wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 2:55 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"John H." wrote in message

news


On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:09:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:36:33 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Anybody using these?
Anybody care to laugh at the very idea of them?

http://www.fendergrip.com/fg.html

--Vic

I don't like being laughed at. Clove hitches rule.

I don't typically use clove hitches for fender lines. Any up/down
motion
with a fender against a dock will loosen them. A cow hitch might be
better,
but it could still come undone fairly easily, as KLC says (and the 1/2
hitch
would add security). Why not use just an RT with two half-hitches? More
secure, tightens under load?

Add a half hitch or two.

Yep... of course then I'm not sure the point of the clove hitch part. A
round turn is easier to untie in a hurry (though barely).

--
"j" ganz

Loop over the lifeline or rail then tie a prusik back onto the line.
Cost: nearly zero.


I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or rails.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article tions, Capt. JG wrote:
I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or rails.

Not owning a boat, and all those I've sailed with having all tied
fenders to life-lines, I have to ask: to where should one tie a fender
if not the life-lines?

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

"Justin C" wrote in message
...
In article tions,
Capt. JG wrote:
I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or
rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or
rails.

Not owning a boat, and all those I've sailed with having all tied
fenders to life-lines, I have to ask: to where should one tie a fender
if not the life-lines?

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.


Toe rails, cleats amidships. Unless you have break-away fasteners on the
bitter end of the fender line.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote

Lifelines are intended for rather severe loads, such as a 200 pound crew
being
thrown against it. If your (editorial "your") lifelines can't be trusted
to
support a few 5-10 pound fenders, it's time for some serious upgrades.


That doesn't sound like a statement from someone whose been around much,
although I know you have.

One of the jackasses roars through the no wake zone, the boat rolls down and
hooks the fender under either the guard or the protruding edge of the dock
planking and then rolls up as it's pushed against the dock. Strain is now
the lesser of:

The breaking strength of the fender line.

The righting moment of the boat with some inertia factor thrown in.

The force necessary to shread or collapse the fender and pull it out.

Either of these is likely to be well in excess of the strain you would like
to routinely put on a safety item your life might depend on some day. I've
seen it happen.

Just because lifelines don't fail when subjected to common abuse doesn't
mean bedding and laminates are not being compromised at the bases in ways
that could weaken them down the road. Stanchions are a difficult
engineering problem on all except metal boats where they are welded to the
structure. Treat them with the respect you would any important safety
equipment.

--
Roger Long

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:28:01 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

wrote

Lifelines are intended for rather severe loads, such as a 200 pound crew
being
thrown against it. If your (editorial "your") lifelines can't be trusted
to
support a few 5-10 pound fenders, it's time for some serious upgrades.


That doesn't sound like a statement from someone whose been around much,
although I know you have.

One of the jackasses roars through the no wake zone, the boat rolls down
and
hooks the fender under either the guard or the protruding edge of the dock
planking and then rolls up as it's pushed against the dock. Strain is now
the lesser of:

The breaking strength of the fender line.

The righting moment of the boat with some inertia factor thrown in.

The force necessary to shread or collapse the fender and pull it out.

Either of these is likely to be well in excess of the strain you would
like
to routinely put on a safety item your life might depend on some day.
I've
seen it happen.

Just because lifelines don't fail when subjected to common abuse doesn't
mean bedding and laminates are not being compromised at the bases in ways
that could weaken them down the road. Stanchions are a difficult
engineering problem on all except metal boats where they are welded to the
structure. Treat them with the respect you would any important safety
equipment.

The strongest direction for life lines is downward force, which is
what happens of a fender gets caught under a dock. The weakest is the
sideways force of someone being thrown against them. They are also
somewhat sacrificial in nature. In a contest between my fenders and
the righting moment forces of the boat, I'm pretty confident that the
fender whips would part long before the lifelines got anywhere near
the failure point. For that matter, the finger of my floating dock
could probably be lifted until either the fender whip failed or the
fender came free, without breaking the lifelines.

Where do you get this? A fender, caught under a dock will tear the lifeline
right off the boat. In fact, it'll collapse the entire side. I've seen this
happen. Why would you want to sacrifice $100s worth of lifeline instead of
tying the fender line to a proper spot... In addition, the daily stress of
the lifelines being moved back and forth with the fender that is rubbing
will degrade the lines and the "whip" will certainly fail sooner rather than
later.

For that matter, a couple of weeks ago, my wife lost her grip on a
fender (clipped to the lifeline) as she was putting it over the side.
The plastic clip holding the fender gave it's life and we had to go
back and retrieve the fender. I don't think the lifeline even noticed.

http://www.iboats.com/Fender_Tender_II/dm/cart_id.069729997--category_id.238302--list_time.1217250756--session_id.974456088--view_id.38397

Once time does not make for constant stress...


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote

My example of the fender my wife dropped is to demonstrate that it really
doesn't take much trauma to separate a fender from the boat with even
modest force.

Well, it should take a lot of force to separate your fenders from the boat
and they should be secured to proper solid attachement points. After all,
they are protecting iyour boat while is sitting there unattended.

I've moved my home dock fenders to the dock, hanging horizontal just under
the dock bumper. This provides two redundant attachements for each one and
I can flip them up on the dock so they don't interfere with docking and
undocking. Having them entirely under the rubber bumper keeps them from
being displaced up onto the dock and they keep the hull off the harder dock
edge guard.

Did you really say "stanchions are somewhat sacraficial"? I'll reserve
comment until confirmation that you really meant that.

--
Roger Long

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:21:13 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 2:55 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"John H." wrote in message

news


On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:09:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:36:33 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Anybody using these?
Anybody care to laugh at the very idea of them?

http://www.fendergrip.com/fg.html

--Vic

I don't like being laughed at. Clove hitches rule.

I don't typically use clove hitches for fender lines. Any up/down
motion
with a fender against a dock will loosen them. A cow hitch might be
better,
but it could still come undone fairly easily, as KLC says (and the
1/2
hitch
would add security). Why not use just an RT with two half-hitches?
More
secure, tightens under load?

Add a half hitch or two.

Yep... of course then I'm not sure the point of the clove hitch part. A
round turn is easier to untie in a hurry (though barely).

--
"j" ganz

Loop over the lifeline or rail then tie a prusik back onto the line.
Cost: nearly zero.


I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or rails.

Lifelines are intended for rather severe loads, such as a 200 pound crew
being
thrown against it. If your (editorial "your") lifelines can't be trusted
to
support a few 5-10 pound fenders, it's time for some serious upgrades.

I guess you've never had a fender get caught slightly under the dock next to
the boat. It's going to be way more than 200 lbs worth of pull when the boat
moves and the fenders can't.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:00:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:21:13 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 2:55 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"John H." wrote in message

news


On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:09:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:36:33 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Anybody using these?
Anybody care to laugh at the very idea of them?

http://www.fendergrip.com/fg.html

--Vic

I don't like being laughed at. Clove hitches rule.

I don't typically use clove hitches for fender lines. Any up/down
motion
with a fender against a dock will loosen them. A cow hitch might be
better,
but it could still come undone fairly easily, as KLC says (and the
1/2
hitch
would add security). Why not use just an RT with two half-hitches?
More
secure, tightens under load?

Add a half hitch or two.

Yep... of course then I'm not sure the point of the clove hitch part.
A
round turn is easier to untie in a hurry (though barely).

--
"j" ganz

Loop over the lifeline or rail then tie a prusik back onto the line.
Cost: nearly zero.


I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or
rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or
rails.

Lifelines are intended for rather severe loads, such as a 200 pound crew
being
thrown against it. If your (editorial "your") lifelines can't be trusted
to
support a few 5-10 pound fenders, it's time for some serious upgrades.

I guess you've never had a fender get caught slightly under the dock next
to
the boat. It's going to be way more than 200 lbs worth of pull when the
boat
moves and the fenders can't.

A 200 pound person being thrown against the lifelines exerts a heck of
a lot more than 200 pounds of force, and in the direction where the
stanchions are weakest. I have had fenders get caught, and there are
several things that will surrender before the lifelines when it
happens.




Perhaps, but you were talking about the whips breaking. Stanchions are not
going to compress into the deck, but they may get pulled to one side
including fore/aft if a lifeline is depressed even by a 200 lb person.
Perhaps it's not going to be an issue if one is smart enough to have
sacrificial plastic on the end of the fender line, but a lot of people just
do a clove or round turn around the lifeline. Thus, no plastic to break,
just severely depressing the lifeline, bending the stanchion, etc.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:26:56 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:00:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:21:13 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Jul 27, 2:55 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"John H." wrote in message

news


On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:09:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

"John H." wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:36:33 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Anybody using these?
Anybody care to laugh at the very idea of them?

http://www.fendergrip.com/fg.html

--Vic

I don't like being laughed at. Clove hitches rule.

I don't typically use clove hitches for fender lines. Any up/down
motion
with a fender against a dock will loosen them. A cow hitch might
be
better,
but it could still come undone fairly easily, as KLC says (and
the
1/2
hitch
would add security). Why not use just an RT with two
half-hitches?
More
secure, tightens under load?

Add a half hitch or two.

Yep... of course then I'm not sure the point of the clove hitch
part.
A
round turn is easier to untie in a hurry (though barely).

--
"j" ganz

Loop over the lifeline or rail then tie a prusik back onto the line.
Cost: nearly zero.


I think it's a very bad idea to put a fender line over a lifeline or
rail.
Neither is designed for the potential loads. Cost: new lifelines or
rails.

Lifelines are intended for rather severe loads, such as a 200 pound
crew
being
thrown against it. If your (editorial "your") lifelines can't be
trusted
to
support a few 5-10 pound fenders, it's time for some serious upgrades.

I guess you've never had a fender get caught slightly under the dock
next
to
the boat. It's going to be way more than 200 lbs worth of pull when the
boat
moves and the fenders can't.

A 200 pound person being thrown against the lifelines exerts a heck of
a lot more than 200 pounds of force, and in the direction where the
stanchions are weakest. I have had fenders get caught, and there are
several things that will surrender before the lifelines when it
happens.




Perhaps, but you were talking about the whips breaking. Stanchions are not
going to compress into the deck, but they may get pulled to one side
including fore/aft if a lifeline is depressed even by a 200 lb person.
Perhaps it's not going to be an issue if one is smart enough to have
sacrificial plastic on the end of the fender line, but a lot of people
just
do a clove or round turn around the lifeline. Thus, no plastic to break,
just severely depressing the lifeline, bending the stanchion, etc.

Then I guess it boils down to the fact that it's perfectly fine to
hang your fenders from the lifelines, as long as you do it correctly.
:')


Heh... well, you got me there..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com