"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!"

Ok Bruce, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The
SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. The SGC tuners
however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. But for the
sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the
coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's position on mounting automatic
antenna tuners on sail and powerboats.
http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf
Have a nice day. Mark

I don't care what books you read or who wrote them and why they decide
that the rules of physics changed because he is now being paid by what
company.

The Antenna begins at the tuner
The ground (system) begins at the antenna

Do you want the antenna radiating or the ground radiating?

Do you want the antenna as long as possible? (Look at an
antenna-engineering book to get the formula for antennas, hint: one of
the many factors that are DIRECTLY proportional is the length of
antenna (bet not very many of the non-engineer type antenna experts in
here knew that )) LOL just opened up a can of worms.

You want the ground of a vertical type antenna, sloper counts as that
in my book as it is only ¼ wavelength (not really but that's what the
tuner is for, to lie to the transmission line but really it changes
the feed point reactance, anyway I wasn't an English major and anyway
again you want the ground at the tuner to be an effective counterpoise
by coupling into the seawater without radiating any of that rf. Hot
grounds anyone, that's my story and I'm sticking to it



Gordie can write I can't he better stick to writing maybe some
children's books would be better












Bruce in Alaska wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern
Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel.
The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't
change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky
old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that
you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring
a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows
you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with
years of experience made back on their first installation. My first
question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK
GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"?
Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band
is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the
band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all
the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is
noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more
likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something.
See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF
Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial
Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a
day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency
untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was
considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had
marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the
Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen!

Bruce in alaska

"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!"

Ok, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC
radios are known far and wide as being junk. No argument there. The
SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them.
(BTW, Honda didn't do the "original design work" on the automobile
either, yet they make a quality product.) But for the sake of your
argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market.
Here's ICOM's take on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and
power boats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf
Have a nice day. Mark

Sorry guys i forgot 1 thing in my last lunatic rant.
If a perfect ground is exactly 1/4 wavelength away from the tuner
what does it look like ??

Answer infinite resistence






Bruce in Alaska wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern
Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel.
The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't
change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky
old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that
you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring
a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows
you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with
years of experience made back on their first installation. My first
question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK
GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"?
Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band
is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the
band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all
the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is
noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more
likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something.
See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF
Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial
Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a
day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency
untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was
considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had
marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the
Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen!

Bruce in alaska

On 22 Nov 2003 15:35:02 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!"

Ok, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The SGC
radios are known far and wide as being junk. No argument there. The
SGC tuners however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them.
(BTW, Honda didn't do the "original design work" on the automobile
either, yet they make a quality product.) But for the sake of your
argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the coupler/tuner market.
Here's ICOM's take on mounting automatic antenna tuners on sail and
power boats. http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf
Have a nice day. Mark


One reason you may see this kind of thing from manufacturers is that
is what all the rest are professing. There may be a fear that if they
tell you the proper way to do it you may not buy their radio because
it is more complicated than the competition. They really make it sound
simple and uncomplicated don't they.

Don't believe everything you read. Look for some facts to back it up.

Regards
Gary

You bring up a good point. Remember the guys that have a 12 to 15 foot
ground lead from their tuner up on the fly bridge? It just so happens
that around 16 feet is a quarter wave on 20 meters.

Now if you have one end of that 16 foot ground strap connected to the
tuner and the other end connected to a ground below, guess what ?
You have a complete open ground circuit at the tuner! That ground
strap does no good at all. Connected or disconnected at the tuner it
will make no difference.

As a matter of fact if you unhook it at the ground end (opposite the
tuner) it will be much more effective. It will then act as a quarter
wave length radial giving you some counterpoise for the tuner.

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 15:36:41 -0800, (Gw) wrote:

Sorry guys i forgot 1 thing in my last lunatic rant.
If a perfect ground is exactly 1/4 wavelength away from the tuner
what does it look like ??

Answer infinite resistence






Bruce in Alaska wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern
Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel.
The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't
change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky
old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that
you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring
a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows
you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with
years of experience made back on their first installation. My first
question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK
GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"?
Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band
is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the
band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all
the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is
noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more
likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something.
See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF
Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial
Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a
day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency
untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was
considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had
marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the
Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen!

Bruce in alaska

In article ,
(BOEING377) wrote:

Didn't Gordon West recently publish the results of an informal experiment
where
his only ground was simply a short wire hung off the boat touching salt
water,
(not a long length dragged behind the boat)? As I recall, against all common
wisdom, it worked great. The article called into question the need for big
surface areas of grounding material if in salt water. It implied that simply
grounding to a metallic through hull might do the job. I know we still have
the
issues of coupler and antenna location, feedline, etc.

The above Idea of trailing a wire or a direct metalic connection
to the water, has been around since the original radios went on
floating objects. Mostly they aren't used for two reasons. One,
trailing anything behind a powerboat, will in all liklyhood enup in the
wheel and cause BAD THINGS to happen. Oh, you say, "We ALWAYS reel
it in before we, turn, stop, manuver, ect". Yeah Right, and how many
pilots need to replace the trailing wire antenna because they forgot to
reel it in before landing??? Second, any electrical connections to
Sal****er will in all likelyhood cause ELECTROSIS and can serverly damage
expensive equipment on your vessel. Most vessel owners and operators
like to keep ALL their electrical connection DC Isolated from the water
for this reason and building a good RF Ground System that is DC Isolated
isn't all that hard, If you do it when the hull is being built in the
first place.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
(Gw) wrote:

Sorry guys i forgot 1 thing in my last lunatic rant.
If a perfect ground is exactly 1/4 wavelength away from the tuner
what does it look like ??

Answer infinite resistence




At one and only one frequency!!! What is the point of having an
Autotuner, or for that matter having any tuner if you only need
and use one Frequency? Your 1/4 wavelength Rant is BOGAS in
the Maritime Mobile Radio context...... Daaaaa

Bruce in alaska

--
Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska)
add a 2 before @
Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post
P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South
Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850
www.btpost.net www.99850.net

In article ,
(Gw) wrote:

I don't care what books you read or who wrote them and why they decide
that the rules of physics changed because he is now being paid by what
company.

The Antenna begins at the tuner
The ground (system) begins at the antenna

Do you want the antenna radiating or the ground radiating?

Do you want the antenna as long as possible? (Look at an
antenna-engineering book to get the formula for antennas, hint: one of
the many factors that are DIRECTLY proportional is the length of
antenna (bet not very many of the non-engineer type antenna experts in
here knew that )) LOL just opened up a can of worms.

You want the ground of a vertical type antenna, sloper counts as that
in my book as it is only ¼ wavelength (not really but that's what the
tuner is for, to lie to the transmission line but really it changes
the feed point reactance, anyway I wasn't an English major and anyway
again you want the ground at the tuner to be an effective counterpoise
by coupling into the seawater without radiating any of that rf. Hot
grounds anyone, that's my story and I'm sticking to it



Gordie can write I can't he better stick to writing maybe some
children's books would be better

Yep, I agree with you and Gary on these points.......


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

"SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT!"

Ok Bruce, I get it. No need to bust a blood vessel over this. The
SGC radios are known far and wide as being junk. The SGC tuners
however, DO have a good rep, no matter who designed them. But for the
sake of your argument, we'll dismiss SGC as a player in the
coupler/tuner market. Here's ICOM's position on mounting automatic
antenna tuners on sail and powerboats.
http://www.icomamerica.com/downloads...ook/chptr7.pdf
Have a nice day. Mark

Just beacuse you read it in print from an OEM still doesn't
make it TRUTH. The guy who wrote that stuff, obviously never
had to install a system and do Proof of Performance Tests.
It's the RF Ground that is the MOST important part of any
Marine Radio Installation! Anything conductive will radiate
RF into the ether. The Best Antenna in the world will not
compensate for a POOR Rf Ground. The WORST Antenna in the world
will communicate, if it is working against a GREAT Rf Ground.

I have always believed that an Engineer should be allowed to
design anything, untill he/she has had five years experience as a
Field Service Tech in the same in Industry. This why we get
cars that you have to pull the engine to change sparkplugs,
and just plain Dumb Designs. I guess it also should be true
in the Documentation Writing Business as well.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @