Bruce in alaska wrote in
:

Followup.... well the guy called "Me" back, Twice now, but I was out
of the cabin both times, so we are exchanging Phone Messages.... I did
learn that "AIS is licensed to the vessel, on it's "Radio License", as
"Transponder", and therefor can NOT be fitted on a vessel that does
NOT have a valid Ship Station License". So if you want to have AIS,
you MUST license your vessel, and receive a Ship Station License....
No Blanket Licensing allowed... I suspect, but have yet to get a firm
conformation, that AIS, as a Transponder, doesn't REQUIRE an Operators
Permit or License, as once it is programmed with the vessels IDent,
Callsign, Etc, it then just repeats that information, in a FIXED and
Defined format, therefore wouldn't need Operator Intervention, and
therefor doesn't require a Licensed Operator, like an MF/HF Radio
would.

But, each time you sail, the operator must program into AIS the
destination, ETA, current draft, etc, that does change on each leg of a
voyage. That would, I'm guessing, require a GMDSS Operator's License to
program, which is about half the AIS message format.

Well, we DID answer the pressing question that NO, casual sailboaters
will NOT just plug in an AIS to their GPS and antenna and go blindly
around transmitting on AIS to anyone who listens with no license or
training like they do VHF FM voice. It's not a plug n play device.


Another note, Here, it is NOT DSC, that REQUIRES a GMDSS Operators
License, It is the operation of an MF/HF Transmitter, that Requires an
Operators permit of some kind. The Class of that License or Permit
will be different for each type of vessel. Where Passenger Ships in
the telegraph days REQUIRED a 1st Class Radiotelegraph License to be
Chief Radio Operator, but a Cargo Vessel of the same size only
REQUIRED a 2nd Class Radiotelegraph License, and a smaller (300 - 1600
Ton) vessel only REQUIRED a Marine RadioTelephone License, as they had
NO Telegraph Radio's fitted, and smaller than that (under 300 Tons)
you just needed your Lifetime Restricted RadioTelephone Permit.... I
believe that the Commission is still of the same opinion, that
VHF/Radar use on vessels that NEVER leave US Waters, can be exempted
from Licensing, but if a vessel leaves US Waters, it MUST comply with
International Conventions that REQUIRE a Ship Station License issued
by the Country of FLAG. If the Radio Station is likely to have
transmitters that can effect, and communicate with International
Communications, it is REQUIRED by those same Conventions, to be
operated by a Licensed Operator who has the appropriate Class of
License, for that vessel, as determined by the Country of Flag.

In the question of AIS, unlicensed operators and boats won't be
transmitting on AIS unless they get licensed. I can see a LOT of NALs
going out to unlicensed stations over this from this information. It is
illegal to transmit on AIS without a "transponder-endorsed" ship
license. That makes sense, really, as the ship's FCC callsign is one of
the message's variables. It'll be easy to police. FCC monitors simply
look for valid callsigns on AIS and bust anyone without them. "Her
Orgasm" is not a valid callsign...(c;]


It is more about distance of communications, and effectiveness of any
unintentional interference that a Station operated by a non-Licensed
Operator could cause, and less about the information being conveyed.

Bruce in alaska


It'll be interesting to see what they say about the OPERATOR's license
required to operate both A and B AIS on there properly-licensed and
installed boats. Boaters are in for a shock.

If you do get to talk to him, please ask my age-old question, which
license is required to transmit NON EMERGENCY DSC calls on VHF? Is it
legal for a NON-licensed boat with unlicensed operators to operate non-
emergency DSC on VHF, which is DATA or TRANSPONDER...not voice? Reading
Part 80:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr80_00.html
80.151 is WAY behind in begin upgraded. It only has GROL other than the
old telegraph licenses on it. GMDSS operator licenses aren't even
mentioned! It's crazy the way they've left it. It makes no sense at
all.

Now, Let's discuss GMDSS Restricted Operator (RG class), less than 20
miles offsho
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=rg
"The exam consists of questions from the following categories: general
information, VHF digital selective calling, and carriage requirement. To
pass, an examinee must correctly answer at least 38 out of 50
questions."
This is the GMDSS VHF OPERATOR's license....VHF DSC! That's what it's
for! No boaters I know have one....

Going further than 20 miles offshore with DSC?
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=do
Then you need a GMDSS Operator's License (DO class), which is all DSC,
HF and VHF. This is the operator's license for DSC equipped Ship
Stations going offshore to foreign ports....like the Bahamas.

Now, let's look what it says about Restricted RADIOTELEPHONE Operator's
Permit, the one all the boaters just write off for and get to operate
Ship RADIOTELEPHONE stations:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=rr
If you read the now-long list of things you can operate WITHOUT the RR-
class Restricted license, most boaters who don't go overseas or have HF
aboard don't need them. If they operate HF RADIOTELEPHONES, or go
offshore, of course, they do.

Find ANY reference to operating DSC, whatsoever, under this license.
There is none because this is a RADIOTELEPHONE license....VOICE and
plug-n-play radars that have no tuning ONLY.....No AIS, No GMDSS, NO DSC
on any band either!

Pressing the DSC button when the boat is sinking, of course, in a
distress, is legal without any license at all....just a Boat/US MMSI and
a GPS input that works is fine. CALLING "HER ORGASM" ON DSC WITHOUT A
PROPER GMDSS RESTRICTED OPERATOR LICENSE IS NOT! That's what it
says....

Please ask the FCC guys for clarification on this matter. Part 80
doesn't even discuss this, it's still written for 1969 boats with
Raytheon tube radios on them.....or RCA CW transmitters using 813s.



--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

Thanks Larry, good research, but this now opens another pandora's box. If
you have a Ships Station license and your equipment is all IMO approved
equipment, even though your vessel size does not require IMO/SOLAS
compliance, will I now be subject to the periodic inspection and
recertification rules these compliances demand? My gut feeling is yes.
Steve

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Bruce in alaska wrote in
:

Followup.... well the guy called "Me" back, Twice now, but I was out
of the cabin both times, so we are exchanging Phone Messages.... I did
learn that "AIS is licensed to the vessel, on it's "Radio License", as
"Transponder", and therefor can NOT be fitted on a vessel that does
NOT have a valid Ship Station License". So if you want to have AIS,
you MUST license your vessel, and receive a Ship Station License....
No Blanket Licensing allowed... I suspect, but have yet to get a firm
conformation, that AIS, as a Transponder, doesn't REQUIRE an Operators
Permit or License, as once it is programmed with the vessels IDent,
Callsign, Etc, it then just repeats that information, in a FIXED and
Defined format, therefore wouldn't need Operator Intervention, and
therefor doesn't require a Licensed Operator, like an MF/HF Radio
would.

But, each time you sail, the operator must program into AIS the
destination, ETA, current draft, etc, that does change on each leg of a
voyage. That would, I'm guessing, require a GMDSS Operator's License to
program, which is about half the AIS message format.

Well, we DID answer the pressing question that NO, casual sailboaters
will NOT just plug in an AIS to their GPS and antenna and go blindly
around transmitting on AIS to anyone who listens with no license or
training like they do VHF FM voice. It's not a plug n play device.


Another note, Here, it is NOT DSC, that REQUIRES a GMDSS Operators
License, It is the operation of an MF/HF Transmitter, that Requires an
Operators permit of some kind. The Class of that License or Permit
will be different for each type of vessel. Where Passenger Ships in
the telegraph days REQUIRED a 1st Class Radiotelegraph License to be
Chief Radio Operator, but a Cargo Vessel of the same size only
REQUIRED a 2nd Class Radiotelegraph License, and a smaller (300 - 1600
Ton) vessel only REQUIRED a Marine RadioTelephone License, as they had
NO Telegraph Radio's fitted, and smaller than that (under 300 Tons)
you just needed your Lifetime Restricted RadioTelephone Permit.... I
believe that the Commission is still of the same opinion, that
VHF/Radar use on vessels that NEVER leave US Waters, can be exempted
from Licensing, but if a vessel leaves US Waters, it MUST comply with
International Conventions that REQUIRE a Ship Station License issued
by the Country of FLAG. If the Radio Station is likely to have
transmitters that can effect, and communicate with International
Communications, it is REQUIRED by those same Conventions, to be
operated by a Licensed Operator who has the appropriate Class of
License, for that vessel, as determined by the Country of Flag.

In the question of AIS, unlicensed operators and boats won't be
transmitting on AIS unless they get licensed. I can see a LOT of NALs
going out to unlicensed stations over this from this information. It is
illegal to transmit on AIS without a "transponder-endorsed" ship
license. That makes sense, really, as the ship's FCC callsign is one of
the message's variables. It'll be easy to police. FCC monitors simply
look for valid callsigns on AIS and bust anyone without them. "Her
Orgasm" is not a valid callsign...(c;]


It is more about distance of communications, and effectiveness of any
unintentional interference that a Station operated by a non-Licensed
Operator could cause, and less about the information being conveyed.

Bruce in alaska


It'll be interesting to see what they say about the OPERATOR's license
required to operate both A and B AIS on there properly-licensed and
installed boats. Boaters are in for a shock.

If you do get to talk to him, please ask my age-old question, which
license is required to transmit NON EMERGENCY DSC calls on VHF? Is it
legal for a NON-licensed boat with unlicensed operators to operate non-
emergency DSC on VHF, which is DATA or TRANSPONDER...not voice? Reading
Part 80:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...7cfr80_00.html
80.151 is WAY behind in begin upgraded. It only has GROL other than the
old telegraph licenses on it. GMDSS operator licenses aren't even
mentioned! It's crazy the way they've left it. It makes no sense at
all.

Now, Let's discuss GMDSS Restricted Operator (RG class), less than 20
miles offsho
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=rg
"The exam consists of questions from the following categories: general
information, VHF digital selective calling, and carriage requirement. To
pass, an examinee must correctly answer at least 38 out of 50
questions."
This is the GMDSS VHF OPERATOR's license....VHF DSC! That's what it's
for! No boaters I know have one....

Going further than 20 miles offshore with DSC?
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=do
Then you need a GMDSS Operator's License (DO class), which is all DSC,
HF and VHF. This is the operator's license for DSC equipped Ship
Stations going offshore to foreign ports....like the Bahamas.

Now, let's look what it says about Restricted RADIOTELEPHONE Operator's
Permit, the one all the boaters just write off for and get to operate
Ship RADIOTELEPHONE stations:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=rr
If you read the now-long list of things you can operate WITHOUT the RR-
class Restricted license, most boaters who don't go overseas or have HF
aboard don't need them. If they operate HF RADIOTELEPHONES, or go
offshore, of course, they do.

Find ANY reference to operating DSC, whatsoever, under this license.
There is none because this is a RADIOTELEPHONE license....VOICE and
plug-n-play radars that have no tuning ONLY.....No AIS, No GMDSS, NO DSC
on any band either!

Pressing the DSC button when the boat is sinking, of course, in a
distress, is legal without any license at all....just a Boat/US MMSI and
a GPS input that works is fine. CALLING "HER ORGASM" ON DSC WITHOUT A
PROPER GMDSS RESTRICTED OPERATOR LICENSE IS NOT! That's what it
says....

Please ask the FCC guys for clarification on this matter. Part 80
doesn't even discuss this, it's still written for 1969 boats with
Raytheon tube radios on them.....or RCA CW transmitters using 813s.



--
-----
Larry

If a man goes way out into the woods all alone and says something,
is it still wrong, even though no woman hears him?

In article ,
"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

Thanks Larry, good research, but this now opens another pandora's box. If
you have a Ships Station license and your equipment is all IMO approved
equipment, even though your vessel size does not require IMO/SOLAS
compliance, will I now be subject to the periodic inspection and
recertification rules these compliances demand? My gut feeling is yes.
Steve

Ok, Here is the "Straight from the HORSE's Mouth, No ****, Poop" on
licensing AIS in the USA. I talked to the Wireless Rules Guy, himself...
AND.... Wait for it..... to be very frank, the term "Dufus" comes to
mind.

Larry is certainly CORRECT... someone back in FCC DC HQ is thinking like
a Bureaucrat, and not an Engineer, or Regulator....

1. AIS "IS" Covered by the Blanket US Waters Only VHF Marine License....
so it MAY be fitted to any US Vessel, with or WITHOUT a Ship Station
License.
a. MMSI would be issued by Boats USA or one of the civilian MMSI
Registrars.

b. Callsign can be either, some Old Callsign that the vessel had
previously, OR, something you MAKE UP, yourself.... No ****... that is
what Mr. FCC said....

2. As a Transponder, it requires NO Operators License, the same as a
Marine SART. for Radar.

3. This is for ALL AIS Transponders, of Either Class, fitted aboard a US
Flagged, Documented, non-Documented, or State Registered or unregistered
Vessel.

I really can't believe, that this, is how it it is, BUT THAT IS, "WHAT
the Guy SAID".....

SO, untill things change, That is the State of AIS, in the USofA....

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

Bruce in alaska wrote in
:

In article ,
"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

Thanks Larry, good research, but this now opens another pandora's
box. If you have a Ships Station license and your equipment is all
IMO approved equipment, even though your vessel size does not require
IMO/SOLAS compliance, will I now be subject to the periodic
inspection and recertification rules these compliances demand? My gut
feeling is yes. Steve

Ok, Here is the "Straight from the HORSE's Mouth, No ****, Poop" on
licensing AIS in the USA. I talked to the Wireless Rules Guy,
himself... AND.... Wait for it..... to be very frank, the term "Dufus"
comes to mind.

Larry is certainly CORRECT... someone back in FCC DC HQ is thinking
like a Bureaucrat, and not an Engineer, or Regulator....

1. AIS "IS" Covered by the Blanket US Waters Only VHF Marine
License.... so it MAY be fitted to any US Vessel, with or WITHOUT a
Ship Station License.
a. MMSI would be issued by Boats USA or one of the civilian MMSI
Registrars.

b. Callsign can be either, some Old Callsign that the vessel had
previously, OR, something you MAKE UP, yourself.... No ****... that is
what Mr. FCC said....

2. As a Transponder, it requires NO Operators License, the same as a
Marine SART. for Radar.

3. This is for ALL AIS Transponders, of Either Class, fitted aboard a
US Flagged, Documented, non-Documented, or State Registered or
unregistered Vessel.

I really can't believe, that this, is how it it is, BUT THAT IS, "WHAT
the Guy SAID".....

SO, untill things change, That is the State of AIS, in the USofA....


Good grief. Things at FCC have rotted much further away than I thought.

Ok, I'll just stand back and let them all have at it. Has this guy got
a name and number we can reference when the NALs are delivered to the PO
Boxes? "Yes, but Mr Rogers said.............and that's what we've been
operating under, his official statements, seeing as how the rules and
websites are so screwed up and unreadable." That might be helpful to
someone who's staring that NAL in the face requiring a reply "or else".

--
-----
Larry

Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the
entrails of the last cleric.

In article ,
Larry wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote in
:

In article ,
"Steve Lusardi" wrote:

Thanks Larry, good research, but this now opens another pandora's
box. If you have a Ships Station license and your equipment is all
IMO approved equipment, even though your vessel size does not require
IMO/SOLAS compliance, will I now be subject to the periodic
inspection and recertification rules these compliances demand? My gut
feeling is yes. Steve

Ok, Here is the "Straight from the HORSE's Mouth, No ****, Poop" on
licensing AIS in the USA. I talked to the Wireless Rules Guy,
himself... AND.... Wait for it..... to be very frank, the term "Dufus"
comes to mind.

Larry is certainly CORRECT... someone back in FCC DC HQ is thinking
like a Bureaucrat, and not an Engineer, or Regulator....

1. AIS "IS" Covered by the Blanket US Waters Only VHF Marine
License.... so it MAY be fitted to any US Vessel, with or WITHOUT a
Ship Station License.
a. MMSI would be issued by Boats USA or one of the civilian MMSI
Registrars.

b. Callsign can be either, some Old Callsign that the vessel had
previously, OR, something you MAKE UP, yourself.... No ****... that is
what Mr. FCC said....

2. As a Transponder, it requires NO Operators License, the same as a
Marine SART. for Radar.

3. This is for ALL AIS Transponders, of Either Class, fitted aboard a
US Flagged, Documented, non-Documented, or State Registered or
unregistered Vessel.

I really can't believe, that this, is how it it is, BUT THAT IS, "WHAT
the Guy SAID".....

SO, untill things change, That is the State of AIS, in the USofA....


Good grief. Things at FCC have rotted much further away than I thought.

Ok, I'll just stand back and let them all have at it. Has this guy got
a name and number we can reference when the NALs are delivered to the PO
Boxes? "Yes, but Mr Rogers said.............and that's what we've been
operating under, his official statements, seeing as how the rules and
websites are so screwed up and unreadable." That might be helpful to
someone who's staring that NAL in the face requiring a reply "or else".

Well, it seems like there is a "SMALL" change in the FCC's Statement
about the Current Regulations for AIS fitted aboard "a US Flagged,
Documented, non-Documented, State Registered or unregistered Vessel"....

Mr FCC called "ME" back this morning, and on reflection, and
consultation, with others at HQ, his position "Now" is.....

1. b. Callsigns FOR non-Licensed Voluntary Equipped US Flagged Vessels.
The Callsign programed into the AIS, should be the Vessels NAME, the
same name that is in the NAME Frame on the AIS. MMSI would be issued to
that Vessel Name, by one of the civilian Registrars, and logged into
that Database.

So, at least they got that "Small" Ident Problem solved.... BUT the rest
is still.... well what it is.....

Bruce in alaska

--
Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska)

Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post
P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South
Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850
AL7AQ * KL7WJ www.btpost.net www.99850.net

Bruce Gordon wrote in news:bgordon-
:

So, at least they got that "Small" Ident Problem solved.... BUT the rest
is still.... well what it is.....

Bruce in alaska


well, what it is....

Thanks for the information. I'm sure someone will go back to rule making
and enforcement, someday....



--
-----
Larry

Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the entrails
of the last cleric.

In article ,
Larry wrote:

Bruce Gordon wrote in news:bgordon-
:

So, at least they got that "Small" Ident Problem solved.... BUT the rest
is still.... well what it is.....

Bruce in alaska


well, what it is....

Thanks for the information. I'm sure someone will go back to rule making
and enforcement, someday....

I am not expecting it in "My Lifetime".......

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

Bruce in alaska wrote in news:fast-125934.11171307072009
@unknown.usenetserver.com:

SO, untill things change, That is the State of AIS, in the USofA....


Keep an eye out! I might put AIS on my diesel stepvan! Evidently FCC
doesn't care.....(c;]

Wonder if I can use W4CSC as the call. I didn't make it up. I paid for
it...

Won't be long you won't need a ham license, either....just money fed to the
ULS machine will do, the only thing FCC lawyers are interested in.

--
-----
Larry

Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the entrails
of the last cleric.

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in
:

Thanks Larry, good research, but this now opens another pandora's box.
If you have a Ships Station license and your equipment is all IMO
approved equipment, even though your vessel size does not require
IMO/SOLAS compliance, will I now be subject to the periodic inspection
and recertification rules these compliances demand? My gut feeling is
yes. Steve


Don't think they'll have anything to do with pleasure craft inspection,
as a practical matter, not by law. Anything that requires WORK they'll
shy away from. My concern was only because boaters take way too casual
a view about radio LICENSING than is healthy, especially in this
paranoia over "homeland security". They think that just because they
don't have to have a license to operate a VHF FM or an automated radar,
that allows them to operate anything else the radio sales dream teams
have to offer, and that's simply not true.

The FCC regs seem quite clear on GMDSS/DSC operation. They have special
licenses AND TRAINING to use them that's required for their proper
operation, not just plug n play on S/V "Her Orgasm" at the whim of
Captain Clegg. I merely wanted to know from someone with FCC
connections what was proper to keep people from getting FCC and CG
nastygrams, which can be very unsettling, even for the rich, when they
start talking about $10,000/DAY!

Noone wants to inspect. But they DO want pleasure boats off these
commercial-in-mind systems. Everyone, of course, except the equipment
manufacturers, who would install one in every Volkswagen if they thought
they could sell it.



--
-----
Larry

Noone will be safe until the last lawyer has been strangled by the
entrails of the last cleric.