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headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
RichH brought forth on stone tablets:
This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. You see some setups where the halyard leads at an angle from the foil. This is good for minimizing halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. ........ *******Not talking about lead angles of the top swivel to halyard sheeve.... but the deflection of the torlon bealls under extreme compressive load from extreme halyard tension; hence, the tendency to begin to jam or add a lot of friction. My recent Harken starts to jam when at extreme halyard loads. But then again 'kroozers' have no idea that it takes halyard strain to 'shape' a sail so its probably a non-issue for those who simply 'just raise' a sail. I release the tension on my new sail ********Damn good idea as 'creep' (permanent elastic deformation) is what eventually 'kills' the shape of a sail. I had luff foam put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. I will probably switch to the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. With the third reef I had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly. ******* The newer modern cutting programs (with "S" curve luff hollow profiles) have mostly obsoleted the need for foam luffs ... although on a BIG sail you still sometimes need a wee bit of foam luff to 'help' the partly furled shape - still 30% reduction is about as good as it gets; and, that assumes that one knows how to set the correct backstay/headstay tension to match the actual 'luff hollow' that is cut into the headsail when its fully wind-loaded BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. He takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel. He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer periods. The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business this year. Yup, the higher hose temps are good breeding grounds for those fungals that thrive in #2. Those 'filters' on the delivery hoses do nothing to stop the 'spores' and 'buds' of the fungals/bacteria. The filters there are mostly for 'rocks, sticks and feathers'. If possible, I only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is much much less. :-) It's also almost universally cheaper. Here in Seattle, I am saving more than $1/gallon by jugging it. bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"RichH" wrote
If possible, I only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is much much less. :-) That's what I'm doing. I've got enough on board to motor for 75% of my planned route so I shouldn't need to re-fuel this cruise. -- Roger Long |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.
Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is usually in front of the mast. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-11 13:22:54 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:
In article , Dave wrote: That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in. Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Typically, it improves the boat's balance and unloads the helm somewhat. If a particular boat picks up lee helm, the rules are different of course. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
In article ,
Dave wrote: On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:22:54 -0500, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said: That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in. Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Not really. With an outboard rudder, the boat has a bit of weather helm when seriously heeled. Reefing the main gets it back on its feet with a fairly balanced helm. I've never sailed a boat this size with an outboard rudder. Is that what's doing it (or preventing it)? I would think that most boats when seriously heeled have weather helm. I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced and takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working jib and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm, start to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm intervention (or at least not much.. two finger control). |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
In article ,
RichH wrote: Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is usually in front of the mast. With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm. This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of weather helm vs. lee helm. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
In article 2008081121315716807-jerelull@maccom,
Jere Lull wrote: On 2008-08-11 13:22:54 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said: In article , Dave wrote: That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in. Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Typically, it improves the boat's balance and unloads the helm somewhat. If a particular boat picks up lee helm, the rules are different of course. It sure wouldn't on my boat, especially in 20+ air. I typically sail with a single reef in the main and a full masthead (working) jib (it has a high foot). |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-12 01:14:53 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:
In article , RichH wrote: Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is usually in front of the mast. With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm. This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of weather helm vs. lee helm. As I recall, cutter rigs place the the mast further aft. What's determines "helm" is the balance among the CEs of the sails, keel, and hull. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of weather helm vs. lee helm. On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when heeled etc. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202523416807-jerelull@maccom... On 2008-08-12 01:13:00 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said: I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced and takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working jib and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm, start to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm intervention (or at least not much.. two finger control). Sounds like you had it right. I have to tuck in the second reef and flatten the jib hard in those conditions, as we're a light-air boat with significant weather helm if we heel too much. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ I feel fortunate to own her. I'd like to claim that it's all my doing, but the Sabre is very forgiving. At one point, we had the starboard rail in the water, which is not the way I usually sail, and there was very little weather helm. I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps... http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482 -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202564175249-jerelull@maccom... On 2008-08-12 01:14:53 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said: In article , RichH wrote: Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward. Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is usually in front of the mast. With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm. This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of weather helm vs. lee helm. As I recall, cutter rigs place the the mast further aft. What's determines "helm" is the balance among the CEs of the sails, keel, and hull. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ Yes, I think I recall that also... that would account for a lot of it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"RichH" wrote in message
... With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm. This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of weather helm vs. lee helm. On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when heeled etc. Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?) Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter. Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both). -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On *most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the CLR ..... * But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or all vectors). * All depends on the design and how it performs when heeled etc. Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?) Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter. Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both). Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/ power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the 'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving forward at speed. In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham, etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that
most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up. This is also odd because the technique of lying ahull, according to what you describe about lee helm, would mean that a boat in such a position would be stern to the weather. I don't think that's the case, but I've never lay ahull in a storm. "RichH" wrote in message ... On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when heeled etc. Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?) Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter. Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both). Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/ power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the 'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving forward at speed. In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham, etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:
I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps... http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482 It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:32:55 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up. decrease the mast rake, and you can decrease weather helm. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom... On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said: I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps... http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482 It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather helm. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
wrote in message
... On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:32:55 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up. decrease the mast rake, and you can decrease weather helm. Yes, but I think he was talking about hull shape and bow shape. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:
"Jere Lull" wrote in message news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom... It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry. I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather helm. Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little "helm" until we were well heeled. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:06:04 -0400, in message
"Roger Long" wrote: The thing that got me thinking about the smaller, compromize Genoa I had built was noticing how much faster the boat was to windward with the small working jib in fresh breezes. The performance difference between the 150% and the working jib (about a 110% overlap) even in light air and on reaches was much less than the difference in sail area would indicate. I don't know about anybody else, but my racing bias tends towards too much sail. The last couple of weeks we went cruising with the cocktail jib (about 115% with a really high clew) on the furler. As best I could tell, the speed penalty was 10 or 15 percent and 3 or 5 degrees of point. Based on observing the boats around us, most cruisers don't seem to care about that. The really big plus is that you can carry a sail like that well up to about 25 knots to weather without having to roll it in, and you can do what we call "cruising tacks" -- slow turns with enough time luffing to trim without much power grinding. Ryk |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
Ryk
My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get. Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP. Such is also 'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ... requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. :-) |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT), in message
RichH wrote: Ryk My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get. Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP. The high end race folks go through endless headsail changes to optimize VMG. Rigs have moved towards smaller headsails and bigger mains to make it easier to "change gears", as far as I can tell. Such is also 'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ... requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Easier on the crew as well. My point was that a cruising sail plan can include a small jib with no practical loss of performance unless things go really light. Ryk :-) |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:16:33 GMT, in message
2008080922163375249-jerelull@maccom Jere Lull wrote: On 2008-08-09 09:34:28 -0400, Gogarty said: I also have a Harken. Came with the boat, which is now 27 years old. Works very well most of the time except when the wind gets over 20 and you can't blanket it behind the main. Even a flogging jib at that wind speed is a heavy load. Try working on straightening the lead of the furling line. It's amazing how much drag an extra block or too-wide angle can add. Also take care to control the furling line on the roll-out -- it will feed into the drum much more neatly with a little tension and be much easier to roll up later. Ryk |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom... On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said: "Jere Lull" wrote in message news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom... It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry. I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather helm. Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little "helm" until we were well heeled. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ Sounds like you're well heeled already! (I mean understanding what's what... sorry, stupid pun.) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:09:07 -0400, in message
"Roger Long" wrote: "RichH" wrote If possible, I only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is much much less. :-) That's what I'm doing. I've got enough on board to motor for 75% of my planned route so I shouldn't need to re-fuel this cruise. On a twentyfive litre jug and a twenty cent a litre premium, that's five bucks a jug, or about a buck an hour to run my Atomic 4, making the convenience of a marina fill-up one of the cheapest things I can buy for the boat. As for fuel freshness, our gas dock clears the tanks in about a week. Ryk |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
|
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT, in message
2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom Jere Lull wrote: Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little "helm" until we were well heeled. I think the 28 rudder was the same shape as the original Tanzer 26 rudder, with the same problem. Did you build yours based on the T26 changes, or just common sense? I actually liked the load on the old T26 rudder, as the main sheet in one hand (6:1) and the tiller in the other balanced. Ryk |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-13 13:35:59 -0400, Ryk said:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:16:33 GMT, in message 2008080922163375249-jerelull@maccom Jere Lull wrote: On 2008-08-09 09:34:28 -0400, Gogarty said: I also have a Harken. Came with the boat, which is now 27 years old. Works very well most of the time except when the wind gets over 20 and you can't blanket it behind the main. Even a flogging jib at that wind speed is a heavy load. Try working on straightening the lead of the furling line. It's amazing how much drag an extra block or too-wide angle can add. Also take care to control the furling line on the roll-out -- it will feed into the drum much more neatly with a little tension and be much easier to roll up later. That's a subject I intentionally left out. Since I use a small spare winch as my snubber, it's easy to use it to control furling line line tension. It's so lovely to watch the furling line wind up and down the drum tightly as the sail pulls itself out. Oh, GAWD, what a mess I've seen when the furling line randomly wound up. Couldn't let the sail fully out as the line filled up the available space too quickly. When hauling in, the line slipped under previous wraps, making it impossible to furl the sail again. I doubt anyone will make that particular mistake twice. It can make for an entirely too-busy afternoon. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-13 14:02:21 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:
Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little "helm" until we were well heeled. Jere Lull Sounds like you're well heeled already! (I mean understanding what's what... sorry, stupid pun.) No problem. I was hunting for a different pun, but yours is a good alternative and a nice compliment at the same time ;-) Thanks for that. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On 2008-08-13 15:10:20 -0400, Ryk said:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT, in message 2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom Jere Lull wrote: Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little "helm" until we were well heeled. I think the 28 rudder was the same shape as the original Tanzer 26 rudder, with the same problem. Did you build yours based on the T26 changes, or just common sense? I actually liked the load on the old T26 rudder, as the main sheet in one hand (6:1) and the tiller in the other balanced. Ryk Johanne Tanzer gave all his boats about the same rudder, so the problem was endemic amongst the fleets. When I built our replacement about 15 seasons back, I only had the T22 "new" class rudder and NACA 0012 foil as patterns, so I guess my answer would be "common sense". The 26 rudder came later, as I recall. I didn't move our leading edge forward in the first incarnation, so found a need to re-do the blade to add balance. I screwed up the construction at the time, so had problems with expansion and cracks most years since. Just this spring, I finally got an IdaSailor blade. It's obviously a relative to what I and Rik Hall created years back, closer to mine than Rik's, as it happens, but I believe they built it too deep. I may chop about a half foot off between seasons as we've more than necessary authority. While I could probably comfortably sail Xan with the old rudder for short times in moderate conditions, my wife had difficulty pushing it while we were motoring. It took a LOT of effort to push the tiller over even when we were flat. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote:
.... My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have several extra halliards. ... But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots (twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but they aren't for changing sails when cruising. -- Tom. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:
In article , wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the sheet around it to get a nice tight furl. I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple days ago. Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is something wrong with either your setup or your technique. I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a winch. Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers. I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line. Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book. -- Tom. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
wrote in message
... On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote: In article , wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the sheet around it to get a nice tight furl. I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple days ago. Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is something wrong with either your setup or your technique. I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a winch. Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers. I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line. Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book. -- Tom. I don't know if Schaefer allows it or not, but with the small jib I use, it's never been an issue. The worst case is that the sail gets furled a bit too tight to completely roll up, but that's easily fixed at the next opportunity. I currently have the furling line lead through one of my spin blocks, which I'm not using. It's directly positioned to use winch, so I suppose I have that option. Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
wrote in message ... On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote: ... My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have several extra halliards. ... But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots (twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but they aren't for changing sails when cruising. -- Tom. Yes that is true of course. My boat came from a racing background and has several Mylar foresails, all of which fit the grooves. This is all very well but it needs two peole to handle sail changes as one has to man the halliards while the other feeds the sail into the foil. I sail with just my wife for crew so all those racing sails are in the basement at home and I stick with a 130% dacron genny which is specially designed for the roller. Even though we only cruise I do not like a slow boat and we hold our own pretty well with most boats our own size so I am happy. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:04:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote: In article , wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the sheet around it to get a nice tight furl. I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple days ago. Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is something wrong with either your setup or your technique. I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a winch. Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers. I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line. Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book. Some reason a furler couldn't have a shear pin like an outboard motor? Combine harvesters have a not very strong piece of lumber, about 1x2, in the drive to the harvesting mechanism. Jam it and the board breaks, instead of steel bending. The concept is widely known. Casady |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Aug 20, 2:24 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
.... Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff? Well, yes... We sailed to Napa and fixed stuff and then sailed to Vallejo and fixed stuff and then to Richmond (KKMI) and fixed stuff. We've also sailed around in the bay a little not fixing stuff, but that almost felt like cheating. :) We just got back from KKMI this morning and the jib is still on the forestay but I think we're going to be here at least until Monday so I'll drop it and bag it this afternoon. We'll be fixing stuff while we're here. We're not quite sure when we're going to start heading South but I think that we're a few weeks away yet; there's no chance that we will have fixed all the stuff on the list by then... -- Tom. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:43 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote: ... My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have several extra halliards. ... But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots (twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but they aren't for changing sails when cruising. -- Tom. Yes that is true of course. My boat came from a racing background and has several Mylar foresails, all of which fit the grooves. This is all very well but it needs two peole to handle sail changes as one has to man the halliards while the other feeds the sail into the foil. I sail with just my wife for crew so all those racing sails are in the basement at home and I stick with a 130% dacron genny which is specially designed for the roller. Even though we only cruise I do not like a slow boat and we hold our own pretty well with most boats our own size so I am happy. Is there some reason you don't want to use a pre-feeder? I routinely change sails by myself. I get the sail started in the track, and then the prefeeder takes care of guiding the rest of the sail in while I man the halyard. Rarely, I have to stop at some point because the sail is too twisted on the deck to feed well. Takes but a second to fix that when it happens, and get back in the cockpit. My pre-feeder is homemade out of starboard, and splits in two pieces, held togeter by bolts with wingnuts, in case I ever need to remove it from the bolt rope while somewhere in the middle of it's length. So far, I've never used that option. |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
wrote in message
... On Aug 20, 2:24 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote: ... Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff? Well, yes... We sailed to Napa and fixed stuff and then sailed to Vallejo and fixed stuff and then to Richmond (KKMI) and fixed stuff. We've also sailed around in the bay a little not fixing stuff, but that almost felt like cheating. :) We just got back from KKMI this morning and the jib is still on the forestay but I think we're going to be here at least until Monday so I'll drop it and bag it this afternoon. We'll be fixing stuff while we're here. We're not quite sure when we're going to start heading South but I think that we're a few weeks away yet; there's no chance that we will have fixed all the stuff on the list by then... -- Tom. Seems like everytime I fix something on my list, I add three more items to the list. LOL I've always had a good experience with KKMI. They're good people. Right around the corner from me at Brickyard. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
headsail furlers -the good, the bad and the ugly...sound off!
On Aug 20, 3:56 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
.... Seems like everytime I fix something on my list, I add three more items to the list. LOL By rule, when the list exceeds three pages I throw it out and start a new list. :) I've always had a good experience with KKMI. They're good people. Right around the corner from me at Brickyard. I was impressed with them. Their hourly is brutal but I think they were unusually honest in their billing and they let us stay on their dock two nights and gave us a bottle of wine. Can't argue with that. -- Tom. |
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