Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Fiber sounds great until you have to install it. Fiber requires
amazingly expensive equipment to splice and connector to it and
specialized training to do it right, things pleasure boaters will
simply not pay for. It's not an option when a large corporation or
the government bureaucrats aren't paying the bills.

There is also plastic fibre, the stuff that is also used for optical audio
links on high class CD players. This stuff needs no special tools. Just cut
it with a stanley knife, stuff it into the hole and tighten the plastic nut.
Ready.
Installed this way, it is good for 1Mbit/s over several 10's of meters. When
you polish the end with 8000 grit, you can go up to 15MHz over 50 meters or
so. Ideal stuff for some sort of NMEA-183Optical :-)

Meindert

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

In article BFLSb.8210$fD.4843@fed1read02,
"Ed Price" wrote:

"John Proctor" wrote in message
...
At the risk of stirring the pot some more....

In Australia we have C-Tick. Any equipment coming into the country with
active electronics must be C-Tick compliant.

I thought that the C-Tick is just the mark of compliance; the system is
called the Framework, and it is to that which you must be compliant.

This requires at a minimum
compliance with the CE EMC standards. FCC standards are not recognized
as they are too lenient. It is amazing how many manufacturers (US and
Taiwan based) do not have CE approval for their products when to export
them to any decent sized market outside the US this is a firm
requirement.

I also find it amazing that an Australian may export freely into the USA
market by simply technically complying with the FCC regulations, but an
American has to hire an Aussie or Kiwi as a local agent to "handle" his
paperwork. Amazing, isn't it?

BTW, does China recognize the C-Tick?

Ed


Ed,

C-Tick is the mark or copyrighted symbol along with A-Tick (for
telecommunications devices). They are however collectively applied to
the standards required to get approval. Many labratories worldwide are
capable of testing to CE or Australian standards Wiley in Huntsville
Alabama comes to mind ;-) All that is needed by an importer is a copy of
the test result to indicate testing and compliance to the accepted CE
standards. The importer must be a company resident in Australia. After
all who are they going to put in jail for non-compliance ;-) China
certainly produces C-Tick and A-Tick compliant product. Low end Netgear
stuff is made in the PRC. I wouldn't have a clue about their domestic
requirements but whatever they are you can be sure they will be
protecting/promoting their internal electronics industry! Compliance is
a design issue not a manufacturing one.

John VK3JP

--
John VK3JP

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:34:52 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Fiber sounds great until you have to install it. Fiber requires
amazingly expensive equipment to splice and connector to it and
specialized training to do it right, things pleasure boaters will
simply not pay for. It's not an option when a large corporation or
the government bureaucrats aren't paying the bills.

There is also plastic fibre, the stuff that is also used for optical audio
links on high class CD players. This stuff needs no special tools. Just cut
it with a stanley knife, stuff it into the hole and tighten the plastic nut.
Ready.
Installed this way, it is good for 1Mbit/s over several 10's of meters. When
you polish the end with 8000 grit, you can go up to 15MHz over 50 meters or
so. Ideal stuff for some sort of NMEA-183Optical :-)

Meindert


Again, we are talking about ONE talker connected to ONE listener, the
same old NMEA crap problem that's making Meindert rich, now. Will we
make each unit an optical repeater to daisy-chain them together,
replacing the cabling monsters with fiber monsters?



Larry W4CSC

No, no, Scotty! I said, "Beam me a wrench.", not a WENCH!
Kirk Out.....

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:27:07 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Ethernet requires a router and ethernet hubs to
connect devices.

No it does not. Ethernet over 10base-T (cat5 cable) requires a hub and a
cable to every device. The now almost obsolete thin ether net (10base-2, or
coax) would allow you to run a cable from device to device, using BNC T's at
every device.

The keyword is "obsolete". SOMEONE in an ethernet system has to be in
CONTROL, assigning IPs and controlling the movement of packets. It's
not just a broadcast medium. Again, we have the old problem of ONE
talker and a bunch of listeners, just like NMEA0183.

Of course, it will keep Meindert in work if we have extra boxes to
buy...(c;

USB, on the other hand, WOULD let the GPS talk directly to the chart
plotter.

No. USB works with one master and many slaves. Generally the computer is the
master an all other devices are slave. To make a GPS master, it would
require different USB hardware inside the GPS and quite some computing power
to behave as a USB master.

Same problem I point out with the router or hub scenario. Tons of
wiring to a central control point. Where will all the wires go in the
overloaded boat wireways? Who will act as the controller? Will I
have to buy a $2000 notebook to act as a "hub" for the USB? Not
practical, either financially or physically.

But, USB wouldn't work well in a broadcast situation because
it only allows two devices to talk to each other.

USB is master-slave. So only the master can initiate communications to a
slave, by asking if the slave has something to say. Slave can NEVER talk to
eachother.

Same as NMEA.....one talker many listeners. Same old problems.

NMEA2000 (CAN based) isn't all that bad, the problem is that it is not an
open protocol and you have to pay heavily to get your first NMEA2000
compliant device on the market. Buying the standard documents, test suite,
manufacturet and product ID for the first product costs about $10,000!

Like I have mentioned before, NMEA-0183 could well be upgraded to higher
speeds and a bidirectional bus (RS-485). Something like combining NMEA
(point to point, but RS-422) and Seatalk (broadcast but single wire) into
high speed RS-485. Still cheap to implement.

Wireless, either 802.11-something ethernet or Bluetooth is the best
answer. Wireless uses no wireway space. Instruments can be placed
anywhere you can get DC to them.

If you can get DC to an instrument, you can also get a twisted wire to that
instrument.

Wireless is too unreliable. When I walk away from my Bluetooth multiplexer
with my Palm in hand, I lose conact after one brick wall and 5 meters
distance. Even my WLAN stops at two concrete floors.

I have no problems with my Bluetooth connections at 20 ft. I don't
have any brick or concrete walls in the boat. They are conductive and
absorptive, unlike fiberglass and plastics used in boats. Maybe we'll
just use 802.11b?

So imagine what happens in a metal hull.....

Meindert


Notice my note that this is for PLEASURE YACHTS made of PLASTIC AND
FIBERGLASS. How many boaters in any marina have a steel hull? Here,
I'd say it's around 1%? less?



Larry W4CSC

No, no, Scotty! I said, "Beam me a wrench.", not a WENCH!
Kirk Out.....

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
The keyword is "obsolete". SOMEONE in an ethernet system has to be in
CONTROL, assigning IPs and controlling the movement of packets. It's
not just a broadcast medium. Again, we have the old problem of ONE
talker and a bunch of listeners, just like NMEA0183.

Again no. If all of the devices on an ethernet would only send out broadcast
packets, every device could have the same IP address. And the collision
mechanism present in every ethernet controller does the rest. So every
device is able to send data in the form of a broadcast (IP adress ends on
x.x.x.255) and every device receives that. All are equal peers. And for
low-bandwidth NMEA data this would be a perfectly feasable solution.

Of course, it will keep Meindert in work if we have extra boxes to
buy...(c;

Well, I could make a multiplexer with an ethernet connection, if you like.

Notice my note that this is for PLEASURE YACHTS made of PLASTIC AND
FIBERGLASS. How many boaters in any marina have a steel hull? Here,
I'd say it's around 1%? less?

Not every pleasure yacht is made from plastic. I have been in places where
95% of the boats were steel.

Meindert

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

Too much silicon required for Bluetooth for cheap overall connections.
Firewire or 1401 is probably better for boats. Is a direct connect, run the
wires, and no problem with the next guy transmitting, and your Bluetooth
getting confused. Want Bluetooth wireless? Get a Firewire to Bluetooth
adapter. And a lot less non-ionizing radiation running around.
Bill

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
...
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
The radiation from the unshielded wires, with many of them sucking
noise from inside the shielded pair because you must hook one side
(NMEA B) to many grounds creating a giant HF antenna out of your
carefully shielded cabling, is the problem on the HF receivers......

Agreed. It is therefore very important to have RF filtering in a device on
the terminals, to prevent any RF from leaking out over wires.

Let's just dump all this NMEA crap from 1970 and build Bluetooth
compatibility into every new marine electronic gadget. No need for
multiplexers for ancient technology mistakes, wires radiating crap to
all the radios, wires picking up the 150 watt SSB transmitter and
trashing all the NMEA crap it's hooked to.

Yes and no. I will have a Bluetooth mulitplexer soon, but the problem with
Bluetooth is that it allows either data over a 'serial profile', which is
a
point to point connection between two devices only (which my BT
multiplexer
will be: mux - PDA or computer) or you can have a piconet, which creates
an RF network with a limit of 8 devices. I wonder though what an average
BT
device does when 150 W of RF is emitted in the near vincinity....
One think is for su BT or any RF datalink is far away from any approval
needed for commercial vessels.

Meindert

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

In article ,
(Larry W4CSC) wrote:

SOMEONE in an ethernet system has to be in
CONTROL, assigning IPs and controlling the movement of packets. It's
not just a broadcast medium. Again, we have the old problem of ONE
talker and a bunch of listeners, just like NMEA0183.

Well not really Larry, someone has to assign IP address's, but if one
does Static IP Assignments then you only have to do it once per device.
Ethernet doesn't have talkers and listners as such. ALL Devices are BOTH
and the protocol and timing decides who's turn it is to talk next, while
everyone else listens.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

How many network engineers are boat owners at your marina? I know of
2, here. The rest of them will be glad to let the DHCP server on the
router take care of their mundane networking details, allowing them to
simply turn on the new device hooked to the LAN and the router
autoconfigures it.

Boaters LOVE Plug 'n Pray.



On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:13:36 GMT, Bruce in Alaska
wrote:

In article ,
(Larry W4CSC) wrote:

SOMEONE in an ethernet system has to be in
CONTROL, assigning IPs and controlling the movement of packets. It's
not just a broadcast medium. Again, we have the old problem of ONE
talker and a bunch of listeners, just like NMEA0183.

Well not really Larry, someone has to assign IP address's, but if one
does Static IP Assignments then you only have to do it once per device.
Ethernet doesn't have talkers and listners as such. ALL Devices are BOTH
and the protocol and timing decides who's turn it is to talk next, while
everyone else listens.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @


Larry W4CSC

No, no, Scotty! I said, "Beam me a wrench.", not a WENCH!
Kirk Out.....

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
How many network engineers are boat owners at your marina? I know of
2, here. The rest of them will be glad to let the DHCP server on the
router take care of their mundane networking details, allowing them to
simply turn on the new device hooked to the LAN and the router
autoconfigures it.

Like mentioned earlier: let all nodes send only broadcasts. That way, no
device on the net needs a unique IP address. Every device could be factory
programmed with the same IP address.

Meindert

Bought cool new digital charger....$89? WalMart?!!
 

"John Proctor" wrote in message
...
In article BFLSb.8210$fD.4843@fed1read02,
"Ed Price" wrote:

"John Proctor" wrote in message
...
At the risk of stirring the pot some more....

In Australia we have C-Tick. Any equipment coming into the country
with
active electronics must be C-Tick compliant.

I thought that the C-Tick is just the mark of compliance; the system is
called the Framework, and it is to that which you must be compliant.

This requires at a minimum
compliance with the CE EMC standards. FCC standards are not recognized
as they are too lenient. It is amazing how many manufacturers (US and
Taiwan based) do not have CE approval for their products when to
export
them to any decent sized market outside the US this is a firm
requirement.

I also find it amazing that an Australian may export freely into the USA
market by simply technically complying with the FCC regulations, but an
American has to hire an Aussie or Kiwi as a local agent to "handle" his
paperwork. Amazing, isn't it?

BTW, does China recognize the C-Tick?

Ed



Ed,

C-Tick is the mark or copyrighted symbol along with A-Tick (for
telecommunications devices). They are however collectively applied to
the standards required to get approval. Many labratories worldwide are
capable of testing to CE or Australian standards Wiley in Huntsville
Alabama comes to mind ;-) All that is needed by an importer is a copy of
the test result to indicate testing and compliance to the accepted CE
standards. The importer must be a company resident in Australia. After
all who are they going to put in jail for non-compliance ;-) China
certainly produces C-Tick and A-Tick compliant product. Low end Netgear
stuff is made in the PRC. I wouldn't have a clue about their domestic
requirements but whatever they are you can be sure they will be
protecting/promoting their internal electronics industry! Compliance is
a design issue not a manufacturing one.

John VK3JP



John:

I was tweaking you for saying that the FCC requirements are "too lenient"
for Australia's needs. Of course, that is an Aussie's right, to define what
is needed by his country. But the other side of that specification is an
admission that Australia must be some especially delicate environment,
needful of greater regulatory protection.

My comment about local agents was that Australia erects a one-sided tariff
barrier by requiring a local agent. The USA should reciprocate for
Australian products. Surely somebody's brother-in-law needs a job.

My comment about China was to remind him that, although the Australian
market is not insignificant, there is a very big and nearby market where
C-Ticks don't get no stinkin' respect.

Actually, my favorite protective market is South Korea. Everything is filed
by the local agent, in Hangul. Perhaps the USA might require Korean products
to be filed in English and Cherokee? g

Compliance is a design, manufacturing, and not the least, political issue.


Ed
wb6wsn