On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my
experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about
not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse
outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards,
but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat.
Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery
charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel,
introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are
inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be
unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion
outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:30 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he
needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long
enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation
that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If
that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life),
fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for
years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value
judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another
personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as
Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable
engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a
sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right
and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When
conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in
this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very
slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in
light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just
as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine
slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically
have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the
large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for
long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot
more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's
fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between
fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want
the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for
reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my
cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean
fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

In fact, once you leave the realm of the weekend sailor and get into
actually going somewhere in a sail boat I don't know a single boat,
with the possible exception of the Pardies (who have been known to
call into a marina asking for a tow to get in and tie up) , who
doesn't have an engine.

A mate of mine, coming back from a trip to the W. Coast of India
motored for a week to get back. It is all well and good to say that
"real sailors sail, but had he not motored he would have got back next
year. You see, the monsoons were changing and had he not motored the
N.Easterlies would have caught him and that would have been that till
next year.

Of the blasted trip I just made to Malaysia, helping a friend take his
boat down. We had mild weather, "maybe no wind" forcasted and ended up
with 20 - 30 K wind and 3 to 4 M beam swell. Then the Main blew out so
we are now reduced to a reefed jib, and we were rocking and rolling.
Swell and wind on the beam, lee shore with no hidy holes 40 miles to
leeward, India to windward and 50 miles north or south to the closest
shelter.

Midnight, both wives down below barfing and me and Frank in the
cockpit hanging on with both hands.

So we motored.

By the way, for those nautically challenged, my wife says she has
discovered a better way of being seasick. Barf into a plastic bag. you
don't have to try to hit a moving target when theboat is rolling and
the bucket starts slipping and slidding and when you are empty just
twist the neck shut and hang on until the next spasm. One good size
bag will last nearly 8 hours she reckons.

Nope, no motor, no go.
Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

I keep my boat in a marina with possibly 150 other sail boats. Not a
one of them that doesn't have an engine.

So much for "Sailors Sail" as all of these boats came here from
somewhere else -- like California, Australia, Germany, England... even
saw one from Maryland...

Real Sailormen do what ever is needed to get where they are going.
Always has been that way too.

Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:56:44 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my
experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about
not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse
outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards,
but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat.
Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery
charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel,
introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are
inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be
unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion
outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising.


Damned good for dinghys too...
Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Nov 11, 1:23*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems:

There was not a drop of water or speck of dirt in the drained fuel. *It
looked perfect. *The 2 Mu filter element was slightly discolored but with
nothing visible on the surface and it was clearly not challenged by anything
in the fuel.

The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had
clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. *No visible loading though.

This system:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/StriderFuelSystem.htm

exceeded all expectations in operation this season. *It's simple and
intuitive to operate, works in almost any mode, and was trouble free. *The
only change made during the season was to add a high point loop to the
common vent so fuel wouldn't flow into the lower tank at large heel angles.
The only operation challenge was forgetting to open the main tank valve a
few times since I close the tank which can siphon in case of a fuel leak.
Fortunately, the fuel pump makes a distinctive clattering when drawing
against a closed valve for several minutes before the engine starts to
stumble and I can open the valve from the cockpit.

The only surprise was the that transfer pump would only suck about 80% of
the fuel out of the lower tank when transferring to the upper tank. *Once
the boat was hauled, I determined that it is simply because the flow
capacity is so high that it sucks air down through the fuel. *With the lower
draw of the regular fuel pump, it will draw down to a lower level. *The
operational quirk then is that the polishing system needs to be off to use
the last of the fuel in the keel tank. *This would be a rare occurrence
though since drawing from a tank that low runs the risk of drawing air into
the system due to sloshing.

This whole system is a testament to the value of a group like this, even for
a boat designer. *Thanks to all who took time to discuss it while I was
developing it.

--
Roger Long

In order for "the gumk" to grow in your fuel tank their must be water
present, no water, no gunk. This is the main reason it is always
reccomended that you keep your tank full. A full tank will not draw
moist air into the tank through the vent as the fuel expands and
contracts when it warms and cools.If you've got water in the fuel,
your going to have some kind of growth unless you treat your fuel with
an aditive like Biobor. Filtering it, or as some prefer to call it,
polishing it, will remove the growth, but it may not remove the water,
depending on how long your fuel pickup is. Your best bet is to treat
your fuel on a regular basis, keep the tanks full at all times, and
change filters at the first sign of trouble. Polishing is only going
to make the problem go away for some period of time, but it will be
back.

Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your
engine manufacturer, I've never heard of one reccomending more than a
30 micron filter as the promary. Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.


Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Capt John wrote:

(Always keep your tank full.)

The keep your tank full business has been pretty much demolished here and in
other venues. It isn't practical anyway unless you cruise from marina to
marina and spend a lot of time fueling. Constantly topping up instead of
burning the fuel means that there will always be a large component of older
fuel in the tank mix.


Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your
engine manufacturer.....

This can be an issue in most circumstances. However, with the fuel
polishing system (I agree BTW that it is a silly name but it's the one in
current usage) the Racor gets much cleaner fuel than in a typical system.
Because the Racor is one of the smallest filters available it is way
oversize for the engine. It's a 15 GPH filter on an engine that normally
draws about 1. This makes the pressure drop across it with the finer
element much less of an issue. It's also being pressure fed by an electric
fuel pump. The gauge between the filter and the engine driven pump always
shows positive PSI so I have no concerns.

I also have a bypass from the fuel polishing pump that can be opened in a
few moments to completely bypass the 2 mu Racor while I change the element.
Better to have that one load up than the engine mounted secondary which is
harder to change and requires bleeding the injectors afterwards.

--
Roger Long

wrote in message
...
I have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust 4-stroke outboard that is
specifically designed to propell a sailboat efficiently. It has a
HUGE, slow turning prop. This prop would look more at home on
something north of 60 or 70 HP. I can cruise at hull speed at about
1/4 throttle, and we can carry on a converasaton in the cockpit
without raiseing our voices any louder than when we are at home at the
dinner table.


Did the prop come with the engine or did you change it out when you bought
it?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article , Martin Baxter
wrote:

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.


Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions......

In article s.com,
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems:
snipped boring crap

Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase?

It's fuel filtering. Why not call a spade a spade? The saddest thing about
it all is how diesel fuel is so unsuited to anything but being burned. It
can't be stored for any decent length of time with out growing all sorts of
crud. Pretty damned stupid for yachts where it's often stored for month upon
months. The only thing more stupid is people who try to make it sound
glamorous by calling it "fuel polishing" and bragging about their systems
that only indicate they hardly ever sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

So speaks, a SailHead, with nothing but Wind between his ears....
I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

--
Bruce in alaska
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