On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:04:41 -0700, Keith Hughes
wrote:



Steven Shelikoff wrote:

That's ok. Fluid on the pressure side of the prop is nowhere near
laminar either and will in fact be totally non-uniform around the
rudder. Yet the rudder still has an effect on the boat's direction.


No, it's not laminar, it is unidirectional along one axis.

Actually, it's not that either.

Unidirectional flow can be diverted creating a thrust vector, unlike
the non-unidirectional flow on the suction side where the rudder
provides pressure drop instead of redirection/diversion. That's the
difference.

Yes, you can create a thrust vector by diverting non-unidirectional flow
as long as the the sum of the non-unidirectional flow is not 0, which it
is not for the case we are talking about because if it was, the boat
would not move backwards when the engine is put in reverse.

Sure you can create a vacuum in water,

You need to check the definition of vacuum if you believe this.
"Vacuum in water" is an oxymoron.

You're probably thinking of an absolute vacuum. In that case, a "vacuum
in air" is an oxymoron also. But since you mentioned a vacuum in air,
here we must talking about a relative vacuum which is simply an area
where the pressure is lower than another area. That is easily created
in water.

just like in air. The only
difference is that water doesn't change it's volume (as much, but it
does a small amoutn) when the pressure changes.

The *liquid* volume does not change, that's a basic property of
liquids. Their volume is temperature dependent, not pressure

Actually, the liquid volume can change when the pressure changes.
However, it's a minute amount only measurable for drastic pressure
changes. But that's outside the scope of this thread, where we can
treat the liquid volume as constant when the pressure changes.

dependent. If you reduce the pressure, dissolved gases will evolve
(that *is* cavitation) but you now have bubbles suspended in a
liquid, i.e. foam.

That depends on how much you reduce the pressure. Is it your contention
that anytime you reduce the pressure of a liquid by any amount that you
must have cavitation? If so, you are plainly wrong.

There's still a vacuum
though.

Don't think so.

You think wrong ... if we're talking about a relative vacuum and not an
absolute vacuum, which is obvious we are from your previous statement:
"so you can't create a vacuum in water like you do in air." A vacuum in
air is also an oxymoron unless you're *not* talking about an absolute
vacuum.

And you can certainly create a vacuum in water without cavitation.
Cavitation only occurs if the pressure of the water drops below it's
vapor pressure.

Yes, and you would create a vacuum without doing this exactly how?
Fluid is not elastic. Move it from one point too quickly (what you'd
*have* to do to create a local low pressure area) and you will
liberate dissolve gas (even gaseous water) due to the low pressure
and/or high temperature created by the shear. Water doesn't stretch.

But it does flow from higher pressure areas to lower pressure areas.
The lower pressure areas are the vacuum in this case, just like air.
And it does not have to cavitate in the areas under lower pressure.

There's a whole art/science of creating props that work
without cavitation for use with submarines.

Quite so. They do not, however, generate 'pockets of vacuum' in
doing so.

Sure they do. The area in front of the prop blade is at a lower
pressure than the area behind the prop. i.e., one definition of a
vacuum.

You can measure a vacuum in water yourself if you want. Just put a
vacuum gauge behind a water pump and you will measure the vacuum of the
pump sucking water through it. I have several of them on my boat for
measuring the condition of fuel filters.

Steve