The antenna base is about 3' away from the tuner at it's present location,
on the flying bridge. They are basically at the same level. The antenna lead
exits the locker, then runs perpendicular about 2' to the antenna hookup.

Going to tackle the problems one at a time. Turns out that the early 802's
had manufacturing problems, and won't transmit at a strong power level. I
have one of these, and am sending it back to the factory for warranty
repair. That's what I get for being an early adopter! Next, I really suspect
the control cable, so will double check and verify that.

The tuner placement seems to be anything but a concensus. I hate to move the
thing, but if all else fails, that will be the final change. I can place it
in a locker about halfway between the antenna and ground plate. In that
position, the ground foil would have to go about 5' to the ground plate. The
other place would be right in the engine room on the bulkhead, about 2' to
the ground plate, but I worry more about heat, etc. in there. Will keep
everyone posted, and thanks for the help!

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
Keith,

I'm trying to visualize where the base of your antenna is. Ideally
the tuner should be mounted at or below the base. If the tuner is on
the flybridge and the base is down near deck level, then your antenna
feed is running down, and more or less parallel to the antenna itself.
If so, this may be the source of your problem.

On the other hand, if the antenna base is on the fly bridge near the
antenna tuner, it should be OK assuming a good ground and proper hook
up with the tuner control cable.

=============================================

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:37:04 -0600, "Keith"
wrote:

OK, let's see if I can give feedback to all of your notes.

Yes, the radio is set to "tune", and on full power. I will double check
to
make sure the tech didn't change either of the settings. I do not know
what
the SWR's were. The bad part was that I had been trying to hook up with
this
guy for awhile... and I wasn't here when he did the checks.

When I hit "tune", I sure don't hear any clicks or any other evidence
that
it's doing anything. The control cable was the one thing I DIDN'T do
myself,
so I'm beginning to suspect that as Larry pointed out. I remember that
topic
on here before. The little pins were so tiny I couldn't hardly see them
much
less solder them! I think I'll work on this as Larry suggests.

The Antenna is a Digital fiberglass... don't remember the exact length,
but
what the folks around here recommended... The boat is fiberglass, a
Krogen
42. The 2" copper foil runs about 12-15' from the tuner on the flying
bridge
down to a big Wunderbar (sp?). The bar is a scintered bronze plate, about
24" x 6" or so. Nothing else is connected or grounded to this, except
that I
also have a 2" foil strip that runs to the radio and connects to the
ground
on the back, as shown in in ICOM installation manual.

I think I'm going to redo the control cable as Larry suggests, and go
from
there.

"Bruce in Alaska" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Keith" wrote:

Well, I had a tech come out and check out my system. M-802 with the
automatic antenna tuner. He said that the radio is only putting out
about 50
watts, and should be putting out 100-150 watts, so he thinks
something
is
wrong with the radio (new, right outta the box...)

He also mentioned that the automatic antenna tuner should be closer
to
the
ground plate. In the Icom manuals, they said to mount it as close to
the
antenna as possible, so it's on the flying bridge, and the conductor
from
the tuner to the antenna is about 3'. I can move it about halfway
between
the antenna and the ground plate in the engine room. Who's right?

The final thing is that I ran a 2" ground foil strip from the radio
to
the
ground plate as well, as required by the ICOM manual... he said this
isn't
necessary and should be disconnected. I'm really confused now.

Help!

At this point, I'm going to take the radio in to the dealer and have
it
checked out and anything corrected as needed, then see how things
work
before I start moving the tuner around.



Hello Keith,


I don't know the guy you hired to do your HF Radio work, but from the
sounds of things, he isn't one of the greatest Tech's to walk down the
dock. First thing, is to transmit into a Dummy Load, and see if the
radio is capable of putting out it's rated power, into a perfect
antenna.
If yes, the problem isn't in the radio. If no, then the radio needs to
be realigned. (tuned) Second, understand that any SSB Radio maybe
transmitting rated power, and it doesn't nessesarily show up on a
non-peak reading Wattmeter. There are many reasons to have the
autotuner mounted at this polace or that place. Most are related to
what type of RF Ground System your vessel has. From a strictly RF
standopoint, closer to the Ground Plate is better, and 2" copper foil
is minimal for any connection to a RF Ground System. what is the
length
of the copper foil in feet? The longer the foil, the worse the ground
impedance will be, and the harder the tuner will have to work to tune
the antenna. You don't tell us anything about the vessel construction,
RF Ground System, or antenna system. Knoing these would be critical
in advising you on your installation.
Points of interest.
1. If your foil is longer than 3 or 4 Feet, then what you are asking
that autotuner to do the almost impossible. Think it as if the tuner
wan't sitting at ground but at some point above ground and that point
is
the length of the copper foil. Lets say 15 Ft, as you say it is on the
Flying Bridge, and that is say 15 Ft above Waterline. Now you
effectivly have the tuner in the middle of a diopole antenna and trying
to reconcile impedances on both antenna and ground at the same time.
BAD IDEA. The firmware in the tuner only looks at the antenna
impedance, with refernce to the Ground lug on the tuner. If the ground
lug isn't at RF Ground, then the tuner firmware gets REALLY FUNNY DATA
from it's internal sensers and it doesn't deal with funny data well.
2. If the tuner is moved to a place, say 3 ft from the RF Ground, then
you must add wire to the antenna, and that wire becomes part of the
antenna, and therefore gets tuned by the tuner. This is a GOOD THING,
if people, or Ground don't come to close to it while you are
transmitting. By adding wire (length) to the antenna you are effectivly
lowering the frequency that the tuner will tune. This again is a GOOD
THING, on a plastic or wood vessel.
3. As Larry and Jim have stated, check and BE SURE, that the radio is
in TUNER MODE, and not THRU MODE. If your in THRU MODE, the tuner
isn't
even going look at your antenna, let alone try and tune it.


More information!


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

SGC has always maintained that the coupler/tuner should be mounted as
close to the base of the antenna as possible. Links:

http://www.sgcworld.com/support/golden_rules.htm
http://www.sgcworld.com/ftp/Books/SG230Man.pdf (pages 10, 41)

You are right in that the antenna starts at the tuner. With the all
RF generated every time you key the mic, that is precisely WHY you
want the lead from the tuner to the antenna as short as possible. The
idea is to have as little of the antenna radiating inside the boat as
possible.


Gary Schafer wrote in message . ..
Why do you say that?
The lead that goes from the antenna tuner to the antenna becomes just
as much a part of the antenna as the rest of the antenna wire.

It is much more important to have a low inductance (short) ground
lead.

Regards
Gary



On 15 Nov 2003 12:10:55 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much
more important than the distance to the ground plate.

Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit,
which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say
something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out
that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of
power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats.

You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :)

Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :)

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit,
which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say
something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out
that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of
power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats.

What about that long ground lead. It acts as an antenna too. If the
ground lead is long so does the coax and control cable going to the
tuner act as part of the antenna. That will surly couple RF into
unwanted places. Besides making the whole system inefficient.

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 04:02:00 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

SGC has always maintained that the coupler/tuner should be mounted as
close to the base of the antenna as possible. Links:

http://www.sgcworld.com/support/golden_rules.htm
http://www.sgcworld.com/ftp/Books/SG230Man.pdf (pages 10, 41)

You are right in that the antenna starts at the tuner. With the all
RF generated every time you key the mic, that is precisely WHY you
want the lead from the tuner to the antenna as short as possible. The
idea is to have as little of the antenna radiating inside the boat as
possible.


Gary Schafer wrote in message . ..
Why do you say that?
The lead that goes from the antenna tuner to the antenna becomes just
as much a part of the antenna as the rest of the antenna wire.

It is much more important to have a low inductance (short) ground
lead.

Regards
Gary



On 15 Nov 2003 12:10:55 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

Leave the tuner as close to the antenna as practical. That's much
more important than the distance to the ground plate.

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Gary Schafer wrote in message . ..
You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :)

Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :)

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit,
which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say
something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out
that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of
power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats.

Didn't Gordon West recently publish the results of an informal experiment where
his only ground was simply a short wire hung off the boat touching salt water,
(not a long length dragged behind the boat)? As I recall, against all common
wisdom, it worked great. The article called into question the need for big
surface areas of grounding material if in salt water. It implied that simply
grounding to a metallic through hull might do the job. I know we still have the
issues of coupler and antenna location, feedline, etc.

In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit,
which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say
something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out
that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of
power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats.

If only "Old Gordie" would go out and do some realtime RF Radiation
Studies on what he espouses in his writings. The antenna needs to be
as close to the RF Ground as practicable. The closer the better.
Also remember "Old Gordie" SELLS that Copper Strap to you along with his
book.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

I haven't read everything that Gordon West has written. But some of
the stuff, especially the comparisons he makes between systems, leaves
a little to be desired.

If he says "we no longer need huge amounts of ground foil etc. because
of modern tuners", what does that tell you? That is like saying "my
radio puts out a good signal". Compared to what?

Modern tuners don't help the ground situation one bit. They haven't
changed the laws of physics. The only thing a modern tuner does is let
you get away with a poor ground system easier than the old manual
tuners. Much less work involved to get the radio to operate. Not that
it operates any better though.

Just look at the quality of some of the SGC radios. Is it any wonder
their manuals are a little off.

I have seen countless manufacturers with very poor antenna system
installation advice.

Some people have finally realized that a good connection to the sea
water is an excellent ground. Gordon West Being among them.

Now if only people would come to realize the importance of SHORT
ground leads.

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 10:15:46 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Gary Schafer wrote in message . ..
You don't suppose they are trying to sell ground foil do you? :)

Ask Bruce about ground planes on fly bridges. :)

Regards
Gary


On 22 Nov 2003 04:18:15 -0800, (Mark Reichow)
wrote:

Also read Gordon West's excellent primer on radio gound planes for
boats. It comes packed with the West Marine 2" copper foil gound kit,
which by the way comes in 25' AND 50' lengths. (That may say
something about the length of gound leads right there.) He points out
that the tuner is mounted next to the antenna on the flybridge of
power boats, and at the base of the antenna (backstay) of sailboats.

In article ,
(Mark Reichow) wrote:

A valid point but Gordon West also states that with the modern
couplers/tuners, we no longer need to run huge amounts of ground foil
and to link EVERY thru-hull to have a good ground plane. It used to
be that a MINIMUM of 100 sq. ft. of counterpoise was recommended.
He's a ham who writes books and magazine articles offering advice on
the best way to install your HF radio system. I don't think he'd risk
his rep telling you to install an inferior ground plane just to sell
some foil. And I don't think SGC has a monetary interest in telling
us to mount the coupler as close to the base of the antenna as
practical. In any case, I've istalled my system and others this way,
all with great success. Regards, Mark


Old Gordie, doesn't have a clue about how the firmware in "Modern
Autotuners", works, and shows his ingnorence in his writing such drivel.
The requirement for a "Solid Low Impeadance RF Ground System" doesn't
change just because you have a fancy Autotuner, instead of a clunky
old Fixed Channel Tuner, of years gone by. The only change is that
you, as a Vessel Owner, can do your own installations instead of hiring
a "Competant Marine Radioman" to do a quality job for you. This allows
you to make all the "Stupid and unintellegent" mistakes that folks with
years of experience made back on their first installation. My first
question was ALWAYS, "Do you want it to WORK, or do you want it to LOOK
GOOD?" SGC couldn't design their way out of a "Wet Paper Bag" and they
didn't do any of the "Original Design Work" on any of the Autotuner
Products. ANY THAT IS A FACT! How do you determine "great suscess"?
Like I have posted before, just making a "Radio Contact" when the band
is wide open doesn't prove anything. A "Wet Noodle" will work when the
band is open. We used to do that by calling KMI from Puget Sound all
the time, and "It don't mean Squat" Make a contact when the band is
noisy and marginal, or in the middle of a Big Storm, when your more
likly to really need to communicate, then maybe you got something.
See in the Non-commecial Maritime Radio World, you actually use the HF
Radio very little and actually make contact even less. In the Commercial
Maritime Radio World, these guys are using that radio 4 or more times a
day, every day, and if they don't get a contact, they move frequency
untill they do make contact. When they had Radio Operators, it was
considerable more contact per ship per day than that. If they had
marginal Antenna Systems and RF Grounds, they are back "Bitching" to the
Istalling Radioman, after the first voyage. Been there, had that happen!

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @