"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I drained my primary Racor filter today and have this to report on one of
the world's smallest on board fuel polishing systems:
snipped boring crap

Fuel polishing??? Whoever coined that stupid, inaccurate phrase?

It's fuel filtering. Why not call a spade a spade? The saddest thing about
it all is how diesel fuel is so unsuited to anything but being burned. It
can't be stored for any decent length of time with out growing all sorts of
crud. Pretty damned stupid for yachts where it's often stored for month upon
months. The only thing more stupid is people who try to make it sound
glamorous by calling it "fuel polishing" and bragging about their systems
that only indicate they hardly ever sail.

Wilbur Hubbard

In article s.com, Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

..... nothing worth quoting.

I don't know how it is, but every-so-often WH seems to say something I
think worthwhile. The last time I had to go to Google groups to find the
rest of what was quoted by someone else, and on the strength of it I
removed him from the KF. Oh, what a bad move that was.

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he
needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd
be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to
grow those organisms.

Justin.

PS. I'm putting him back in the KF, it's really not worth letting him
out.
--
Justin C, by the sea.

"Justin C" wrote in message
...
In article s.com,
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

.... nothing worth quoting.

I don't know how it is, but every-so-often WH seems to say something I
think worthwhile. The last time I had to go to Google groups to find the
rest of what was quoted by someone else, and on the strength of it I
removed him from the KF. Oh, what a bad move that was.

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he
needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere there'd
be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long enough to
grow those organisms.


If he sailed he wouldn't be needing a diesel in the first place. Duh!

If he used his diesel so sparingly as you seem to think he would have no
need of large integrated tankage where the fuel sits and grows crud. A
simple portable six gallon tank would suffice.

Think how it really is absurd to ship 50 or more gallons of diesel "just in
case" and then spend time, money and effort constantly filtering it in order
to keep it usable "just in case." Would it not be ever more so intelligent
to only ship the amount one intends to use plus a small safety factor and
then use it all to avoid all the stupidity of husbanding that which you have
little or no use for?

Look at it this way. If you liked to bake bread aboard would you buy 500
pounds of flour even when you knew you only needed 20 pounds to supply all
your bread needs for the length of your voyage? Would you set up a system so
you could strain the flour through screens each weak to keep the weevils at
bay? No you wouldn't. That would be just plain stupid. Would you brag about
on sailing newsgroups as if it were an intelligent thing to do? I doubt it
because people would quickly point out your folly to you. I am just pointing
out the folly of "fuel polishing" and glamorizing a stupid and unnecessary
activity by calling it something that it isn't.

Sailing is as much about a seamanlike attitude and course of action than it
is about trimming sails. Going on and on about "polishing" fuel as if it
were something to be proud of is indicative of a lubberly attitude combined
with a low IQ.

Wilbur Hubbard

On 2008-11-11 17:13:59 -0500, Justin C said:

PS. I'm putting him back in the KF, it's really not worth letting him
out.

Oh, he's not THAT bad. Quick tip: If it's a long post from him, just
delete it as it's a meaningless rant.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that he
needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks long
enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's affectation
that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible is silly. If
that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in his fantasy life),
fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine cruised and won races for
years in a boat that didn't even have an engine installed. Making a value
judgement about others who cruise differently, however, is just another
personality and perspective defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as
Neal does in his fantasy cruising but, because I have a real and reliable
engine, I ADD to that long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have a
sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions are right
and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost power. When
conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a lot of the time in
this part of the world, I prefer motoring to sitting still or going very
slowly with the kind of concentration it takes to keep a boat moving in
light air. Strider is nearly as good a powerboat as sailboat and I'm just
as content to listen to her excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine
slides by as I am sailing. During sailing season in Maine, we typically
have wind for only half the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't need the
large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the boat ready for
long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points. I'll have to do a lot
more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to conserve fuel but that's
fine because I won't have the time pressure of fitting the cruise in between
fixed shore commitments as I have had to do for the past few years. I want
the flexibility though of being able to operate as a powerboat for
reasonable periods. Since I consider power equally as much a part of my
cruising as sailing, I want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean
fuel, especially in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my
experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about
not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse
outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards,
but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat.
Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery
charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel,
introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are
inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be
unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion
outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 07:56:44 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:10:02 -0600, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Justin C wrote:

Willy, your logic is flawed. It is exactly because Roger sails that
he needs to polish/clean/filter his fuel. If he motored everywhere
there'd be less need because the diesel wouldn't be in his tanks
long enough
to grow those organisms.

It's actually quite a bit more complex than that. First, Neal's
affectation that "real sailors" use their engine as little as possible
is silly. If that's the way he wants to play the game (at least in
his fantasy life), fine. One of the most respected saiors in Maine
cruised and won races for years in a boat that didn't even have an
engine installed. Making a value judgement about others who cruise
differently, however, is just another personality and perspective
defect. I sail as much in my real cruising as Neal does in his fantasy
cruising but, because I have a real and reliable engine, I ADD to that
long periods of powerboat operation.

For sake of argument, sure, I'm not a sailor. I'm a mariner. I have
a sailboat because I prefer sailing to motoring when the conditions
are right and like the freedom, range, and economy of next to no cost
power. When conditions are not right for sailing though, which is a
lot of the time in this part of the world, I prefer motoring to
sitting still or going very slowly with the kind of concentration it
takes to keep a boat moving in light air. Strider is nearly as good a
powerboat as sailboat and I'm just as content to listen to her
excellent diesel run as the coast of Maine slides by as I am sailing.
During sailing season in Maine, we typically have wind for only half
the day so I burn a lot of fuel.

I burn enough fuel and supplies are clean enough here that I don't
need the large capacity and polishing system at all. I'm getting the
boat ready for long cruises to areas with few fuel supply points.
I'll have to do a lot more light air sailing and sitting at anchor to
conserve fuel but that's fine because I won't have the time pressure
of fitting the cruise in between fixed shore commitments as I have had
to do for the past few years. I want the flexibility though of being
able to operate as a powerboat for reasonable periods. Since I
consider power equally as much a part of my cruising as sailing, I
want the engine to be as reliable as the rig. Clean fuel, especially
in remote areas, is the foundation of that.

I'll point out again that this group is rec.boats.CRUISING. It's not a
sailing group and it shouldn't discriminate between sail and power boats.
If you want to be a sailing purist, go have conversations in a purely
sailing newgroup.

If you're a cruiser, many times you'll find that either the wind isn't
blowing or is blowing out of the wrong direction. As I often say, "The
windex points the way" meaning that's the way that you want to go. And
many times you can't sit around waiting for the perfect weather window,
and as a result you have to motor.

There's also a big difference between someone who goes out on the weekend
with the boys, bashing along with the toe rail in the water and a cruiser
who has their household stored below. I hate pulling in and finding the
contents of the cabinets shuffled all around and things in the cabin
tossed around.

Let's not forget that all important marital/relationship bliss factor.
It's very important, especially on a small boat where there's little
personal space, to keep the admiral happy. I know very few women who
like having the toe rail in the water for any extended period of time.
I'd much rather cruise with a wonderful, happy woman who keeps me warm at
night as opposed to cruising solo or with a bunch of smelly guys!

So to emphasize Roger's statement, engines aren't something that most
sailing cruisers want to use on a regular basis, but they're important,
as without them most cruisers wouldn't go very far.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Both Geoff and Roger make excellent points which jibe with my
experience. Of course one of the reasons Wilbur is so fervid about
not using power is because he is/was using something like a 10 horse
outboard for an aux. No offense intended to others using outboards,
but nothing could be more unsuited for aux power on a cruising boat.
Small outboards typically have minimal or no alternator for battery
charging, burn over twice as much fuel as a comparable diesel,
introduce the risks of gasoline storage, have props that are
inefficient for slow speed/heavy load operation, and tend to be
unreliable in long term service under those conditions. In my opinion
outboards are suitable only for day sailors or weekend cruising.


Damned good for dinghys too...
Cheers,

Bruce in bangkok
(bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

wrote in message
...
I have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust 4-stroke outboard that is
specifically designed to propell a sailboat efficiently. It has a
HUGE, slow turning prop. This prop would look more at home on
something north of 60 or 70 HP. I can cruise at hull speed at about
1/4 throttle, and we can carry on a converasaton in the cockpit
without raiseing our voices any louder than when we are at home at the
dinner table.


Did the prop come with the engine or did you change it out when you bought
it?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:11:35 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..

I have a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust 4-stroke outboard that is
specifically designed to propell a sailboat efficiently. It has a
HUGE, slow turning prop. This prop would look more at home on
something north of 60 or 70 HP. I can cruise at hull speed at about
1/4 throttle, and we can carry on a converasaton in the cockpit
without raiseing our voices any louder than when we are at home at the
dinner table.


Did the prop come with the engine or did you change it out when you bought
it?


That's the way it comes. Has different gearing to accomodate the
specialized application. I tell people it's like having my own private
tug boat along everywhere I go. Honda makes a model that tries to
complete with the Yamaha, but it truly does not come close. When I
replaced the Yamaha I did a LOT of research on both brands, before
buying another Yamaha.



I once had a 5 horse British Seagull that I felt the same way about.
Little light weight 2 stroke thing with a huge 5 blades prop.

It would push anything at 5 knots - sail boat or coal barge.
(might take a bit longer to accelerate the coal barge, but it would
get 'er done!)



--

Richard

(remove the X to email)