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Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
With all the armchair sailors here criticizing people who are actually out
sailing around in their boats, I think I'll take time for an account of a sailor who is, or was, a real hazard to himself. I'm also doing some soul searching about it. I sailed my son around the Cape on Wednesday to drop him off for a hike back through the towns' greenbelt trails. As we were leaving, we passed a fairly competent looking double ender that was remarkable for jogging along under only a half luffing staysail. I figured he was just getting started and organized. The boat appeared well equipped and there was just one person on deck. On my return, I saw the boat again, still jogging along at about 1 knot under just the staysail which appeared to be sheeted way too far aft so that the foot was tight and the top half flogging. The boat had just crossed a long dangerous ledge without running aground. It's a short cut I often take but I know the waters and I don't do it when there is a sea running like there was on Wednesday. I thought briefly of going over to take a look but he was past the danger and the occasional large seas breaking nearby certainly would have clued him into not returning that way. It was one of those days that looks nasty but generally doesn't have much wind. I decided he was just taking it easy and enjoying the view. You could spend all afternoon sitting on a porch watching the ocean so why not just jog along the coast at 1 knot if you felt lazy? I also wanted to be home when my son returned and had another home alone. This morning, I read in the paper that a disoriented sailor was brought in by the Coast Guard about 25 miles south the next day. I did some checking and it was the same boat with the sole POB suffering the effects of diabetes. He's home now and the boat is safe. He had been out in the heavy rain and weather that brought a rare tornado watch to Maine. I'm kicking myself now because, thinking back on how the boat was being sailed, I'm sure he was impaired at the time I saw him and I probably could have detected it if I'd gone over to check him out or tried to raise him on the radio. It never occurred to me though that he might actually be trying to go somewhere instead of just being out for a slow daysail. If he had come to grief, I would be pretty torn up about it today. OTOH how often is there any upside to hailing someone by voice or radio and pointing out that they are sailing like a bozo and are they all right? I learned later that he was swearing on the radio at some charter fishing boats that inquired about him and that this behavior played a part in instigating the SAR which involved both boats and aircraft. Next time I see something like this, I'm sure I'll take a closer look but I'm still not sure of the best way to handle it. It's a miracle that he made it past the ledges off the cape and as far as he did. -- Roger Long |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
wrote in message
... On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:35:49 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: With all the armchair sailors here criticizing people who are actually out sailing around in their boats, I think I'll take time for an account of a sailor who is, or was, a real hazard to himself. I'm also doing some soul searching about it. I sailed my son around the Cape on Wednesday to drop him off for a hike back through the towns' greenbelt trails. As we were leaving, we passed a fairly competent looking double ender that was remarkable for jogging along under only a half luffing staysail. I figured he was just getting started and organized. The boat appeared well equipped and there was just one person on deck. On my return, I saw the boat again, still jogging along at about 1 knot under just the staysail which appeared to be sheeted way too far aft so that the foot was tight and the top half flogging. The boat had just crossed a long dangerous ledge without running aground. It's a short cut I often take but I know the waters and I don't do it when there is a sea running like there was on Wednesday. I thought briefly of going over to take a look but he was past the danger and the occasional large seas breaking nearby certainly would have clued him into not returning that way. It was one of those days that looks nasty but generally doesn't have much wind. I decided he was just taking it easy and enjoying the view. You could spend all afternoon sitting on a porch watching the ocean so why not just jog along the coast at 1 knot if you felt lazy? I also wanted to be home when my son returned and had another home alone. This morning, I read in the paper that a disoriented sailor was brought in by the Coast Guard about 25 miles south the next day. I did some checking and it was the same boat with the sole POB suffering the effects of diabetes. He's home now and the boat is safe. He had been out in the heavy rain and weather that brought a rare tornado watch to Maine. I'm kicking myself now because, thinking back on how the boat was being sailed, I'm sure he was impaired at the time I saw him and I probably could have detected it if I'd gone over to check him out or tried to raise him on the radio. It never occurred to me though that he might actually be trying to go somewhere instead of just being out for a slow daysail. If he had come to grief, I would be pretty torn up about it today. OTOH how often is there any upside to hailing someone by voice or radio and pointing out that they are sailing like a bozo and are they all right? I learned later that he was swearing on the radio at some charter fishing boats that inquired about him and that this behavior played a part in instigating the SAR which involved both boats and aircraft. Next time I see something like this, I'm sure I'll take a closer look but I'm still not sure of the best way to handle it. It's a miracle that he made it past the ledges off the cape and as far as he did. Thankfully, the Charter Fishing boat realized that the response itself indicated something was not right and they followed through by notifying the proper authorities. That was a proper way to handle it. I've occasionally seen a boat that appears to be somewhat uncontrolled. Things such as a Genoa flogging badly for more than a short interval with no apparent effort to trim it. I usually just keep an eye on them, and if things still look amiss 10 minutes later, I go closer and observe whatever activity I can. A few times that has prompted me to go even closer and hail them. I don't tell them they are sailing like a Bozo. I just ask if they need any assistance. Most will automaticaly say they are okay, but you can usually tell if they really are by the tone of the response. I once spent an afternoon coaching a couple who were sailing their Catalina 27 for the first time. It was on a gusty spring day with a bit of chop. They were having a lot of trouble because all previous sailing experience had consisted of sailing on a rented Sunfish while on vacation somewhere. They had motored out of the harbor and then shut off the motor to raise the sails. Now they had fouled that up pretty well, and wern't sure even how to undo what they had done and restart the motor to chug home. Things jammed and tangled all over the place. Half the problem was caused by panic. I was tempted to just tow them in, but instead, calmed them down and got them more or less straightened out. I still see them occasionally, and they have improved considerably. If they had rebuffed my help after the second offer, I would have backed off, and just called it in to the CG. I was pretty sure they were not going to get themselves out of trouble and home safely without somebody getting involved. I had a couple of similar situations on the bay out here... one was a Mac26 (no bashing intended), that seemed to be unable to sail in fairly heavy weather. I got within shouting distance and offered to standby while they moved to a bit more sheltered area. They got there, then reefed, which is what they were trying to do in the higher wind. Finally saw them back on the dock, and I gave the skipper a quick lesson in tying a cleat hitch. Another was in the same basic area, but this time was a guy with his young daughter. They were on some tiny something or other, and they seemed to be unable to keep the boat up long enough to get going. This was right in the middle of a fairly high traffic area. We asked if they needed help, and he said no, but we stood upwind of them anyway. I think we gave them enough of a wind block, since they were able to get it going on the next try. She looked fine, but he was starting to get that pre-exhausted look. They immediately headed into a more protected area. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
If you have doubts, then check it out. Nature is not kind and if you tend to feel responsible for another man's actions then by all means. Would you check out the obvious in this video if that person was alone far offshore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNx2N0E8zw "Roger Long" wrote in message ... With all the armchair sailors here criticizing people who are actually out sailing around in their boats, I think I'll take time for an account of a sailor who is, or was, a real hazard to himself. I'm also doing some soul searching about it. I sailed my son around the Cape on Wednesday to drop him off for a hike back through the towns' greenbelt trails. As we were leaving, we passed a fairly competent looking double ender that was remarkable for jogging along under only a half luffing staysail. I figured he was just getting started and organized. The boat appeared well equipped and there was just one person on deck. On my return, I saw the boat again, still jogging along at about 1 knot under just the staysail which appeared to be sheeted way too far aft so that the foot was tight and the top half flogging. The boat had just crossed a long dangerous ledge without running aground. It's a short cut I often take but I know the waters and I don't do it when there is a sea running like there was on Wednesday. I thought briefly of going over to take a look but he was past the danger and the occasional large seas breaking nearby certainly would have clued him into not returning that way. It was one of those days that looks nasty but generally doesn't have much wind. I decided he was just taking it easy and enjoying the view. You could spend all afternoon sitting on a porch watching the ocean so why not just jog along the coast at 1 knot if you felt lazy? I also wanted to be home when my son returned and had another home alone. This morning, I read in the paper that a disoriented sailor was brought in by the Coast Guard about 25 miles south the next day. I did some checking and it was the same boat with the sole POB suffering the effects of diabetes. He's home now and the boat is safe. He had been out in the heavy rain and weather that brought a rare tornado watch to Maine. I'm kicking myself now because, thinking back on how the boat was being sailed, I'm sure he was impaired at the time I saw him and I probably could have detected it if I'd gone over to check him out or tried to raise him on the radio. It never occurred to me though that he might actually be trying to go somewhere instead of just being out for a slow daysail. If he had come to grief, I would be pretty torn up about it today. OTOH how often is there any upside to hailing someone by voice or radio and pointing out that they are sailing like a bozo and are they all right? I learned later that he was swearing on the radio at some charter fishing boats that inquired about him and that this behavior played a part in instigating the SAR which involved both boats and aircraft. Next time I see something like this, I'm sure I'll take a closer look but I'm still not sure of the best way to handle it. It's a miracle that he made it past the ledges off the cape and as far as he did. -- Roger Long |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:36:24 -0400, said: I was once hailed by a concerned looking fellow in a J-24 asking if I was okay, because he had noticed my sails looked "a little screwed up" as he put it. I wasn't offended, just amused as I sat there eating my lunch and taking a little break while hove-to. LOL. Wonder if it's possible to heave to in a J-24. Yup... did it off Bezerkeley a couple of months ago. It requires patience but it's possible. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
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Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Thinking about it for a day, I realize that this incident is largely about
intuition. Back when I was flying, several wise old pilots (the old ones are usually wise becaue the Darwin effect is stronger in the air) told me that, when you start rationalizing away the little voice that tells you that you are in trouble, you probably really are in trouble. I still couldn't make a rational case for intruding on this guy's sailing based just on what I could see and describe. He was going slowly but under control and on a straight course. Sail trim was sloppy but how unusual is that? His course was over shoals but the same route I often follow. But, I KNEW something wasn't right. I just let the fact that I couldn't back up that intuition with hard observations keep me from diverting to take a look. The boat was also a factor. If it had been your Catalina or Hunter I probably would have been more likely to check it out. It looked like the kind of long traveling boat owned by someone who knows what they are doing so it was easier to convince myself that he had his reasons for sailing that way. More in the paper today. The operator was 68 years old and made a distress call that his sails were torn and his engine disabled. Seas were 6 feet and winds 20 plus. A Falcon jet did not locate him at his reported position but they found him by his cell phone signal. The paper reports that it was the third time he had required assistance in 36 hours so I don't feel quite so bad about checking him out. If the USCG didn't notice something wrong the first two times, I probably wouldn't have been able to justify getting them involved just by making a close pass. -- Roger Long |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Roger Long" wrote in
: The paper reports that it was the third time he had required assistance in 36 hours so I don't feel quite so bad about checking him out. If the USCG didn't notice something wrong the first two times, I probably wouldn't have been able to justify getting them involved just by making a close pass. CG screwed up. They should have confiscated his boat on the 2ND call and put him before a judge to have his competency tested by a shrink. Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I'm 62. I don't give a **** how "fit" a 60-year-old is, in his mind....Jack La Lane shouldn't be out sailing alone over 60....maybe over 50! |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Larry" wrote
Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I can't believe you're suggesting someting so draconian and restrictive; especially in view of other comments you have made about government intrusion in our lives. There are plenty of 20 year olds who shouldn't be sailing alone for medical and other reasons and many 80 year olds who are safer than most sailors out there. Long before an arbitrary cut off date for single handing like that, I would advocate medical testing and licensing. I don't advocate either. The FAA medical system for private pilots is a joke that wastes millions of dollars a year, keeps healthy pilots out of the air, and lets dangerous ones fly. I doubt the gubmint would do a better job with boaters. If 60 plus citizens shouldn't be sailing alone, they shouldn't be driving cars either. I plan to be sailing well into my 80's, often alone. -- Roger Long |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Jul 26, 7:09*am, Larry wrote:
I'm 62. *I don't give a **** how "fit" a 60-year-old is, in his mind....Jack La Lane shouldn't be out sailing alone over 60....maybe over 50! I can not disagree more! I am a liberal Democrate and belive that govenment intrusion is not a good thing. To simply mandate an upper age limitt is simply ignorant. I looked at the "special-better than the rest of us" web page roger created for RBC. Looking at the pics of the authors here Id say youre right. All over 50 ... white ..... and pudgy to dangerously inable and feble. even though Roger claimes to have the back of a 30 year old. I say performance based licensing is the answer. Get an ocupational theropist and a HRM guy to do a task analysist on sailing. Then create a physial/mental agility test. In its most simple terms [eye test, can you run 2 miles in 12 min, do 50 crunches, lift 80 lbs to yor chest 30 times in 3 min. etc. that sorta stuff] Dont pass. Dont go to sea. But to say no sailing after 50 is bull****.... well that is unless you live in select areas of the USA where 50% of the population is OBEASE! Old fat ****s and people without a clue have no business off shore. Keep them on inland and western rivers and let the county/city water cops take care of them Bob |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Bob wrote:
...Old fat ****s and people without a clue have no business off shore. As far as people without a clue, I tend to agree with you though on the other hand, I think that people have a right to commit suicide any way they choose as long as they don't activate their EPIRB and risk other people's lives in doing so. However, as an old fat ****, myself, I disagree with that part of your statement. My wife and I have made 3 ocean crossings of 20-30 days each as well as numerous shorter passages, logging something like 30,000 nm on our boats. Further, we'll be back out there again as soon as family matters permit. Since we've got hank on sails, we've done our share of sail changes out there on the end of a bouncing bowsprit and all the other tasks the cruising life includes. Cruising is not an aerobic activity. Prior planning, common sense, a knack for fixing things and a willingness to do whatever it takes at times are far more useful than the ability to "run 2 miles in 12 min, do 50 crunches, lift 80 lbs to yor chest 30 times in 3 min. etc". If you don't understand this then I submit that I am probably far safer out there than you are. My days of physical prowess are behind me, but I've still got a lot of years of great cruising ahead of me. It may take me a little longer to get to the top of my mast or to haul my anchor with my manual windless than you, but it's not a race. Hopefully, someday we'll find ourselves in the same anchorage and we can meet face to face and enjoy a sunset and some sushi together. -- Dan Best - (559) 970-9858, Fresno, CA 93704 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://triciajean192.home.comcast.net |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:47:17 -0700, Dan Best
wrote: Hopefully, someday we'll find ourselves in the same anchorage and we can meet face to face and enjoy a sunset and some sushi together. I was with you until you said "sushi." --Vic |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:47:17 -0700, Dan Best wrote: Hopefully, someday we'll find ourselves in the same anchorage and we can meet face to face and enjoy a sunset and some sushi together. I was with you until you said "sushi." --Vic He was trolling... oops.. sorry for the intended pun. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Vic Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:47:17 -0700, Dan Best wrote: Hopefully, someday we'll find ourselves in the same anchorage and we can meet face to face and enjoy a sunset and some sushi together. I was with you until you said "sushi." --Vic I agree too. But, there's nothing wrong with sushi....as long as you cook it right :-) Keith |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Thomas Flores" wrote in message ... If you have doubts, then check it out. Nature is not kind and if you tend to feel responsible for another man's actions then by all means. Would you check out the obvious in this video if that person was alone far offshore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNx2N0E8zw I'd offer assistance to the "red jib" guy and wonder how he'd gotten that far in the first place. I'd imagine that, unless he was impaired, he be tired of drifting and happy to take any help he could get. Merlin |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
I see you use a portabote as a dinghy. What are your thoughts on it?
Thanks Gordon |
Porta-Bote - was: Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Gordon wrote:
I see you use a portabote as a dinghy. What are your thoughts on it? Thanks Gordon Gordon, Dinghies are like religion. Everyone's got an opinion and they are all passionate about them. I don't want to start another flame war with everybody defending their favorite, but since you asked, here's a repost of a detailed response I made to someone else on this subject a few months ago. ------ We used to use a 10' Avon inflatable and in fact, still have the Avon, but haven't used it since we got the 12' Porta-Bote in 2001. About a year and a half ago, we completed a 2 year cruise which took us from SF bay area down to Mexico, up into the Sea of Cortez, on down the mainland coast of Mexico, to El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador, The Galapagos, Polynesia, Tonga, then back up to Hawaii, and finally back to the SF bay area. In all that time, we spent a total of 3 days in a marina in San Diego during final provisioning and another 3 days in a marina in Hawaii, doing some work on the boat before crossing back over to California. The rest of that time, we anchored out. I relate the above just to validate the fact that we relied on our dinghy on a daily basis to get us back and forth from shore, to take excursions on and to dive from for an extended period of time. The Porta-Bote isn't for everybody and it has it's weak points, but on the whole, it works very well for us. "Us" is a husband and wife in our mid-50's. I'm a big guy (6'3" 275 lbs) and my wife is about 5'8 & while I won't say her weight, she's not what anyone would call skinny. I should also note that for a month in Tonga, we also had our son and his girlfriend with us and the 4 of us had no problem using the 12' Porta. Good points: - Ruggedness. We never worry about it rubbing against barnacles or sharp rocks. The worst of that leaves cosmetic scratches, but nothing more. I think everybody with inflatables that we ran into eventually had some kind of problem (seams, valves, punctures, etc.). Porta-Bote users never had to pump up their dinghies in the morning to get them hard. - Easy of use. One person can deploy or restore it, but it's lots faster with 2, so we almost almost always did it together. From stored on deck to in the water with the outboard on and ready to go is maybe 10 minutes without rushing. Noticeably faster than pumping up the Avon. We literally spend almost as much time getting the outboard off the stern rail and onto the Porta as we do assembling the Porta. It's light enough that when recovering it, we tie the bow line to the spinnaker halyard and I hoist it up out of the water and aboard without using a winch while Kathryn guides it into position on the foredeck for disassembly. Launching it after assembling it on the foredeck consists of just dumping it over the side. It also tows nicely. In fair weather, we would rarely bring it up on deck unless we were going to be out overnight. -It stows easily. As you can see in the photo, we stowed ours horizontally on top of the coach roof. Others stowed it along the rail. http://home.comcast.net/~triciajean1...1-05-04-07.JPG -It rows easily and straight. If you've ever rowed an inflatable, you'll know how nice this is. A few owners never use an outboard (most do though). -Faster with the same horsepower. It is much, much faster than our Avon with the same outboard. We started our trip with a 3hp which would plane when there was just one of us aboard. It was giving us some grief (hard to start sometimes), so we replaced it with a 6HP, 4 stroke while we were in Zihuatanejo. It now jumps up onto a fast plane with both of us + groceries, etc. aboard and absolutely flies when there is just one of us. -Capacity. Compared to an inflatable of equivalent length, you can put a lot more grocery bags or other gear into it since you don't have those big, fat tubes taking up so much of your volume. -I never heard of a Porta being stolen. Quite a number of inflatables were. -Cheaper by far. We paid $950 on Ebay for our 12' Porta-Bote with accessories in like new condition. -There are probably more good points, but that's what came to mind. OK, now for what you've been waiting for, the bad points: -Weak seats. They've redesigned them since we got ours and the company says their better, but the ones that came with ours and the other Portas we ran across didn't make it through the first year of continuous use. I don't know if it was the UV exposure or what, but the stainless support pieces would push up through the bottom of the plastic seats. We had some wooden ones made (2 in La Paz and the 3rd in El Salvador) and liked them a whole lot better than those plastic ones. Stronger, look like they are going to last forever and since we painted them white, they're a lot more comfortable to sit on than the black plastic ones after they've been sitting in the tropical sun for awhile. The only down side is that they don't have the built in flotation like the plastic ones did. Before we go out again, I'll have added it to them. -Crappy oars. One plastic blade broke and the fittings rusted badly. We replaced them with these on a trip back up to the States and were very happy with them. http://images.westmarine.com/full/adjoar2004.jpg and http://images.westmarine.com/full/d07944_f.jpg -The black pipe protecting the keel hinge detached in the middle on 2 of the Botes that belonged to others, though it never happened to us. This was not debilitating, just ugly. -Not nearly as much flotation as an inflatable. DUH! If it ever did get swamped, it would be harder to unswamp. Realistically though, the only way you are going to swamp one of these puppies is in the surf (happened to me once - I got thrown sideways and then the next wave rolled me) and where there's one wave breaking, there are lots more behind it. If you swamp any dinghy in the surf, the only way you are going to get it unswamped is to jump out and drag it up out of the surf. As far as size goes, I'd get the largest that you can easily stow up to the 12' model (I understand that the 14' one is substantially heaver than the others). We knew one boat with an 8', a few with the 10' and we had the 12'. The 8' seemed a bit small to me. Fine for 2 people, but it gets crowded quickly when you start adding more. For what it's worth, none of the Porta owners we ran across regretted their decision and wanted to go back to an inflatable. Lots of the inflatable owners were unhappy with their dinghies. Also, whatever you do, don't get a PVC dinghy if you are headed for the tropics. They just don't hold up down there. If you do decide to get an inflatable, get a hypalon one. -- Dan Best - (559) 970-9858, Fresno, CA 93704 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://triciajean192.home.comcast.net |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:09:32 +0000, Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in : The paper reports that it was the third time he had required assistance in 36 hours so I don't feel quite so bad about checking him out. If the USCG didn't notice something wrong the first two times, I probably wouldn't have been able to justify getting them involved just by making a close pass. CG screwed up. They should have confiscated his boat on the 2ND call and put him before a judge to have his competency tested by a shrink. Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I'm 62. I don't give a **** how "fit" a 60-year-old is, in his mind....Jack La Lane shouldn't be out sailing alone over 60....maybe over 50! Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. I also knew an 80-something old cruiser who sailed back from Asia the hard way - head north to Japan and turn right. Equating age and ability is probably only accurate if you talk about solely physical attributes. Which sailing hardly requires. What you don't need is more laws. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:09:32 +0000, Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in : The paper reports that it was the third time he had required assistance in 36 hours so I don't feel quite so bad about checking him out. If the USCG didn't notice something wrong the first two times, I probably wouldn't have been able to justify getting them involved just by making a close pass. CG screwed up. They should have confiscated his boat on the 2ND call and put him before a judge to have his competency tested by a shrink. Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I'm 62. I don't give a **** how "fit" a 60-year-old is, in his mind....Jack La Lane shouldn't be out sailing alone over 60....maybe over 50! Hey Larry, I'm 60. I don't file a voyage plan; I don't tell anyone when to expect me; I don't expect to get any help if I have a heart attack or similar and so far I have managed to solve all my difficulties myself. I do have heath checkups before I leave but fully accept that I may die of the unpredictable. I for one would resent any law you suggest. Last night I had dinner with a 46 year old friend who had a heart attack, though outwardly healthy looking, at age 42. I shall continue to sail alone until, or if, I find someone compatible to sail with. If you prevent me from doing so I shall likely morph into another Wilbur and plague your houses via this newsgroup. regards Peter |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Larry" wrote in message
... Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 05:13:26 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. The point is that a blanket condemnation is not accurate. To true that there are incompetents running boats who shouldn't but equally true is that there are competent individuals, of the same age, doing the same thing. Heck, from your sea stories you must be approaching the magic age. If you are going to get all brown and wizened and turn useless at 60 then how about sending me your dual trace scope. And, I'll take the old Mercedes Diesel too.... do try to get it overhauled though, before you pass the old fellow's mark. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 05:13:26 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. The point is that a blanket condemnation is not accurate. To true that there are incompetents running boats who shouldn't but equally true is that there are competent individuals, of the same age, doing the same thing. Heck, from your sea stories you must be approaching the magic age. If you are going to get all brown and wizened and turn useless at 60 then how about sending me your dual trace scope. And, I'll take the old Mercedes Diesel too.... do try to get it overhauled though, before you pass the old fellow's mark. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: use he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs.... You also allow disabled people to become president - Roosevelt as well as the mentally unstable - seriously though, I can understand and agree with Larry's point. Perhaps if you are going to legislate, then you can have an exceptions clause whereby two knowledgeables can attest to one's ability cheers Peter |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs... Cite? Casady |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Richard Casady" wrote in message
... On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs... Cite? Casady ABC News. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:04:48 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs... Cite? Casady ABC News. OK Casady |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Larry" wrote in message . .. Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs.... If you need eyeglasses to drive you can't get a regular license. Is that what you mean? Casady |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
|
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
"Richard Casady" wrote in message
... On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Larry" wrote in message .. . Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, sorry I can't agree. when I lived in Maine I met a lobsterman - 81 years old and still fishing every day except Sunday. Had you told Capt. Carter he was too old to fish he'd have laughed at you. All these examples are quite admirable, but are the exceptions, not the old goats walking the docks at your local marinas....to the peril of those who must come retrieve them, exhausted and infirmed and unable to continue...or worse....in that storm offshore when they've just pushed it too far one more time. We don't allow the blind to drive a car down the Interstate..... Why do we allow the blind to drive a massive boat, just because he can afford it? I know some really nice people who have no business leaving the docks. We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs.... If you need eyeglasses to drive you can't get a regular license. Is that what you mean? Casady No... they sometimes have heart conditions, epilepsy, stuff like that. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:31:12 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:48:25 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:42 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: We allow disabled people who can't get a regular drivers license to drive big rigs.... If you need eyeglasses to drive you can't get a regular license. Is that what you mean? Google up truck chicago chinatown 2 killed. A bunch were injured too. This guy was obviously disabled. Even forgot to pick up his load. Off his meds or on the wrong ones or something. I know a trucker who collapsed on the road, was luckily able to pull over, had a quadruple bypass to fix the heart condition that made him collapse, qualified for total disability, but went back to driving. They don't monitor truckers like air crew, and the regs/enforcement are laughable. --Vic You just haven't got it yet, have you Vic? The reason that such monitoring is so lacking is that the motorcar is a religious device and political weapon in the USA. Henry Ford and those manufacturers who came later were heavily subsidised by the forerunner of the CIA. The technology was made desirable and along with Coca-Cola (another CIA subsidised business) was exported to other countries in order that they be made dependent on the internal combustion engine. This allowed the fuel companies (which I believe currently benefit for Government support or subsidy in the US) to extract vast sums of wealth for supplying the fuel. Then, when the entire world was addicted, they could impact upon country's economies at will just by restricting or increasing supply at will. That car ownership is akin to a religious cult is obvious. People pay a fortune to own something they cannot sensibly afford, they are intensely passionate about them as well as about their driving ability - road rage for one and they are a part of every male's manhood. That's my contribution to conspiracy theories. A friend recently told me that his company was instituting random drug tests for their truck drivers in Sydney as several have been found to take drugs. One was even discovered driving past a gate house watching a video. cheers Peter |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:50:17 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: "Larry" wrote Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I can't believe you're suggesting someting so draconian and restrictive; especially in view of other comments you have made about government intrusion in our lives. There are plenty of 20 year olds who shouldn't be sailing alone for medical and other reasons and many 80 year olds who are safer than most sailors out there. Long before an arbitrary cut off date for single handing like that, I would advocate medical testing and licensing. I don't advocate either. The FAA medical system for private pilots is a joke that wastes millions of dollars a year, keeps healthy pilots out of the air, and lets dangerous ones fly. I doubt the gubmint would do a better job with boaters. If 60 plus citizens shouldn't be sailing alone, they shouldn't be driving cars either. I plan to be sailing well into my 80's, often alone. Ditto to everything Roger wrote. I'm 62 and have been sailing since I was 8. Mostly single handed or with another person who was really no help. Several years of longterm live aboard cruising. I guess if you added them all up it'd be close to 10 years. Yes, I have "slowed down" a bit, but not all that much. The biggest difference is that after a lot of physical effort and/or lack of sleep, it takes a little longer to recover - like 2 or 3 days instead of the next day. Wife and I went out sailing last weekend. Almost record temperatures of 101 deg. The main halyard fouled on a block up past the spreaders. I had to go up and free it finally in about 15 kt winds. Now, when I was 20 I probably would have gone up the mast steps like the proverbial monkey. Now I just took my time going up, took my time getting things free and took my time going down. Okay, so it took me a few minutes longer but a lot less effort. Had I been as wise at age 20, I would have done it the same way. To paraphrase some football player. In bad conditions offshore, it's like fighting with a 600 lb gorilla. You don't stop when you get tired, you stop when the gorilla gets tired. If you can't fight that gorilla then you don't put yourself in a situation where you might have to. I've fought that gorilla quite a few times over the years. I've found it to be a lot less effort using my brain instead of my brawn. For instance, see a squall line off in the distance that MIGHT be heading my way. Reef now. Maybe 9 out of 10 times the storm went on, but it's worth it for the 1 time it didn't. A lot easier, and smarter, to easily reef than to fight it AFTER it hits you. 'Valkyrie' is our home and we plan on living aboard and cruising for as long as we can, hopefully into the 80's. Re flying. My dad rebuilt airplanes so got to fly all kinds of neat old planes. He gave up flying at age 87. The only reason was his vision was failing. He could still easily take and enjoy aerobatics with me at the stick. Rick ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On 2008-07-26 00:54:06 -0400, Larry said:
I was amazed I could actually make those lines creak with the 175 Sport Jet pump. She had more power than I imagined.... Xan surprises a number of grounded boats, including a few 40+' crab crushers that don't realize what a wind shift from south to north means on the Chesapeake.... We only have 20 hp, but with a 16" 3-blade connecting us to the water, we *have* pulled stumps (or whatever was hanging onto our new SPADE anchor a few years back. Had to replace that anchor line.) -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On 2008-07-25 12:56:33 -0400, "Thomas Flores" said:
If you have doubts, then check it out. Nature is not kind and if you tend to feel responsible for another man's actions then by all means. I usually check, helping one or two boaters on average each season. Would you check out the obvious in this video if that person was alone far offshore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLNx2N0E8zw Why? All of them seemed to be doing just fine. If they're not moving or I can't see the helmsperson, I'd check. -- Jere Lull Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:50:17 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: "Larry" wrote Of course, we COULD have some SANE laws that says NOONE OVER 60 SAILS ALONE......which is fairly obvious, but we'd rather risk CG sailor's lives than screw with the elite's right to be stupid. I can't believe you're suggesting someting so draconian and restrictive; especially in view of other comments you have made about government intrusion in our lives. There are plenty of 20 year olds who shouldn't be sailing alone for medical and other reasons and many 80 year olds who are safer than most sailors out there. Long before an arbitrary cut off date for single handing like that, I would advocate medical testing and licensing. I don't advocate either. The FAA medical system for private pilots is a joke that wastes millions of dollars a year, keeps healthy pilots out of the air, and lets dangerous ones fly. I doubt the gubmint would do a better job with boaters. If 60 plus citizens shouldn't be sailing alone, they shouldn't be driving cars either. I plan to be sailing well into my 80's, often alone. Ditto to everything Roger wrote. I'm 62 and have been sailing since I was 8. Mostly single handed or with another person who was really no help. Several years of longterm live aboard cruising. I guess if you added them all up it'd be close to 10 years. Yes, I have "slowed down" a bit, but not all that much. The biggest difference is that after a lot of physical effort and/or lack of sleep, it takes a little longer to recover - like 2 or 3 days instead of the next day. Wife and I went out sailing last weekend. Almost record temperatures of 101 deg. The main halyard fouled on a block up past the spreaders. I had to go up and free it finally in about 15 kt winds. Now, when I was 20 I probably would have gone up the mast steps like the proverbial monkey. Now I just took my time going up, took my time getting things free and took my time going down. Okay, so it took me a few minutes longer but a lot less effort. Had I been as wise at age 20, I would have done it the same way. To paraphrase some football player. In bad conditions offshore, it's like fighting with a 600 lb gorilla. You don't stop when you get tired, you stop when the gorilla gets tired. If you can't fight that gorilla then you don't put yourself in a situation where you might have to. I've fought that gorilla quite a few times over the years. I've found it to be a lot less effort using my brain instead of my brawn. For instance, see a squall line off in the distance that MIGHT be heading my way. Reef now. Maybe 9 out of 10 times the storm went on, but it's worth it for the 1 time it didn't. A lot easier, and smarter, to easily reef than to fight it AFTER it hits you. 'Valkyrie' is our home and we plan on living aboard and cruising for as long as we can, hopefully into the 80's. Re flying. My dad rebuilt airplanes so got to fly all kinds of neat old planes. He gave up flying at age 87. The only reason was his vision was failing. He could still easily take and enjoy aerobatics with me at the stick. Rick ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:22:17 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: You just haven't got it yet, have you Vic? The reason that such monitoring is so lacking is that the motorcar is a religious device and political weapon in the USA. Henry Ford and those manufacturers who came later were heavily subsidised by the forerunner of the CIA. The technology was made desirable and along with Coca-Cola (another CIA subsidised business) was exported to other countries in order that they be made dependent on the internal combustion engine. This allowed the fuel companies (which I believe currently benefit for Government support or subsidy in the US) to extract vast sums of wealth for supplying the fuel. Then, when the entire world was addicted, they could impact upon country's economies at will just by restricting or increasing supply at will. That car ownership is akin to a religious cult is obvious. People pay a fortune to own something they cannot sensibly afford, they are intensely passionate about them as well as about their driving ability - road rage for one and they are a part of every male's manhood. That's my contribution to conspiracy theories. Not bad. Could have worked Marlboros in though. And maybe KFC. A friend recently told me that his company was instituting random drug tests for their truck drivers in Sydney as several have been found to take drugs. One was even discovered driving past a gate house watching a video. I've read they have long freight train-like multi-trailer rigs in Oz. That might require a little care in who is "engineering" the train. I think doubles are the limit in the U.S., but wouldn't swear to it. Most trucker regulation here is done after an accident. --Vic |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Herodotus wrote in
: they are a part of every male's manhood. Bull****! I'm lookin' at mine and I don't see no car! Poor little willy ain't got no license to drive it anyways. That's the only reason he takes me out on dates with the girls!....duty driver! |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:54:00 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:22:17 +1000, Herodotus wrote: You just haven't got it yet, have you Vic? The reason that such monitoring is so lacking is that the motorcar is a religious device and political weapon in the USA. Henry Ford and those manufacturers who came later were heavily subsidised by the forerunner of the CIA. The technology was made desirable and along with Coca-Cola (another CIA subsidised business) was exported to other countries in order that they be made dependent on the internal combustion engine. This allowed the fuel companies (which I believe currently benefit for Government support or subsidy in the US) to extract vast sums of wealth for supplying the fuel. Then, when the entire world was addicted, they could impact upon country's economies at will just by restricting or increasing supply at will. That car ownership is akin to a religious cult is obvious. People pay a fortune to own something they cannot sensibly afford, they are intensely passionate about them as well as about their driving ability - road rage for one and they are a part of every male's manhood. That's my contribution to conspiracy theories. Not bad. Could have worked Marlboros in though. And maybe KFC. A friend recently told me that his company was instituting random drug tests for their truck drivers in Sydney as several have been found to take drugs. One was even discovered driving past a gate house watching a video. I've read they have long freight train-like multi-trailer rigs in Oz. That might require a little care in who is "engineering" the train. I think doubles are the limit in the U.S., but wouldn't swear to it. Most trucker regulation here is done after an accident. They have triples in the US. Casady |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:54:00 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: I've read they have long freight train-like multi-trailer rigs in Oz. That might require a little care in who is "engineering" the train. I think doubles are the limit in the U.S., but wouldn't swear to it. Most trucker regulation here is done after an accident. --Vic Hi Vic Yes, the tractor (truck) unit tows three semi-trailers. They are called "road trains". In the Northern Territory these travel at whatever speed they care to as there is no speed limit. Bare in mind that there is not the traffic density that would be on a similar US highway. They carry stock, grain and goods. The longest are from Adelaide at the bottom in South Australia to Darwin in Northern Territory right at the top. Basically all of the goods that Darwin consumes come from Adelaide. Would be a great job for a while. BTW Am back home in Malaysia staying with my kids with a friend/colleague at his kampong near Kelang near the capital Kuala Lumpur. The Indonesian maid makes superb black coffee from Java beans. There is nothing like being greeted in the morning with a cup of such coffee. You can keep your US imperialistic Starbucks. I'll have my real Java coffee. She roasts and pounds the beans herself so that there is some variation in taste each day. Not a science perhaps but allows the delight of daily discovery and comparison. I offered to buy her an electric coffee grounder but she merely screwed up her face at my offer. cheers Peter |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:15:22 +0000, Larry wrote:
Herodotus wrote in : they are a part of every male's manhood. Bull****! I'm lookin' at mine and I don't see no car! Poor little willy ain't got no license to drive it anyways. That's the only reason he takes me out on dates with the girls!....duty driver! Larry, You always seem to come out of left field and make me laugh. I guess that's why I love you. cheers Peter |
Soul searching about a sailor in trouble
Herodotus wrote in
: On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:15:22 +0000, Larry wrote: Herodotus wrote in m: they are a part of every male's manhood. Bull****! I'm lookin' at mine and I don't see no car! Poor little willy ain't got no license to drive it anyways. That's the only reason he takes me out on dates with the girls!....duty driver! Larry, You always seem to come out of left field and make me laugh. I guess that's why I love you. cheers Peter Damned Dutch beer.... I was hoping you'd get a kick out of it...(c; Boat groups are always way too serious, fussing over the damndest crap like varnish and rope. The place needs more fun....before they all turn to STONE! |
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