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You know? I find this thread very strange as it consists mainly of one individual sailing down east and a multitude of others sitting at home snipping at him. Certainly Skip is a new sailor, but so what? He is still afloat and sailing. In fact it sounds like he is having a ball. I wonder how many of the "Perfect Sailors" who spend their time sniping can truly say that they have made ocean voyages and never made a mistake or done any thing that was stupid in retrospect? Probably none, if they don't lie. I'm not going to preach that everyone should stop sniping but while you are sitting there posting your rants try to remember, Skip is out there sailing and you are sitting at home, so who is the Cruiser and who is the fool? Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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Hear hear.
Their incredible roster of deficiencies is primarily a function of their openess, complete reporting, and the dynamics of this newsgroup. I doubt that many now experienced long distance cruisers did as well on their first long passage. I'm tracking their progress and ETA closely as I plan to go out and meet them. I think they might have finally relented and set the iron genny since they are suddenly on a rumb line for Portland at 5.2 knots and I can't see anything in the buoy reports to account for it. It would be a wise use of diesel fuel since they are predicting rain and low visibility tomorrow. Of course, that could be just about any day in the last 30. I haven't spoken to anyone recently who claims to remember a worse summer in this part of the world. -- Roger Long |
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Their projected course shows good strategy and sense right now. It isn't
straight towards Portland which would put them right in the ship traffic lane and following it during the early morning hours when everyone on the water is least attentive. Instead, they will go just past the beginning of the southern lane and then come up to the Portland approaches about dawn right between the two lanes. It's about the best they do to minimize the chances of a traffic encounter. It looks like Skip is thinking pretty clearly after several days short handed at sea. -- Roger Long |
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On Aug 5, 4:44*pm, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: You know? I find this thread very strange as it consists mainly of one individual sailing down east and a multitude of others sitting at home snipping at him. Bruce-in-Bangkok Hello Bruce: If a guy goes into a crowed dive bar and whips out his winnie, waggles it at everbody and yells........." HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT MY WINNIE! " Ya might expect to get a little feed back. When Skip blabs on with his dear diary logs in a place like this ya might expect his word to be: 1) suported 2) criticized 3) ignored 4) questioned for aditoinal information 5) ______ Bob |
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On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:47:58 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote: On Aug 5, 4:44*pm, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: You know? I find this thread very strange as it consists mainly of one individual sailing down east and a multitude of others sitting at home snipping at him. Bruce-in-Bangkok Hello Bruce: If a guy goes into a crowed dive bar and whips out his winnie, waggles it at everbody and yells........." HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT MY WINNIE! " Ya might expect to get a little feed back. When Skip blabs on with his dear diary logs in a place like this ya might expect his word to be: 1) suported 2) criticized 3) ignored 4) questioned for aditoinal information 5) ______ Bob Actually, I'd give your post a bit more credence if you were posting it through SailMail but you are posting through: Cellco Partnership DBA Verizon Wireless OrgID: CLLC Address: 180 Washington Valley Road City: Bedminster StateProv: NJ PostalCode: 07039 Country: US In other words you are sitting home and writing this while Skip is out on the briny sailing. To quote Teddy Roosevelt: "...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic. The man who actually does the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." Which pretty well expresses it all. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:01:46 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Hear hear. Their incredible roster of deficiencies is primarily a function of their openess, complete reporting, and the dynamics of this newsgroup. I doubt that many now experienced long distance cruisers did as well on their first long passage. I'm tracking their progress and ETA closely as I plan to go out and meet them. I think they might have finally relented and set the iron genny since they are suddenly on a rumb line for Portland at 5.2 knots and I can't see anything in the buoy reports to account for it. It would be a wise use of diesel fuel since they are predicting rain and low visibility tomorrow. Of course, that could be just about any day in the last 30. I haven't spoken to anyone recently who claims to remember a worse summer in this part of the world. There is an old saying, supposedly about sailing on Chesapeake Bay: "There are sailors who have been aground, there are sailors that are going to go aground, and Damned Liars" I suggest that everyone who has done any sailing to amount to anything has made mistakes, and learned from them. People who have never made a mistake are probably lying. Thus, Skip is right there with the rest of us. Except he is out there doing it and the nay sayers are sitting at home. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:01:46 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Their incredible roster of deficiencies is primarily a function of their openess, complete reporting, and the dynamics of this newsgroup. I doubt that many now experienced long distance cruisers did as well on their first long passage. Some truth to that, however I continue to be concerned with the unnecessary risks that have been taken. Given enough chances Murphy and his laws will always catch up with you in some unfortunate way. When you are crossing oceans there is no alternative but to cruise around the clock for many days at a time. Learning to deal with the sleep deprivation and fatigue is part of the game, not so with coastal cruising. Bad judgement can start creeping up on you after an extended time offshore. |
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:07:54 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: Thus, Skip is right there with the rest of us. Except he is out there doing it and the nay sayers are sitting at home. Maybe because they aren't prepared yet. Gotta be ready. Can't have anything go wrong. Must be shipshape. Just not quite ready. Few things to take care of first. Won't be long. Have to be patient. Why take any chances? Could lead to disaster. Or even embarrassment. Must be a good sailor, so want all just right. Anything less would be lubberly. Now, my legs are just right on the ottoman. Gimme another beer. And turn on the light - it's getting dark. No sense I risk tripping on the dog when walking to bed. That could be embarrassing if somebody found out. --Vic |
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"Wayne.B" wrote
Bad judgement can start creeping up on you after an extended time offshore. Seems to hit some of us like a ton of bricks after a few minutes on usenet... |
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On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:26:57 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:07:54 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Thus, Skip is right there with the rest of us. Except he is out there doing it and the nay sayers are sitting at home. Maybe because they aren't prepared yet. Gotta be ready. Can't have anything go wrong. Must be shipshape. Just not quite ready. Few things to take care of first. Won't be long. Have to be patient. Why take any chances? Could lead to disaster. Or even embarrassment. Must be a good sailor, so want all just right. Anything less would be lubberly. Now, my legs are just right on the ottoman. Gimme another beer. And turn on the light - it's getting dark. No sense I risk tripping on the dog when walking to bed. That could be embarrassing if somebody found out. --Vic Yup. to quote Frank Hill, a 78 year old Australian mate of mine, "you can spend your whole damned life getting ready to go. Or you can just GO!" Apparently Skip listened to the latter part of the quote. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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"Wayne.B" wrote
When you are crossing oceans there is no alternative but to cruise around the clock for many days at a time. Learning to deal with the sleep deprivation and fatigue is part of the game, not so with coastal cruising. Bad judgement can start creeping up on you after an extended time offshore. But, the only way to learn to deal with those things is to do them. I urged them to take on some extra hands for the trip and even located some candidates that I knew but the elected to try it alone. This was very much a training cruise for them and not a bad route actually. Far enough out to experience all the conditions of an ocean passage but not so far as to not have options if problems arose. When I was flying, there was a constant tension between being conservative and safe and gaining the experience to be ready for conditions that can come up almost any time. The latter often required going out and doing things I wouldn't want to make a habit of. I think this has been invaluable for them and a lot less risky than things I see people doing all the time within sight of land. The track they are following into the harbor now shows the judgement I would expect of a very seasoned navigator even after a long shorthanded trip. I'll be headed out to meet them in a couple hours. -- Roger Long |
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How far did you sail in the last 10 days?
-- Roger Long |
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:16:28 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 07:07:32 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: How far did you sail in the last 10 days? A false and foolish yardstick, Roger. Do you work part time as an advisor to Carl Rove? No it isn't! You will probably find that Roger has not been out for 9 days. |
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"Roger Long" wrote in message ... "Wayne.B" wrote When you are crossing oceans there is no alternative but to cruise around the clock for many days at a time. Learning to deal with the sleep deprivation and fatigue is part of the game, not so with coastal cruising. Bad judgement can start creeping up on you after an extended time offshore. But, the only way to learn to deal with those things is to do them. I urged them to take on some extra hands for the trip and even located some candidates that I knew but the elected to try it alone. This was very much a training cruise for them and not a bad route actually. Far enough out to experience all the conditions of an ocean passage but not so far as to not have options if problems arose. When I was flying, there was a constant tension between being conservative and safe and gaining the experience to be ready for conditions that can come up almost any time. The latter often required going out and doing things I wouldn't want to make a habit of. I think this has been invaluable for them and a lot less risky than things I see people doing all the time within sight of land. The track they are following into the harbor now shows the judgement I would expect of a very seasoned navigator even after a long shorthanded trip. I'll be headed out to meet them in a couple hours. -- Roger Long ================================= Yo Captain Roger .. is the good ship Skip/Lydia coming in today Aug . 6, 2008? I'm bummed... if it were tomorrow I could go out with you and meet the old sea dog. I have my fancy, got it at a yard sale, flies behind the Big A kite.. and my just purchased at another yard sale cheap flag ... .. and who knows what else.. If Skip gets delayed... I'm heading out tomorrow anyway .. so I will do the welcome to S Portland, here is your rain suit thing.. As for all the talk of arm chair sailors... I have been sailing all summer in the Casco/to Boothbay/NH region .. and the weather has SUCKED... So, the sailing has not been the best.. but I am out there, by myself .. with my Annapolis Book of Sailing in one hand and the sheet in the other ..... Put the rail under the other day,, albeit for only a moment,, but the rail set right at the water line for a long reach from Sequin to R N 2Q Bell ... Close hauled.. rail down... all the way.... by myself YES Maybe Skip and Captain Lydia will be delayed... the weather is awful.. Tell them to wait until tomorrow.. then we can go out and give them a real welcome.. Maybe pass the word to the Centerboard/PYC/DeMillo's/ .. this could be the big event of the summer. I will even play my yard sale trumpet.. I am good at Anchor's Away. hahahah |
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"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... snipped Live and learn, I thought. And, that is exactly what he has done. I'm sure that his vision of a dream boat has changed a bit from what it was several years ago, but so has mine, and probably everyone else that ever owned a boat, wife, car, house, or dog. But, Skip is out there living his dream and the rest of the group seems to be sitting on their collective ass' and rambling on about how he "should be doing it" forgetting that he IS doing it. more snippage I agree with nearly all your post, Bruce, but I suggest you never let your wife see that bit about _owning- a wife. I would never dare.... |
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:50:24 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . snipped Live and learn, I thought. And, that is exactly what he has done. I'm sure that his vision of a dream boat has changed a bit from what it was several years ago, but so has mine, and probably everyone else that ever owned a boat, wife, car, house, or dog. But, Skip is out there living his dream and the rest of the group seems to be sitting on their collective ass' and rambling on about how he "should be doing it" forgetting that he IS doing it. more snippage I agree with nearly all your post, Bruce, but I suggest you never let your wife see that bit about _owning- a wife. I would never dare.... One usually mentions little vignettes like this in the heat of a marital debate on who takes the garbage out, or other important subject. Whereupon one is reminded of the statement in any future conflict until the end of time. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:50:24 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message . .. snipped Live and learn, I thought. And, that is exactly what he has done. I'm sure that his vision of a dream boat has changed a bit from what it was several years ago, but so has mine, and probably everyone else that ever owned a boat, wife, car, house, or dog. But, Skip is out there living his dream and the rest of the group seems to be sitting on their collective ass' and rambling on about how he "should be doing it" forgetting that he IS doing it. more snippage I agree with nearly all your post, Bruce, but I suggest you never let your wife see that bit about _owning- a wife. I would never dare.... One usually mentions little vignettes like this in the heat of a marital debate on who takes the garbage out, or other important subject. Whereupon one is reminded of the statement in any future conflict until the end of time. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) It's like when one dated one's future wife... you chase her until she catches you. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:42:14 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: One usually mentions little vignettes like this in the heat of a marital debate on who takes the garbage out, or other important subject. Whereupon one is reminded of the statement in any future conflict until the end of time. That is what contained me when tempers flared. After learning how it works, of course. "If I say this, will I hear about it until I'm dead?" After a bit of practice, you don't even think it. --Vic |
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wrote
How far did you sail in the last 10 days? Oops. I see I left out the "non-stop" which makes it a bit more of a yardstick. -- Roger Long |
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:08:12 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: wrote How far did you sail in the last 10 days? Oops. I see I left out the "non-stop" which makes it a bit more of a yardstick. It would still be silly and meaningless in the context of the thread. What does what I did in the past 10 days have to do with anything? |
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Did anyone else not get my point?
-- Roger Long |
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:46:01 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Did anyone else not get my point? Sure, and weren't they a couple hundred miles offshore most of the voyage? Quite a trip, really. How many miles is that? --Vic |
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About 1000 miles in 8-9 days.
-- Roger Long |
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It's called "Life", dog.
As is "Having One". Very odd assessment, unless you have a condition similar to Skip's. I - actually we - are looking forward to it. Have you ever thought about what you would do when off watch and not sleeping? Skip writes. -- Richard (remove the X to email) |
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:04:06 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:42:14 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: One usually mentions little vignettes like this in the heat of a marital debate on who takes the garbage out, or other important subject. Whereupon one is reminded of the statement in any future conflict until the end of time. That is what contained me when tempers flared. After learning how it works, of course. "If I say this, will I hear about it until I'm dead?" After a bit of practice, you don't even think it. --Vic I suspect it is one of the rites of passage in growing up. Learning what is safe to say to the woman in your life. "Do these pants make my butt look fat?' "Uh, did you see that Robin on that guy's lawn?" Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
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On Aug 6, 12:08*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
wrote How far did you sail in the last 10 days? Oops. *I see I left out the "non-stop" which makes it a bit more of a yardstick. Sucks, I'm a big fan of Skip & co. but I think your challenge is purely bogus. I don't want to take anything away from Skip at all. He has lots to say, I enjoy reading his stuff and it's clear to me that he's having a good time. What more could a reader of rbc want? But, what's so special about passages made in the last 10 days? Does that mean I don't get cred for making an offshore passage over more than twice as many miles this season? None for passages of seasons past? And whats so special about passage making? It has its joys but to me the real cruising starts when you've finished the passage and gotten someplace new and exciting. Discussions around here would be pretty thin if corespondents had to complete some arbitrarily long passage before they could post. -- Tom. |
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wrote
"Sucks" which I am sure from the context was meant to be "Sure". Sure, the "10 days" was poor writing and distracting to the point I was trying to make but, how much time do you think I spent dashing these posts off? It was a purely retorical comment and a bit wide of the mark I was trying to make. There are two ways to respond the abundance of information S&L provide about their cruises and mistakes. One is specific discussions of strategy, what to do, what not to do, etc. that these accounts bring up. The other, which is much more prominent here, is the "S&L are dangerous idiots who have no business sailing." The fact that the latter generally comes from posters who clearly are not cruising at all or are just puttering about locally in trailer sailer class boats I find annoying. S&L are on a learning curve and will be for the rest of their cruising days. I made mistakes on my last cruise, the one before that, the one before that, and .... I'll make mistakes on my next cruise. I've watched an Unlimited Master of everything, no licenses left to sit for, nearly put his ship aground (I was on it). Every experienced cruiser sailing once made a passage with no prior passage making experience in command and every time you cast off the lines there is the opportunity to learn something. I'm not trying to make a point or judgement here about S&L actually but about the nature of discussion which would be more useful and interesting to read. -- Roger Long |
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:49:00 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: wrote "Sucks" which I am sure from the context was meant to be "Sure". Sure, the "10 days" was poor writing and distracting to the point I was trying to make but, how much time do you think I spent dashing these posts off? It was a purely retorical comment and a bit wide of the mark I was trying to make. There are two ways to respond the abundance of information S&L provide about their cruises and mistakes. One is specific discussions of strategy, what to do, what not to do, etc. that these accounts bring up. The other, which is much more prominent here, is the "S&L are dangerous idiots who have no business sailing." The fact that the latter generally comes from posters who clearly are not cruising at all or are just puttering about locally in trailer sailer class boats I find annoying. S&L are on a learning curve and will be for the rest of their cruising days. I made mistakes on my last cruise, the one before that, the one before that, and .... I'll make mistakes on my next cruise. I've watched an Unlimited Master of everything, no licenses left to sit for, nearly put his ship aground (I was on it). Every experienced cruiser sailing once made a passage with no prior passage making experience in command and every time you cast off the lines there is the opportunity to learn something. I'm not trying to make a point or judgement here about S&L actually but about the nature of discussion which would be more useful and interesting to read. But here's the issue, Roger. We all make mistakes. However Skip, like yourself, has an ego that won't let him benefit from his experiences, or those of others. He revels in his ineptness, and rationalizes his blunders, rather than being humbled by them. That may be why you feel such empathy for him, and are so dismissive of criticisms and the hard won experience of others. The rest of us, understand that everyone makes mistakes, but Skip needs to change his over-riding attitude about them if he wants to be a better sailor. So far, he's been a kid, who when told not to stick a knife in the toaster, grabs a fork, instead. You can follow a kid around and tell him no at every turn, or you can try and teach him to do a better job at deciding what is a good idea and what is a bad idea. I criticize Skip in the hope that at some point the light will go on over his head, and he will realize that thinking ahead, and using better judgement may lead to fewer problems, and help mitigate problems that do happen anyway. Nobody can anticipate everything that may happen, but it's a good idea to do it as much as possible. Skip does too many things that show a complete lack of foresight or caring. Sailing is somewhat akin to chess. You succeed by anticipation of all the possible places you may be several moves from now. |
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wrote
However Skip, like yourself, has an ego that won't let him benefit from his experiences, or those of others. Now, how could you possibly know that? Especially in the case of myself who has posted far less of my experiences here. That's where your otherwise excellent observation that everyone makes mistakes (although it usually *sounds* as if you and others don't) goes off the track. Why, just the other day I learned that, if you are in very familiar waters where navigation doesn't seem like a real issue, you can look down at your GPS, see the asterisks you expect to be there, and turn left. Oops. The GPS was zoomed way too far in and there was still one asterisk off the screen. Bump. You really think I didn't learn something from that? During my years of observing aviation human factors (where they are far more critical), I noticed that such assumptions about others are generally accompanied by dangerous arrogance about ones self. I don't know that that is true about you individually but it is statistically probable. Why don't you focus on specifics that would be useful and instructive discussion instead of jumping to general value judgements about others that just appear self-serving. -- Roger Long |
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:04:25 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: wrote However Skip, like yourself, has an ego that won't let him benefit from his experiences, or those of others. Now, how could you possibly know that? Based entirely on the aggregate of his postings... And your own. This is Usenet, Roger. I don't know your innermost feelings or demons. All I know is what you post. That's what I draw from. If you have more information about why you do the things you do, and the way you do them, that you would like me to take into consideration when forming my opinions, please post it. Same for Skip. You post some bizarre assumptions about me, that don't even correlate to anything I post. |
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On Aug 7, 2:49*am, "Roger Long" wrote:
I'm not trying to make a point or judgement here about S&L actually but about the nature of discussion which would be more useful and interesting to read. Roger Long Roger here ya go again trying to make this place in your immage....... Give it up. I like it just the way it is so who will prevail? Bob |
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On Aug 7, 5:04*am, "Roger Long" wrote:
wrote However Skip, like yourself, has an ego that won't let him benefit from his experiences, or those of others. Now, how could you possibly know that? *Especially in the case of myself who has posted far less of my experiences here. Roger Long My dear roger, A writers words are extreamly revealing. To get a flavor of what is possible I recomend starting with one of the most basic concepts availible: Binjamin Worf and Ed Sapair's theory of linguistic relitivity. An anthropologist and linguist teamed up in the 1930s to study the Hopi indians. One descovery was: Language Reflects Culture Language Affects Culture In other words we all live in a language that forms our view of the world at a very fundamental level. The traditial textbook example is the number of single words used by "Eskimo"to describe snow. Well over 113 singel words are used to describe snow while we are hard pressed to list a ten. Assumption.... snow is a pretty important thing to Northern lat natives and less to us. So we can say that language is a window alowing us to understand a culture. Next the flip side is also true. That is, if we are raised in a language it will structure how we see/view the world. A simple example of this is spanish compared to english. they have gendered words La Messa El Torro, El Libro while we have few. Assumption....... for the child raised in a heavily gendered language they will grow up seeing the world (people) as genders who must comply to gender roles very closly.... can you say MACHO. The interesting thing assumtion with all this if we change the language can we change a culture???????????? Hummm, FIRE MAN = FIRE FIGHTER POLICE MAN = POLICE OFFICER FISHER MAN = ANGLER Ya ever wonder why the us gov changed job titles????????? Just think Worf - Sapier :) NOw, what the **** does that have to do with us here? Everything. every word you chose, and how you nit it together screams who you are and what you belive. A simple count of referencing to authorties and accomplishments or the simple number of times you make a reference to your self... You have to remember that that the Worf Sapier Hypothysis was develdoped in the 1930s a robust field of Rhetorial Anlysis tools have develped since. Be careful................. be very carful.......... That will be $200 please. Bob |
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On 7 Aug 2008 09:58:03 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT), Bob said: The interesting thing assumtion with all this if we change the language can we change a culture "Interesting thing assumtion?" Is that Eskimo? Are you re-reading Cheaper By The Dozen, Dave? |
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On 7 Aug 2008 10:40:02 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:14:33 -0400, said: "Interesting thing assumtion?" Is that Eskimo? Are you re-reading Cheaper By The Dozen, Dave? Never read it in the first place, so I'm missing your allusion. The main character used to say something was "Eskimo" if it wasn't quite kosher. |
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On Aug 7, 3:49*am, "Roger Long" wrote:
wrote "Sucks" ... I meant to type "shucks". One reason I don't type long posts like S&L is that I'm illiterate. Probably the same reason that the point of your initial post flew over my head. Actually, I'm still struggling a bit with your argument. I don't see how it follows that now that S&L have managed to get from one place to another and that they are still on a "learning curve" that they should be immune from negative feedback on their posts. I don't even see why they should be immune from folks who only cruise around in their home waters. I don't need Joyce to tell me I can't write. Anybody who can read is qualified to make that observation. To be sure, Skip's sailing skills are superior to my writing skills, but I still think that when he posts here and folks say (with more or less tact) "don't quit your day job" that they have every right to do so no matter how they sail. Their criticism is valid or not based on the facts (some of which only Skip is privy to) not on some arbitrary rite of passage. -- Tom. |
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