On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my
experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about
not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse
outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards,
but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat.
Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery
charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel,
introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are
inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be
unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion
outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

I keep my boat in a marina with possibly 150 other sail boats. Not a
one of them that doesn't have an engine.

So much for "Sailors Sail" as all of these boats came here from
somewhere else -- like California, Australia, Germany, England... even
saw one from Maryland...

Real Sailormen do what ever is needed to get where they are going.
Always has been that way too.

Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:30 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he
needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long
enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation
that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If
that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life),
fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for
years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value
judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another
personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as
Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable
engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a
sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right
and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When
conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in
this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very
slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in
light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just
as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine
slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically
have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the
large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for
long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot
more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's
fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between
fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want
the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for
reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my
cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean
fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

In fact, once you leave the realm of the weekend sailor and get into
actually going somewhere in a sail boat I don't know a single boat,
with the possible exception of the Pardies (who have been known to
call into a marina asking for a tow to get in and tie up) , who
doesn't have an engine.

A mate of mine, coming back from a trip to the W. Coast of India
motored for a week to get back. It is all well and good to say that
"real sailors sail, but had he not motored he would have got back next
year. You see, the monsoons were changing and had he not motored the
N.Easterlies would have caught him and that would have been that till
next year.

Of the blasted trip I just made to Malaysia, helping a friend take his
boat down. We had mild weather, "maybe no wind" forcasted and ended up
with 20 - 30 K wind and 3 to 4 M beam swell. Then the Main blew out so
we are now reduced to a reefed jib, and we were rocking and rolling.
Swell and wind on the beam, lee shore with no hidy holes 40 miles to
leeward, India to windward and 50 miles north or south to the closest
shelter.

Midnight, both wives down below barfing and me and Frank in the
cockpit hanging on with both hands.

So we motored.

By the way, for those nautically challenged, my wife says she has
discovered a better way of being seasick. Barf into a plastic bag. you
don't have to try to hit a moving target when theboat is rolling and
the bucket starts slipping and slidding and when you are empty just
twist the neck shut and hang on until the next spasm. One good size
bag will last nearly 8 hours she reckons.

Nope, no motor, no go.
Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On 2008-11-12 08:58:38 -0500, said:

In fact, once you leave the realm of the weekend sailor and get into
actually going somewhere in a sail boat I don't know a single boat,
with the possible exception of the Pardies (who have been known to
call into a marina asking for a tow to get in and tie up) , who
doesn't have an engine.

Chased down a guy who sailed an engineless boat into Soper's Hole one
year, caught up to him in the bar. Only after we got back home did I
figure out that it was Iolaire skippered by Don Street.

Pic and fuller narrative at
http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/sopers/harbor/6-21.html

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

In article s.com,
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems:
snipped boring crap

Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase?

It's fuel filtering. Why not call a spade a spade? The saddest thing about
it all is how diesel fuel is so unsuited to anything but being burned. It
can't be stored for any decent length of time with out growing all sorts of
crud. Pretty damned stupid for yachts where it's often stored for month upon
months. The only thing more stupid is people who try to make it sound
glamorous by calling it "fuel polishing" and bragging about their systems
that only indicate they hardly ever sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

So speaks, a SailHead, with nothing but Wind between his ears....
I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

--
Roger Long

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no
addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K
USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of
water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with
Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG
Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge
with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few
of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is
KNOWN GOOD Fuel. RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them
exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on
the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel
Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal......

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

In article ,
Bruce in alaska wrote:

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Bruce in alaska wrote:

I've run Diesel from 55USG Drums filled during WWII, with no problem,
whatsoever. This stuff is over 50 years old, and makes power in my
Gensets, just spiffy.....

Interesting. Were those drums sealed all these years? I wonder if WWII
diesel (different stuff than we have today) sealed into drums with the
intention that it would be stored for a long time would give the same
results as modern diesel that's been sitting in 3/4 to 1/2 full drums in
the
sun for a few weeks.

My original comment about drums was really just shorthand for the reports
I've received about poor fuel quality up in Newfoundland where the fishing
restrictions have slowed sales to the point that stuff which is a long way
down the supply chain anyway gets pretty funky. There were a few problems
here in Maine this summer simply because the long hoses at some marinas
would grow stuff when no one came along for days to buy due to the high
prices earlier in the summer.

Sealed Drums, filled in 1944 by the US Navy. Straight #2 Diesel, no
addatives or other crap. My Tank Farm has 250K USG of Diesel #2, and 15K
USG of Diesel #1 in it, and after a winter, we get less than 40 USG of
water out of ALL 20 Tanks. Never had to treat ANY of the Diesel with
Biocide, since we switched to receiving our fuel in 6000 USG
Over-the-Road Tanks on a Freight Barge, rather than from the Fuel Barge
with Sea Water Ballasting, and that was 20 years ago. I still keep a few
of those Navy Surplus Drums of fuel around for emergencies, as it is
KNOWN GOOD Fuel. RaCor filters are a wondrous thing, I use them
exclusively, both for the Winter and Summer Powerhouses, as well as on
the lines to the Fuel Dock. Never had a problem with ANY of the Diesel
Fuel System. Now the Gasoline Stuff is a TOTALLY Different deal......

In article
,
Capt John wrote:

On Nov 12, 2:46*pm, You wrote:
In article , Martin Baxter
wrote:

Capt John wrote: Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.

Huh? Diesels do not run "lean". *Hint, think about you control
power/speed in a diesel.

Cheers
Martin

Just one of a few of Capt. John's misconceptions......

You need to study up a little, try asking your engine manufacturer
about those filters. The marine specialist at HO Penn, our local Cat
dealer on Long Island, was adamant about this. Said regardless of the
engine manufacturer, they specify the 30 micron filters for a reason.
Your probably more likely to get away with it with a little sail boat
engine than a larger high output engine. For the price of a rebuild,
or replacement, I'll take the manufacturers advice over your's and day
of the week.

Your ity bity KittyCAT Diesels don't even come close to the BIG YELLOW
CAT's in my Summer PowerHouse. (2.8 MegaWatts worth) Our CAT Service
Folks spec'd and installed MULTIPLE Racor 2020 10 Micron Primary Fuel
Filters on the 4" fuel line that feeds the PowerHouse from the Tank Farm.
The PowerHouse was Designed by Ed Wahl, one of CAT's most repected Power
Generation Engineer dudes, who taught a whole Generation of CAT Field
Service Folks how to do their JOBs, being the CAT Power Generation
Engineering Instructor, in his later life.

If your running your filters until the engine is getting "Starved for
Fuel", and "running lean", then your and absolute Moroooooon, (Bugs Bunny
Definition) as that would mean that there isn't enough fuel to fully
fill the Injectors each time they fire, AND that also means that there
would be NO fuel coming back thru the Fuel Return Line, AND consequently
No Cooling of the Injector Tips, which is the Primary Reason for the
Fuel Return Line, in the FIRST PLACE. Very Good way to BURN OUT the
Injector Tips on your CATs, Sonny.... Just where did you learn your
Diesel Engineering.... Dufus's R Us???

--
Bruce in alaska
add path after fast to reply

"Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase?"

The entire filtration industry adopted the term 'polishing' in about
1925. 'Polishing' via a filter means that the filter removes at a
maximum 0.05% (by weight) of debris per 99,05% (by weight) of liquid
filtered. So, 'polishing' can be be by recirculation or single pass
if the removal % is lower than 0,0005. Filtration removals at greater
than that .0005 level are called 'depth' or 'cake' filtration - this
has been the 'jargon of the filter industry for almost 100 years.

On Nov 11, 1:23*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems:

There was not a drop of water or speck of dirt in the drained fuel. *It
looked perfect. *The 2 Mu filter element was slightly discolored but with
nothing visible on the surface and it was clearly not challenged by anything
in the fuel.

The previously white polishing system filter was a dark grey brown and had
clearly picked up quite a bit of stuff. *No visible loading though.

This system:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~rlma/StriderFuelSystem.htm

exceeded all expectations in operation this season. *It's simple and
intuitive to operate, works in almost any mode, and was trouble free. *The
only change made during the season was to add a high point loop to the
common vent so fuel wouldn't flow into the lower tank at large heel angles.
The only operation challenge was forgetting to open the main tank valve a
few times since I close the tank which can siphon in case of a fuel leak.
Fortunately, the fuel pump makes a distinctive clattering when drawing
against a closed valve for several minutes before the engine starts to
stumble and I can open the valve from the cockpit.

The only surprise was the that transfer pump would only suck about 80% of
the fuel out of the lower tank when transferring to the upper tank. *Once
the boat was hauled, I determined that it is simply because the flow
capacity is so high that it sucks air down through the fuel. *With the lower
draw of the regular fuel pump, it will draw down to a lower level. *The
operational quirk then is that the polishing system needs to be off to use
the last of the fuel in the keel tank. *This would be a rare occurrence
though since drawing from a tank that low runs the risk of drawing air into
the system due to sloshing.

This whole system is a testament to the value of a group like this, even for
a boat designer. *Thanks to all who took time to discuss it while I was
developing it.

--
Roger Long

In order for "the gumk" to grow in your fuel tank their must be water
present, no water, no gunk. This is the main reason it is always
reccomended that you keep your tank full. A full tank will not draw
moist air into the tank through the vent as the fuel expands and
contracts when it warms and cools.If you've got water in the fuel,
your going to have some kind of growth unless you treat your fuel with
an aditive like Biobor. Filtering it, or as some prefer to call it,
polishing it, will remove the growth, but it may not remove the water,
depending on how long your fuel pickup is. Your best bet is to treat
your fuel on a regular basis, keep the tanks full at all times, and
change filters at the first sign of trouble. Polishing is only going
to make the problem go away for some period of time, but it will be
back.

Another point, those 2 micron filters on your Racor, check with your
engine manufacturer, I've never heard of one reccomending more than a
30 micron filter as the promary. Using more restrictive filters can
cause problems with your supply pump, or, even worse, cause the engine
to run lean. That will cause the engine to run hot and, over the long
run, cause all kinds of other problems.