
combination is type approved as a whole entity. Theoretically a new
release of the firmware would need to be certified as well but I expect
the FCC as a matter of convenience does not require a retest on each
new release of the firmware.

--
Regards,
John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789
S/V Chagall

If the firmware upgrade, makes any Substantial Change in the Operational
Charactoristics of the Radio then the FCC does require a new
Type Acceptance Proceedure from the OEM. "Opening" a radio may
be considered a Substantial Change, and therefore could trigger
a resubmitted Type Acceptance Filing. This would determined by the
OEM in consultation with the Office of Cheif Engineer at the FCC
Lab.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Hello Bruce,

You must be a lawyer! I suspect that Doug was not
necessarily asking whether his older M710 is covered by the
newer Type Acceptance Certificate. I think he was asking
whether his older, open M710 is Type Accepted under *any*
certificate. This gets all the more interesting since I
believe Icom supplied the open M710s as an option and seemed
to claim they were type-accepted.

It is true that third parties and owners also opened some
M710s and it is an entirely different question whether that
invalidated the type acceptance. Let's stick with the M710s
that Icom sold as open first.

I understand your assertion that IF the early M710s were not
type-accepted in an open version, THEN the type acceptance
could be invalidated even if Icom opened them itself. What
has NOT been established is that there was in fact no type
acceptance of the early open versions. Can any of your
contacts shed any light on that question?


Thanks!

Chuck











Bruce in Alaska wrote:
In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:


My M710 predates the 2002 period. It was "opened" via a software
upload. Is it still Type Accepted? So far Bruce is either unwilling or
ill-equipped to answer this simple question.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista


No, the M710 was resubmitted for Type Acceptance in 2002 with the new
software. Older M710's that require a modifcation would not be covered
by the newer Type Acceptance Certificate. Just confirmed that with one
of my old buddies in the Engineering Dept. at Icom America.

Bruce in alaska

Interesting. So my ICOM radio that was modified via an ICOM upgrade
is no longer Type Accepted and is thus illegal. Must be alot of
illegal radios out there.

Doug

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

My M710 predates the 2002 period. It was "opened" via a software
upload. Is it still Type Accepted? So far Bruce is either unwilling or
ill-equipped to answer this simple question.

Doug, k3qt
s/v Callista

No, the M710 was resubmitted for Type Acceptance in 2002 with the new
software. Older M710's that require a modifcation would not be covered
by the newer Type Acceptance Certificate. Just confirmed that with one
of my old buddies in the Engineering Dept. at Icom America.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @