In article ,
Bruce in alaska wrote:

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in
the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no
addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K
USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of
water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with
Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG
Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge
with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few
of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is
KNOWN GOOD Fuel. RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them
exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on
the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel
Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal......

In article
,
Capt John wrote:

On Nov 12, 2:46*pm, You wrote:
In article , Martin Baxter
wrote:

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.

Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". *Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions......

You need to study up a little, try asking your engine manufacturer
about those filters. The marine specialist at HO Penn, our local Cat
dealer on Long Island, was adamant about this. Said regardless of the
engine manufacturer, they specify the 30 micron filters for a reason.
Your probably more likely to get away with it with a little sail boat
engine than a larger high output engine. For the price of a rebuild,
or replacement, I'll take the manufacturers advice over your's and day
of the week.

Your ity bity KittyCAT Diesels don't even come close to the BIG YELLOW
CAT's in my Summer PowerHouse. (2.8 MegaWatts worth) Our CAT Service
Folks spec'd and installed MULTIPLE Racor 2020 10 Micron Primary Fuel
Filters on the 4" fuel line that feeds the PowerHouse from the Tank Farm.
The PowerHouse was Designed by Ed Wahl, one of CAT's most repected Power
Generation Engineer dudes, who taught a whole Generation of CAT Field
Service Folks how to do their JOBs, being the CAT Power Generation
Engineering Instructor, in his later life.

If your running your filters until the engine is getting "Starved for
Fuel", and "running lean", then your and absolute Moroooooon, (Bugs Bunny
Definition) as that would mean that there isn't enough fuel to fully
fill the Injectors each time they fire, AND that also means that there
would be NO fuel coming back thru the Fuel Return Line, AND consequently
No Cooling of the Injector Tips, which is the Primary Reason for the
Fuel Return Line, in the FIRST PLACE. Very Good way to BURN OUT the
Injector Tips on your CATs, Sonny.... Just where did you learn your
Diesel Engineering.... Dufus's R Us???

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

"Bruce in alaska" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce in alaska wrote:

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if
WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums
in
the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the
reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the
fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long
way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few
problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no
addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K
USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of
water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with
Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG
Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge
with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few
of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is
KNOWN GOOD Fuel. RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them
exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on
the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel
Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal......

In article
,
Capt John wrote:

On Nov 12, 2:46 pm, You wrote:
In article , Martin Baxter
wrote:

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the
engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the
long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.

Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions......

You need to study up a little, try asking your engine manufacturer
about those filters. The marine specialist at HO Penn, our local Cat
dealer on Long Island, was adamant about this. Said regardless of the
engine manufacturer, they specify the 30 micron filters for a reason.
Your probably more likely to get away with it with a little sail boat
engine than a larger high output engine. For the price of a rebuild,
or replacement, I'll take the manufacturers advice over your's and day
of the week.

Your ity bity KittyCAT Diesels don't even come close to the BIG YELLOW
CAT's in my Summer PowerHouse. (2.8 MegaWatts worth) Our CAT Service
Folks spec'd and installed MULTIPLE Racor 2020 10 Micron Primary Fuel
Filters on the 4" fuel line that feeds the PowerHouse from the Tank Farm.
The PowerHouse was Designed by Ed Wahl, one of CAT's most repected Power
Generation Engineer dudes, who taught a whole Generation of CAT Field
Service Folks how to do their JOBs, being the CAT Power Generation
Engineering Instructor, in his later life.

If your running your filters until the engine is getting "Starved for
Fuel", and "running lean", then your and absolute Moroooooon, (Bugs Bunny
Definition) as that would mean that there isn't enough fuel to fully
fill the Injectors each time they fire, AND that also means that there
would be NO fuel coming back thru the Fuel Return Line, AND consequently
No Cooling of the Injector Tips, which is the Primary Reason for the
Fuel Return Line, in the FIRST PLACE. Very Good way to BURN OUT the
Injector Tips on your CATs, Sonny.... Just where did you learn your
Diesel Engineering.... Dufus's R Us???


You ain't the sharpest tool in the shed yourself, dude!

What you say makes no sense. When you rev up a diesel it revs up because
more fuel gets injected. Except at designed RPM all diesels burn learn. Only
at designed RPM is the mixture optimal. Unless it's turbo or supercharged
what determines the volume of air pushed into the cylinder by atmospheric
pressure is the displacement of the piston therein. When you throttle down
it loses rpms because you decrease the fuel supply - air supply remains a
constant. You can't run it lean because if there is limited fuel then there
is limited rpms. It self-adjusts.

Get a clue, dude.

--
Gregory Hall

Bruce in alaska wrote in news:fast-835618.10442214112008
@netnews.worldnet.att.net:

If your running your filters until the engine is getting "Starved for
Fuel", and "running lean", then your and absolute Moroooooon, (Bugs Bunny
Definition) as that would mean that there isn't enough fuel to fully
fill the Injectors each time they fire, AND that also means that there
would be NO fuel coming back thru the Fuel Return Line, AND consequently
No Cooling of the Injector Tips, which is the Primary Reason for the
Fuel Return Line, in the FIRST PLACE. Very Good way to BURN OUT the
Injector Tips on your CATs, Sonny.... Just where did you learn your
Diesel Engineering.... Dufus's R Us???


Huh? How the hell do you get it to idle?? The intake is either naturally
aspirated or supercharged (4-stroke) and you STARVE IT OF FUEL TO MAKE IT
SLOW DOWN! It's nearly starved to death at idle with just enough fire to
turn it over....

?????/ I'm not sure about your engine, but my engines regulate FUEL
SUPPLY when I press down on the pedal or push the throttles forward...or
aft. What kinda cooling does the injector tip require when there's so
little fuel in ALL THAT COOL AIR the damned thing hardly fires at all?!

You musta missed something. A diesel engine is one of the simplest
machines ever built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU09jijFMiI
See all the fire left over from this one running SO LEAN AT SLOW SPEED?
You're looking right into the combustion chamber of a running ship engine.
See any smoke?? Nope.

It's so hot in there lube oil is dripping off all over the place....

Duhhh...

On Nov 14, 2:44*pm, Bruce in alaska wrote:
In article ,
*Bruce in alaska wrote:





In article ,
*"Roger Long" wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. *Were those drums sealed all these years? *I wonder if *WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in
the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. *There were a few problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no
addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K
USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of
water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with
Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG
Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge
with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few
of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is
KNOWN GOOD Fuel. *RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them
exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on
the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel
Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal......

In article
,
*Capt John wrote:





On Nov 12, 2:46*pm, You wrote:
In article , Martin Baxter
wrote:

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.

Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". *Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions......

You need to study up a little, try asking your engine manufacturer
about those filters. The marine specialist at HO Penn, our local Cat
dealer on Long Island, was adamant about this. Said regardless of the
engine manufacturer, they specify the 30 micron filters for a reason.
Your probably more likely to get away with it with a little sail boat
engine than a larger high output engine. For the price of a rebuild,
or replacement, I'll take the manufacturers advice over your's and day
of the week.

Your ity bity KittyCAT Diesels don't even come close to the BIG YELLOW
CAT's in my Summer PowerHouse. (2.8 MegaWatts worth) Our CAT Service
Folks spec'd and installed MULTIPLE Racor 2020 10 Micron Primary Fuel
Filters on the 4" fuel line that feeds the PowerHouse from the Tank Farm.
The PowerHouse was Designed by Ed Wahl, one of CAT's most repected Power
Generation Engineer dudes, who taught a whole Generation of CAT Field
Service Folks how to do their JOBs, being the CAT Power Generation
Engineering Instructor, in his later life.

If your running your filters until the engine is getting "Starved for
Fuel", and "running lean", then your and absolute Moroooooon, (Bugs Bunny
Definition) as that would mean that there isn't enough fuel to fully
fill the Injectors each time they fire, AND that also means that there
would be NO fuel coming back thru the Fuel Return Line, AND consequently
No Cooling of the Injector Tips, which is the Primary Reason for the
Fuel Return Line, in the FIRST PLACE. *Very Good way to BURN OUT the
Injector Tips on your CATs, Sonny.... *Just where did you learn your
Diesel Engineering.... Dufus's R Us???

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well Bruce, if I was starving the engine to the point that the
injectors were no longer getting enough fuel to return any fuel via
the return line then, you surely realize that their would be a very
significant reduction in power output, to the point that the engine
would stall. In your case, your talking about a generator, if you put
an ammeter on the output of that generator you'll probably find that
it's not really loaded up to full capacity, they rarely are, except
when your starting electric motors. In our case, we're talking about
boats, that's the reason for this being under rec.boats, and boat
engines tend to be much more heavily loaded up than say a truck or a
generator engine, that's why they rate generators with a constant load
and intermittant load rating. In boats, what tends to happen is that
the filters start to clog up while your running, over time. Some of
the first signs of this are increased black smoke behind the boat (you
see a haze, it's not like a building on fire), soot buildup on the
transom around the exhaust, increased engine temperature and increased
exhaust temperature. At some point, if allowed to go on, the engine
begins to loose RPM's. Remenber, when you increase the throttle
setting on a diesel your increasing the amount of fuel delivered to
each cylinder and advancing the point where the fuel is injected. So
when the fuel system is restricted the amount of fuel delivered per
stroke drops slightly, but the advance doesn't change. Another symptom
of a restricted fuel supply is if you've been up and running, and you
have to slow down, for whatever reason, and then you try to come back
up to speed, the engines will not come back up to the same RPM's as
they were before.

"Capt John" wrote in message
...

Well Bruce, if I was starving the engine to the point that the
injectors were no longer getting enough fuel to return any fuel via
the return line then, you surely realize that their would be a very
significant reduction in power output, to the point that the engine
would stall. In your case, your talking about a generator, if you put
an ammeter on the output of that generator you'll probably find that
it's not really loaded up to full capacity, they rarely are, except
when your starting electric motors. In our case, we're talking about
boats, that's the reason for this being under rec.boats, and boat
engines tend to be much more heavily loaded up than say a truck or a
generator engine, that's why they rate generators with a constant load
and intermittant load rating. In boats, what tends to happen is that
the filters start to clog up while your running, over time. Some of
the first signs of this are increased black smoke behind the boat (you
see a haze, it's not like a building on fire), soot buildup on the
transom around the exhaust, increased engine temperature and increased
exhaust temperature. At some point, if allowed to go on, the engine
begins to loose RPM's. Remenber, when you increase the throttle
setting on a diesel your increasing the amount of fuel delivered to
each cylinder and advancing the point where the fuel is injected. So
when the fuel system is restricted the amount of fuel delivered per
stroke drops slightly, but the advance doesn't change. Another symptom
of a restricted fuel supply is if you've been up and running, and you
have to slow down, for whatever reason, and then you try to come back
up to speed, the engines will not come back up to the same RPM's as
they were before.

All you have to do if for any reason you have to run at low load for a long
time then open up to as near as full power as you can get from time to time.
This will clear everything out from the nozzles and ensure that the exhaust
remains clear. It may not be easy always on a generator because you may not
be able to control the load but for a boat propulsion engine if you open her
up the prop will take the power as the power taken is proportional to revs
cubed. A diesel will not gum up its injectors unless you run it for long
periods at less than 1/2 or (better) 2/3 load without bursts of higher
power.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:56:12 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"Capt John" wrote in message
...

Well Bruce, if I was starving the engine to the point that the
injectors were no longer getting enough fuel to return any fuel via
the return line then, you surely realize that their would be a very
significant reduction in power output, to the point that the engine
would stall. In your case, your talking about a generator, if you put
an ammeter on the output of that generator you'll probably find that
it's not really loaded up to full capacity, they rarely are, except
when your starting electric motors. In our case, we're talking about
boats, that's the reason for this being under rec.boats, and boat
engines tend to be much more heavily loaded up than say a truck or a
generator engine, that's why they rate generators with a constant load
and intermittant load rating. In boats, what tends to happen is that
the filters start to clog up while your running, over time. Some of
the first signs of this are increased black smoke behind the boat (you
see a haze, it's not like a building on fire), soot buildup on the
transom around the exhaust, increased engine temperature and increased
exhaust temperature. At some point, if allowed to go on, the engine
begins to loose RPM's. Remenber, when you increase the throttle
setting on a diesel your increasing the amount of fuel delivered to
each cylinder and advancing the point where the fuel is injected. So
when the fuel system is restricted the amount of fuel delivered per
stroke drops slightly, but the advance doesn't change. Another symptom
of a restricted fuel supply is if you've been up and running, and you
have to slow down, for whatever reason, and then you try to come back
up to speed, the engines will not come back up to the same RPM's as
they were before.

All you have to do if for any reason you have to run at low load for a long
time then open up to as near as full power as you can get from time to time.
This will clear everything out from the nozzles and ensure that the exhaust
remains clear. It may not be easy always on a generator because you may not
be able to control the load but for a boat propulsion engine if you open her
up the prop will take the power as the power taken is proportional to revs
cubed. A diesel will not gum up its injectors unless you run it for long
periods at less than 1/2 or (better) 2/3 load without bursts of higher
power.



You seem to have posted this message under two different names but it
doesn't make any difference, you're not posting accurate information.

With any diesel, the first symptom of clogging filters is a loss in
power as the only thing the filters are doing is restricting the fuel
flow. It doesn't make any difference whether the engine is in a boat,
a bulldozer, a generator set, in your pickup, the symptom of clogging
filters is a loss in power.

Black smoke from the exhaust is always a result of a rich mixture -
usually caused by trying to accelerate the engine quicker then it can
handle the extra fuel, or overloading the engine to the extent that it
cannot produce its rated RPM. Again, it doesn't make any difference
what kind of diesel engine it is the symptoms are the same.

Your supposition that, somehow, marine engines are rated in a
different manner, again is incorrect, as again all diesel engines are
rated for maximum continuous power. Yes, I know that marine engines
for the pleasure boat market have a maximum (for short periods) rating
but that is just to sucker the uninitiated with higher H.P. numbers,
but call/write the distributor and ask him "how fast can I run the
engine for all day" and guess what? You'll get told the "maximum
continuous" RPM/H.P.

Finally, you seem to think that, somehow, your marine engine is
different then diesel engines intended to be used as, say generator
engines. Have a look at the parts book of any industrial diesel engine
manufacturer and you'll find that in nearly all cases marine and
generator engines use the same parts. After all they are both intended
for continuous RPM, continuous Power use. Vehicle engines will usually
have a lighter flywheel and/or crankshaft. Different injectors are
also used but that is a factor of the engine being intended for
different H.P. output.

Diesel engines are not rocket science and they all work the same way.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)