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Fuel polishing system report
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems: There was not a drop of water or speck of dirt in the drained fuel. It looked perfect. The 2 Mu filter element was slightly discolored but with nothing visible on the surface and it was clearly not challenged by anything in the fuel. The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. No visible loading though. This system: http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/StriderFuelSystem.htm exceeded all expectations in operation this season. It's simple and intuitive to operate, works in almost any mode, and was trouble free. The only change made during the season was to add a high point loop to the common vent so fuel wouldn't flow into the lower tank at large heel angles. The only operation challenge was forgetting to open the main tank valve a few times since I close the tank which can siphon in case of a fuel leak. Fortunately, the fuel pump makes a distinctive clattering when drawing against a closed valve for several minutes before the engine starts to stumble and I can open the valve from the cockpit. The only surprise was the that transfer pump would only suck about 80% of the fuel out of the lower tank when transferring to the upper tank. Once the boat was hauled, I determined that it is simply because the flow capacity is so high that it sucks air down through the fuel. With the lower draw of the regular fuel pump, it will draw down to a lower level. The operational quirk then is that the polishing system needs to be off to use the last of the fuel in the keel tank. This would be a rare occurrence though since drawing from a tank that low runs the risk of drawing air into the system due to sloshing. This whole system is a testament to the value of a group like this, even for a boat designer. Thanks to all who took time to discuss it while I was developing it. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
"Roger Long" wrote in
: The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. No visible loading though. Normal algae load from the fuel company. You should see the **** in the bottom of the tanker that delivered it to the fuel company's dock! It had shrimp in the ballast water under the fuel! |
Fuel polishing system report
"Larry" wrote in message
... "Roger Long" wrote in : The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. No visible loading though. Normal algae load from the fuel company. You should see the **** in the bottom of the tanker that delivered it to the fuel company's dock! It had shrimp in the ballast water under the fuel! Please! I made a shrimp dinner for friends and family two nights ago. I didn't need to hear this. LOL -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Fuel polishing system report
"Roger Long" wrote in message ... I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems: snipped boring crap Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase? It's fuel filtering. Why not call a spade a spade? The saddest thing about it all is how diesel fuel is so unsuited to anything but being burned. It can't be stored for any decent length of time with out growing all sorts of crud. Pretty damned stupid for yachts where it's often stored for month upon months. The only thing more stupid is people who try to make it sound glamorous by calling it "fuel polishing" and bragging about their systems that only indicate they hardly ever sail. Wilbur Hubbard |
Fuel polishing system report
"Larry" wrote
Normal algae load from the fuel company. Yes, but the difference between the amount on the polishing filter and the primary filter makes me glad I put the system in. Not necessary for fuel of the quality we usually get around here but it should help when I'm buying stuff that may have been sitting in drums on a dock for weeks. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
In article s.com, Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
..... nothing worth quoting. I don't know how it is, but every-so-often WH seems to say something I think worthwhile. The last time I had to go to Google groups to find the rest of what was quoted by someone else, and on the strength of it I removed him from the KF. Oh, what a bad move that was. Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. Justin. PS. I'm putting him back in the KF, it's really not worth letting him out. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
Fuel polishing system report
"Justin C" wrote in message ... In article s.com, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: .... nothing worth quoting. I don't know how it is, but every-so-often WH seems to say something I think worthwhile. The last time I had to go to Google groups to find the rest of what was quoted by someone else, and on the strength of it I removed him from the KF. Oh, what a bad move that was. Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. If he sailed he wouldn't be needing a diesel in the first place. Duh! If he used his diesel so sparingly as you seem to think he would have no need of large integrated tankage where the fuel sits and grows crud. A simple portable six gallon tank would suffice. Think how it really is absurd to ship 50 or more gallons of diesel "just in case" and then spend time, money and effort constantly filtering it in order to keep it usable "just in case." Would it not be ever more so intelligent to only ship the amount one intends to use plus a small safety factor and then use it all to avoid all the stupidity of husbanding that which you have little or no use for? Look at it this way. If you liked to bake bread aboard would you buy 500 pounds of flour even when you knew you only needed 20 pounds to supply all your bread needs for the length of your voyage? Would you set up a system so you could strain the flour through screens each weak to keep the weevils at bay? No you wouldn't. That would be just plain stupid. Would you brag about on sailing newsgroups as if it were an intelligent thing to do? I doubt it because people would quickly point out your folly to you. I am just pointing out the folly of "fuel polishing" and glamorizing a stupid and unnecessary activity by calling it something that it isn't. Sailing is as much about a seamanlike attitude and course of action than it is about trimming sails. Going on and on about "polishing" fuel as if it were something to be proud of is indicative of a lubberly attitude combined with a low IQ. Wilbur Hubbard |
Fuel polishing system report
On 2008-11-11 17:13:59 -0500, Justin C said:
PS. I'm putting him back in the KF, it's really not worth letting him out. Oh, he's not THAT bad. Quick tip: If it's a long post from him, just delete it as it's a meaningless rant. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Fuel polishing system report
Justin C wrote:
Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
"Roger Long" wrote in
: Justin C wrote: Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats. If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely sailing newgroup. If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window, and as a result you have to motor. There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin tossed around. Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor. It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time. I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys! So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important, as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote: "Roger Long" wrote in : Justin C wrote: Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats. If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely sailing newgroup. If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window, and as a result you have to motor. There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin tossed around. Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor. It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time. I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys! So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important, as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards, but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat. Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel, introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising. |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:30 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote: Justin C wrote: Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. In fact, once you leave the realm of the weekend sailor and get into actually going somewhere in a sail boat I don't know a single boat, with the possible exception of the Pardies (who have been known to call into a marina asking for a tow to get in and tie up) , who doesn't have an engine. A mate of mine, coming back from a trip to the W. Coast of India motored for a week to get back. It is all well and good to say that "real sailors sail, but had he not motored he would have got back next year. You see, the monsoons were changing and had he not motored the N.Easterlies would have caught him and that would have been that till next year. Of the blasted trip I just made to Malaysia, helping a friend take his boat down. We had mild weather, "maybe no wind" forcasted and ended up with 20 - 30 K wind and 3 to 4 M beam swell. Then the Main blew out so we are now reduced to a reefed jib, and we were rocking and rolling. Swell and wind on the beam, lee shore with no hidy holes 40 miles to leeward, India to windward and 50 miles north or south to the closest shelter. Midnight, both wives down below barfing and me and Frank in the cockpit hanging on with both hands. So we motored. By the way, for those nautically challenged, my wife says she has discovered a better way of being seasick. Barf into a plastic bag. you don't have to try to hit a moving target when theboat is rolling and the bucket starts slipping and slidding and when you are empty just twist the neck shut and hang on until the next spasm. One good size bag will last nearly 8 hours she reckons. Nope, no motor, no go. Cheers, Bruce in bangkok (bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote: "Roger Long" wrote in : Justin C wrote: Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats. If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely sailing newgroup. If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window, and as a result you have to motor. There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin tossed around. Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor. It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time. I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys! So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important, as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org I keep my boat in a marina with possibly 150 other sail boats. Not a one of them that doesn't have an engine. So much for "Sailors Sail" as all of these boats came here from somewhere else -- like California, Australia, Germany, England... even saw one from Maryland... Real Sailormen do what ever is needed to get where they are going. Always has been that way too. Cheers, Bruce in bangkok (bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:56:44 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz wrote: "Roger Long" wrote in : Justin C wrote: Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to grow those organisms. It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation. For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel. I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that. I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats. If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely sailing newgroup. If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window, and as a result you have to motor. There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin tossed around. Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor. It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time. I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys! So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important, as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards, but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat. Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel, introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising. Damned good for dinghys too... Cheers, Bruce in bangkok (bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Fuel polishing system report
On Nov 11, 1:23*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems: There was not a drop of water or speck of dirt in the drained fuel. *It looked perfect. *The 2 Mu filter element was slightly discolored but with nothing visible on the surface and it was clearly not challenged by anything in the fuel. The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. *No visible loading though. This system: http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/StriderFuelSystem.htm exceeded all expectations in operation this season. *It's simple and intuitive to operate, works in almost any mode, and was trouble free. *The only change made during the season was to add a high point loop to the common vent so fuel wouldn't flow into the lower tank at large heel angles. The only operation challenge was forgetting to open the main tank valve a few times since I close the tank which can siphon in case of a fuel leak. Fortunately, the fuel pump makes a distinctive clattering when drawing against a closed valve for several minutes before the engine starts to stumble and I can open the valve from the cockpit. The only surprise was the that transfer pump would only suck about 80% of the fuel out of the lower tank when transferring to the upper tank. *Once the boat was hauled, I determined that it is simply because the flow capacity is so high that it sucks air down through the fuel. *With the lower draw of the regular fuel pump, it will draw down to a lower level. *The operational quirk then is that the polishing system needs to be off to use the last of the fuel in the keel tank. *This would be a rare occurrence though since drawing from a tank that low runs the risk of drawing air into the system due to sloshing. This whole system is a testament to the value of a group like this, even for a boat designer. *Thanks to all who took time to discuss it while I was developing it. -- Roger Long In order for "the gumk" to grow in your fuel tank their must be water present, no water, no gunk. This is the main reason it is always reccomended that you keep your tank full. A full tank will not draw moist air into the tank through the vent as the fuel expands and contracts when it warms and cools.If you've got water in the fuel, your going to have some kind of growth unless you treat your fuel with an aditive like Biobor. Filtering it, or as some prefer to call it, polishing it, will remove the growth, but it may not remove the water, depending on how long your fuel pickup is. Your best bet is to treat your fuel on a regular basis, keep the tanks full at all times, and change filters at the first sign of trouble. Polishing is only going to make the problem go away for some period of time, but it will be back. Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your engine manufacturer, I've never heard of one reccomending more than a 30 micron filter as the promary. Using more restrictive filters can cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long run, cause all kinds of other problems. |
Fuel polishing system report
Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long run, cause all kinds of other problems. Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". Hint, think about you control power/speed in a diesel. Cheers Martin |
Fuel polishing system report
Capt John wrote:
(Always keep your tank full.) The keep your tank full business has been pretty much demolished here and in other venues. It isn't practical anyway unless you cruise from marina to marina and spend a lot of time fueling. Constantly topping up instead of burning the fuel means that there will always be a large component of older fuel in the tank mix. Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your engine manufacturer..... This can be an issue in most circumstances. However, with the fuel polishing system (I agree BTW that it is a silly name but it's the one in current usage) the Racor gets much cleaner fuel than in a typical system. Because the Racor is one of the smallest filters available it is way oversize for the engine. It's a 15 GPH filter on an engine that normally draws about 1. This makes the pressure drop across it with the finer element much less of an issue. It's also being pressure fed by an electric fuel pump. The gauge between the filter and the engine driven pump always shows positive PSI so I have no concerns. I also have a bypass from the fuel polishing pump that can be opened in a few moments to completely bypass the 2 mu Racor while I change the element. Better to have that one load up than the engine mounted secondary which is harder to change and requires bleeding the injectors afterwards. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
wrote in message
... I have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust 4-stroke outboard that is specifically designed to propell a sailboat efficiently. It has a HUGE, slow turning prop. This prop would look more at home on something north of 60 or 70 HP. I can cruise at hull speed at about 1/4 throttle, and we can carry on a converasaton in the cockpit without raiseing our voices any louder than when we are at home at the dinner table. Did the prop come with the engine or did you change it out when you bought it? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Fuel polishing system report
In article , Martin Baxter
wrote: Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long run, cause all kinds of other problems. Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". Hint, think about you control power/speed in a diesel. Cheers Martin Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions...... |
Fuel polishing system report
In article s.com,
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Roger Long" wrote in message ... I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems: snipped boring crap Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase? It's fuel filtering. Why not call a spade a spade? The saddest thing about it all is how diesel fuel is so unsuited to anything but being burned. It can't be stored for any decent length of time with out growing all sorts of crud. Pretty damned stupid for yachts where it's often stored for month upon months. The only thing more stupid is people who try to make it sound glamorous by calling it "fuel polishing" and bragging about their systems that only indicate they hardly ever sail. Wilbur Hubbard So speaks, a SailHead, with nothing but Wind between his ears.... I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem, whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my Gensets, just spiffy..... -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
Fuel polishing system report
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Fuel polishing system report
Bruce in alaska wrote:
I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem, whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my Gensets, just spiffy..... Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in the sun for a few weeks. My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high prices earlier in the summer. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
And another thing, if you keep your tanks full, you miss out on the washing
action of boat rolling fuel around against the sides of tanks that are less than half full which helps keep down the crud growing there. All in all, from the standpoint of fuel quality, there is probably more downside from keeping tanks full than using most of the stuff up and then refilling. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
"Capt John" wrote in message ... snipped some : In order for "the gumk" to grow in your fuel tank their must be water : present, no water, no gunk. This is the main reason it is always : reccomended that you keep your tank full. A full tank will not draw : moist air into the tank through the vent as the fuel expands and : contracts when it warms and cools.If you've got water in the fuel, : your going to have some kind of growth unless you treat your fuel with : an aditive like Biobor. Filtering it, or as some prefer to call it, : polishing it, will remove the growth, but it may not remove the water, : depending on how long your fuel pickup is. Your best bet is to treat : your fuel on a regular basis, keep the tanks full at all times, and : change filters at the first sign of trouble. Polishing is only going : to make the problem go away for some period of time, but it will be : back. snip Wrong! http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:_vvnJuQXrjUJ:www.dieselpage.com/art1110fd "Once water has been removed from the fuel system, bacteria can still grow in the fuel. This bacteria is introduced by the water but can use the diesel fuel as a medium to feed and multiply." Wilbur Hubbard |
Fuel polishing system report
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Fuel polishing system report
On Nov 12, 12:18*pm, Capt John wrote:
snip Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your engine manufacturer, I've never heard of one reccomending more than a 30 micron filter as the promary. Using more restrictive filters can cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long run, cause all kinds of other problems.- Hide quoted text - As I recall, if you check with Racor I think you'll find the 2, 10 and 30 micron filters have the same flow rating. And for the most part we are talking low power, low flow rate engines here. So it's really a non-issue. FWIW I've been running 2 micron Racors on Lehman 120s and 135s, as well as other brands, for decades with no problems of any kind. Capt. Bill |
Fuel polishing system report
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Fuel polishing system report
Yves Gelinas of Cape Horn fame also sailed around without an engine.
Much depends on your objectives. If you just want to go around, stopping at the minimum number of ports for resupply, the space and weight of an engine may well be better devoted to other things. It can make landfalls nervewracking though with sleep deprivation due to higher traffic, light winds, currents, and unfamiliar waters all piling up into a situation that could be pretty dangerous. It nearly happened to Yves approaching Ireland. A major objective of my cruising is to explore and photograph the shores closely and extensively when I get there. This is often best and most enjoyably done under power. I get plenty of sailing in on my cruises. This is also the times, the wind often being light or non existant, when engine failure could be most threatening to the boat. I plan to be doing a lot of this close up to the cliffs in Newfoundland where it's too deep to anchor if the engine quits. -- Roger Long |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:58:01 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:14:09 -0500, wrote: I don't seem to have any scheduling problems, and my engine is very good. If I'm not back on Monday, I'll be back on Tuesday... or Thursday. And it sounds as if I use a lot less gasoline than you used diesel fuel. If you always have time to wait for the wind to come up, you don't need any engine at all. How do you charge your batteries when you spend weeks on the boat? Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. When I run the outboard, I often have to turn on some lights in the cabin to avoid overcharging. It has never been a problem. If I wanted all the comforst of home on my boat... I'd stay home. I obviously didn't say or even imply that I never have use for an engine Wayne. If you need to invent arguments, then I guess we have our answer. I agree that a diesel has some advantages. The truth is that both diesel inboards and gasoline outboards have both advantages and disadvantages. Neither is perfect, and neither can be said to be "better". |
Fuel polishing system report
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:22:34 -0800 (PST), "Capt.Bill"
wrote: On Nov 12, 12:18*pm, Capt John wrote: snip Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your engine manufacturer, I've never heard of one reccomending more than a 30 micron filter as the promary. Using more restrictive filters can cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long run, cause all kinds of other problems.- Hide quoted text - As I recall, if you check with Racor I think you'll find the 2, 10 and 30 micron filters have the same flow rating. And for the most part we are talking low power, low flow rate engines here. So it's really a non-issue. FWIW I've been running 2 micron Racors on Lehman 120s and 135s, as well as other brands, for decades with no problems of any kind. The workable flow rate can't be a secret from the manufacturer. So ask. Casady |
Fuel polishing system report
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Fuel polishing system report
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:03:06 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:01:09 -0500, wrote: Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. Running a god sized chart plotter and radar underway can use as much as 20 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. I stand by my original statement that outboards are not suitable for serious cruising. Make that "good sized chart plotter" although god sized probably uses power also. |
Fuel polishing system report
wrote
The truth is that both diesel inboards and gasoline outboards have both advantages and disadvantages. For example, I don't worry much about condensation in my gas tank during the off season... http://blizzard.zmm.com/g20/outboard.jpg |
Fuel polishing system report
In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote: Bruce in alaska wrote: I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem, whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my Gensets, just spiffy..... Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in the sun for a few weeks. My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high prices earlier in the summer. Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is KNOWN GOOD Fuel. RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal...... -- Bruce in alaska add path after fast to reply |
Fuel polishing system report
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Fuel polishing system report
Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:01:09 -0500, wrote: Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. Running a god sized chart plotter and radar underway can use as much as 20 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. I stand by my original statement that outboards are not suitable for serious cruising. Damn, why can't people say amp-hours when the mean amp hours? I run a lap top, with an auxiliary screen in the companionway, and yes, it consumes about 30 amp-hours a day,,, I also have 40 watts of solar panels that generated about the same per day. When the computer is off, like at anchor I get ahead, (other electronics are running and I fall behind when sailing continuously, but I have enough battery capacity to go several days before it becomes an issue) Cheers Martin |
Fuel polishing system report
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:03:06 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:01:09 -0500, wrote: Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. Running a god sized chart plotter and radar underway can use as much as 20 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. I stand by my original statement that outboards are not suitable for serious cruising. Another gross exaggeration to try and support an unsupportable premise. I HAVE a chartplotter and a radar on my sailboat. There is no setting I could use on them that would come even remotely close to drawing 20 to 30 amps. See my post Salty, he means amp-hours,,, it's like if I asked you what kind of gas milage you got on the highway and you said "Oh about 23 gallons". Cheers Martin |
Fuel polishing system report
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:00:31 -0500, Marty wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:03:06 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:01:09 -0500, wrote: Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. Running a god sized chart plotter and radar underway can use as much as 20 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. I stand by my original statement that outboards are not suitable for serious cruising. Another gross exaggeration to try and support an unsupportable premise. I HAVE a chartplotter and a radar on my sailboat. There is no setting I could use on them that would come even remotely close to drawing 20 to 30 amps. See my post Salty, he means amp-hours,,, it's like if I asked you what kind of gas milage you got on the highway and you said "Oh about 23 gallons". Cheers Martin Amp hours per what time period? His assertions are wild and without merit. I rarely leave my RADAR in transmit mode full time unless warranted by the conditions and situation. It spends a lot of time in standby, and when in transmit, It's usually not cranked up very much. As long as I can see what's within a mile or two or three of me, I'm fine. If I'm anywhere near the routes of a high speed ferry, I need to see farther. That's not often. I may not use 30 amp hours in a WEEK (or more) of sailing. My outboard and solar panel have no problem staying ahead of what I use, so Wayne's argument is just plain silly. In fact, I have to monitor things carefully and turn on interior lights to bleed off the surplus, so I don't overcharge the batteries when motorsailing with the outboard running - even at low speeds. |
Fuel polishing system report
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:00:31 -0500, Marty wrote: wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:03:06 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:01:09 -0500, wrote: Other than instruments, VHF, and a DVD movie here and there on a little player, I don't really use any power, so a pretty small solar panel, coupled with limited amounts of motor sailing usually leaves me with a surplus. Running a god sized chart plotter and radar underway can use as much as 20 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. I stand by my original statement that outboards are not suitable for serious cruising. Another gross exaggeration to try and support an unsupportable premise. I HAVE a chartplotter and a radar on my sailboat. There is no setting I could use on them that would come even remotely close to drawing 20 to 30 amps. See my post Salty, he means amp-hours,,, it's like if I asked you what kind of gas milage you got on the highway and you said "Oh about 23 gallons". Cheers Martin Amp hours per what time period? Damn, guilty as charged. Amp hours per day.... gr As I said, my modest solar panels do pretty much everything. Mind you the alternator on my Volvo is rated at 130A or so,, cranks out 35A at idle... but that's just what came with it. Cheers Martin Cheers Martin |
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