On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 15:39:25 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Rick & Linda Bernard wrote:

Ok guys and gals what about lavac heads?

An excellent choice for cruising adult sailors...not the best choice for
"weekend warrior" families with small children and/or a lot of
landlubber guests, or a powerboat.

OK, Peggy, we've discussed Lavacs before, and I appreciate your
thoughts. How about this: stick with the PAR/Jabsco/Raritan stuff for
"light duty" (evenings, weekends, one week cruising sort of thing) and
go Lavac or W-C for liveaboards and blue water cruising of multi-week
duration?

I think what I am asking is what in your opinion is the right tool for
the right job, given that a properly maintained $150 marine head with
a sound installation is fine for "light" use (or so I would guess),
but the stakes are a lot higher when the head on your boat is the only
toilet in a thousand square miles of ocean? G In other words, under
what circumstances would you go for the "better" bog, and why?

Thanks and welcome back. A token of the regard in which you are held
is that half a dozen people attempted to guess your opinions!

R.

rhys wrote:
OK, Peggy, we've discussed Lavacs before, and I appreciate your
thoughts. How about this: stick with the PAR/Jabsco/Raritan stuff for
"light duty" (evenings, weekends, one week cruising sort of thing) and
go Lavac or W-C for liveaboards and blue water cruising of multi-week
duration?

Raritan, Groco and W-C all make both "light duty" and "serious" toilets.
The Groco Model K and the W-C Skipper--along with the "Baby Blake," made
by the same people in the UK who make the Lavac, but not sold in the
US--are the top of the line for between $750-$1000.... The Raritan PH II
and Lavac for $250-$350 are next, and about equal in reliability and
durability (the only real difference is the amount of maintenance the
Lavac is PERCEIVED to require)...anything under $200 would be "light duty."

If your budget is between $200-$500, the Lavac and PH II have proven to
be a toss-up when it comes to the amount of maintenance required and
average lifespan--20-25 years if the pump is rebuilt about every 5-6
years. For $750-$1000, you can have a toilet built to last at least 100
years with about the same level of maintenance, but spares can cost as
much as a complete "light duty" toilet. So if you need a "serious"
toilet, it really comes down to how much you want to spend.

I think what I am asking is what in your opinion is the right tool for
the right job, given that a properly maintained $150 marine head with
a sound installation is fine for "light" use (or so I would guess),
but the stakes are a lot higher when the head on your boat is the only
toilet in a thousand square miles of ocean? G In other words, under
what circumstances would you go for the "better" bog, and why?

I wouldn't put a "light duty" toilet on my own boat, even for "light
use"...they're too easily broken, have relatively short trouble-free
life-spans, and will choke on flushes that a better toilet can swallow,
even when meticulously maintained...you do get what you pay for. I
wouldn't put ANY toilet on my boat just a few weeks ahead of heading out
to sea, either...even the best can occasionally have a defective part,
so I'd want to use it a while first. But if you're asking whether the
choice should ONLY be between the Lavac or very expensive toilets, my
answer is no. Weigh ALL the considerations and decide which one provides
you with the most comfort level--trust, ease of use, cost to maintain,
parts availability etc--within your budget. Personally, I'd be equally
as comfortable with a PH II or a Lavac 1000 miles from shore for months
at a time.

Thanks and welcome back. A token of the regard in which you are held
is that half a dozen people attempted to guess your opinions!

Thank you!

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

rhys wrote:
OK, Peggy, we've discussed Lavacs before, and I appreciate your
thoughts. How about this: stick with the PAR/Jabsco/Raritan stuff for
"light duty" (evenings, weekends, one week cruising sort of thing) and
go Lavac or W-C for liveaboards and blue water cruising of multi-week
duration?

Raritan, Groco and W-C all make both "light duty" and "serious" toilets.
The Groco Model K and the W-C Skipper--along with the "Baby Blake," made
by the same people in the UK who make the Lavac, but not sold in the
US--are the top of the line for between $750-$1000.... The Raritan PH II
and Lavac for $250-$350 are next, and about equal in reliability and
durability (the only real difference is the amount of maintenance the
Lavac is PERCEIVED to require)...anything under $200 would be "light duty."

If your budget is between $200-$500, the Lavac and PH II have proven to
be a toss-up when it comes to the amount of maintenance required and
average lifespan--20-25 years if the pump is rebuilt about every 5-6
years. For $750-$1000, you can have a toilet built to last at least 100
years with about the same level of maintenance, but spares can cost as
much as a complete "light duty" toilet. So if you need a "serious"
toilet, it really comes down to how much you want to spend.

I think what I am asking is what in your opinion is the right tool for
the right job, given that a properly maintained $150 marine head with
a sound installation is fine for "light" use (or so I would guess),
but the stakes are a lot higher when the head on your boat is the only
toilet in a thousand square miles of ocean? G In other words, under
what circumstances would you go for the "better" bog, and why?

I wouldn't put a "light duty" toilet on my own boat, even for "light
use"...they're too easily broken, have relatively short trouble-free
life-spans, and will choke on flushes that a better toilet can swallow,
even when meticulously maintained...you do get what you pay for. I
wouldn't put ANY toilet on my boat just a few weeks ahead of heading out
to sea, either...even the best can occasionally have a defective part,
so I'd want to use it a while first. But if you're asking whether the
choice should ONLY be between the Lavac or very expensive toilets, my
answer is no. Weigh ALL the considerations and decide which one provides
you with the most comfort level--trust, ease of use, cost to maintain,
parts availability etc--within your budget. Personally, I'd be equally
as comfortable with a PH II or a Lavac 1000 miles from shore for months
at a time.

Thanks and welcome back. A token of the regard in which you are held
is that half a dozen people attempted to guess your opinions!

Thank you!

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I have been reading through all the head options but just got back from
an
extended trip so we may have missed a few recommendations.

We removed an "ancient" head at the end of the season and need to get
going
on a replacement. We own a cruiser docked on Lake Michigan. We plan to
do
some extended cruising in the great lakes this year.

Do you have a suggestion on non-manual replacement?

How long will you typically want to stay out without coming in for fuel,
water, ice, provisions, etc?

Currently, there is no
holding tank in the bilges so we'll need to add one(any suggestions as
to
size -- we have plenty of bilge space)?

Can't answer that one till I know the answers to the above questions.

We also have pressurized fresh water
available in the head space.

How much fresh water do you carry?

We'll have someone install what we need and our
budget (not including installation costs) is $2k max.

I think you can come in under that, even including installation.

35 foot power. 3-4 people typically on board. Most cruises are 3 days
although we'll be trying a few week long cruises this summer for the first
time. 70+ gallons of fresh water though we're considering an upgrade since
we prefer to anchor out rather than come in to the docks on cruises (most of
the time).

The prev ious owner's logs show that we'd burn through about 70% of our fuel
to get from one end (length) of Lake Michigan to the other so we'd probably
make only one fuel & provision (and pumpout if necessary) stop on most
cruises. We plan to island hop and anchor rather than docking at towns most
of the time. We are, of course, in a no discharge area. We have a spot
that's 21 x 15 for head location.

SO wants a head that's as similar to "home" as possible, especially since
the rotating roster of relatives who come aboard normally have their feet
firmly planted on the ground.

Just as general info, we're new to power boating and spent all of last year
attending classes and taking hands-on piloting lessons from a very
experienced commercial captain. Except for a single 60-mile cruise last year
and a lot of very short trips, this season will be our first to really enjoy
the boat.

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I have been reading through all the head options but just got back from
an
extended trip so we may have missed a few recommendations.

We removed an "ancient" head at the end of the season and need to get
going
on a replacement. We own a cruiser docked on Lake Michigan. We plan to
do
some extended cruising in the great lakes this year.

Do you have a suggestion on non-manual replacement?

How long will you typically want to stay out without coming in for fuel,
water, ice, provisions, etc?

Currently, there is no
holding tank in the bilges so we'll need to add one(any suggestions as
to
size -- we have plenty of bilge space)?

Can't answer that one till I know the answers to the above questions.

We also have pressurized fresh water
available in the head space.

How much fresh water do you carry?

We'll have someone install what we need and our
budget (not including installation costs) is $2k max.

I think you can come in under that, even including installation.

35 foot power. 3-4 people typically on board. Most cruises are 3 days
although we'll be trying a few week long cruises this summer for the first
time. 70+ gallons of fresh water though we're considering an upgrade since
we prefer to anchor out rather than come in to the docks on cruises (most of
the time).

The prev ious owner's logs show that we'd burn through about 70% of our fuel
to get from one end (length) of Lake Michigan to the other so we'd probably
make only one fuel & provision (and pumpout if necessary) stop on most
cruises. We plan to island hop and anchor rather than docking at towns most
of the time. We are, of course, in a no discharge area. We have a spot
that's 21 x 15 for head location.

SO wants a head that's as similar to "home" as possible, especially since
the rotating roster of relatives who come aboard normally have their feet
firmly planted on the ground.

Just as general info, we're new to power boating and spent all of last year
attending classes and taking hands-on piloting lessons from a very
experienced commercial captain. Except for a single 60-mile cruise last year
and a lot of very short trips, this season will be our first to really enjoy
the boat.

Based on what you've told me, I think a Raritan Atlantes would be your
best choice...it's a full household size, all china toilet that offers 4
flush options including dry, and can use as little as a quart of
water--which in "no discharge" waters is important. By adding the
optional internal vented loop, the bowl can even hold water "like the
one at home." I'd also opt for the touch pad to flush. Check it out on
the Raritan website at http://www.raritaneng.com List is about $1100,
if you shop hard you should be able to find it for about $800-850.

The real problem is enough holding tank capacity for 4 people for at
least a week, and unfortunately on the Great Lakes a holding tank is the
only option. The average adult uses the head 5x/day, average output
about 8 oz. So even if the low water flush of only a quart is needed to
flush just urine, that's still 1.5-2 gal/day/person...6 gal/day. So the
smallest tank you could get by with without coming in for a week is
42-45 gallons (50 would safer), which is a LOT of holding tank for a 35'
boat. That it should be within about 6' of the toilet can severely limit
the locations it would fit into, too.

So IMO, you'd be better off with a 30-35 gallon tank and plan to come in
to pump out about every 4 days. It doesn't make a lot of sense to equip
a boat for what may be needed for only about 10% of its use.

Does the boat have a tank now? If so, what size? Is it plastic (I hope)?

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

35 foot power. 3-4 people typically on board. Most cruises are 3 days
although we'll be trying a few week long cruises this summer for the
first time. 70+ gallons of fresh water though we're considering an
upgrade since we prefer to anchor out rather than come in to the
docks on cruises (most of the time).

The prev ious owner's logs show that we'd burn through about 70% of
our fuel to get from one end (length) of Lake Michigan to the other
so we'd probably make only one fuel & provision (and pumpout if
necessary) stop on most cruises. We plan to island hop and anchor
rather than docking at towns most of the time. We are, of course, in
a no discharge area. We have a spot that's 21 x 15 for head location.


SO wants a head that's as similar to "home" as possible, especially
since the rotating roster of relatives who come aboard normally have
their feet firmly planted on the ground.

Just as general info, we're new to power boating and spent all of
last year attending classes and taking hands-on piloting lessons from
a very experienced commercial captain. Except for a single 60-mile
cruise last year and a lot of very short trips, this season will be
our first to really enjoy the boat.

Based on what you've told me, I think a Raritan Atlantes would be your
best choice...it's a full household size, all china toilet that offers 4
flush options including dry, and can use as little as a quart of
water--which in "no discharge" waters is important. By adding the
optional internal vented loop, the bowl can even hold water "like the
one at home." I'd also opt for the touch pad to flush. Check it out on
the Raritan website at http://www.raritaneng.com List is about $1100,
if you shop hard you should be able to find it for about $800-850.

The real problem is enough holding tank capacity for 4 people for at
least a week, and unfortunately on the Great Lakes a holding tank is the
only option. The average adult uses the head 5x/day, average output
about 8 oz. So even if the low water flush of only a quart is needed to
flush just urine, that's still 1.5-2 gal/day/person...6 gal/day. So the
smallest tank you could get by with without coming in for a week is
42-45 gallons (50 would safer), which is a LOT of holding tank for a 35'
boat. That it should be within about 6' of the toilet can severely limit
the locations it would fit into, too.

So IMO, you'd be better off with a 30-35 gallon tank and plan to come in
to pump out about every 4 days. It doesn't make a lot of sense to equip
a boat for what may be needed for only about 10% of its use.

Does the boat have a tank now? If so, what size? Is it plastic (I hope)?

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html

35 foot power. 3-4 people typically on board. Most cruises are 3 days
although we'll be trying a few week long cruises this summer for the
first time. 70+ gallons of fresh water though we're considering an
upgrade since we prefer to anchor out rather than come in to the
docks on cruises (most of the time).

The prev ious owner's logs show that we'd burn through about 70% of
our fuel to get from one end (length) of Lake Michigan to the other
so we'd probably make only one fuel & provision (and pumpout if
necessary) stop on most cruises. We plan to island hop and anchor
rather than docking at towns most of the time. We are, of course, in
a no discharge area. We have a spot that's 21 x 15 for head location.


SO wants a head that's as similar to "home" as possible, especially
since the rotating roster of relatives who come aboard normally have
their feet firmly planted on the ground.

Just as general info, we're new to power boating and spent all of
last year attending classes and taking hands-on piloting lessons from
a very experienced commercial captain. Except for a single 60-mile
cruise last year and a lot of very short trips, this season will be
our first to really enjoy the boat.

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 13:36:45 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

n, have relatively short trouble-free
life-spans, and will choke on flushes that a better toilet can swallow,
even when meticulously maintained...you do get what you pay for. I
wouldn't put ANY toilet on my boat just a few weeks ahead of heading out
to sea, either...even the best can occasionally have a defective part,
so I'd want to use it a while first.

Good advice. I don't currently face this situation, but I certainly
hope to before long G

Thanks,

R.

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 13:36:45 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

n, have relatively short trouble-free
life-spans, and will choke on flushes that a better toilet can swallow,
even when meticulously maintained...you do get what you pay for. I
wouldn't put ANY toilet on my boat just a few weeks ahead of heading out
to sea, either...even the best can occasionally have a defective part,
so I'd want to use it a while first.

Good advice. I don't currently face this situation, but I certainly
hope to before long G

Thanks,

R.