Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

[...]
Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)


Not specifically, but consider: If the boat is worth $20K, or $15K, or
even $8K, why doesn't the owner sell it himself, pay off his
liens/fees, and pocket at least a little profit?

My guess was that he (they) can't, he doesn't have the money to get his
boat out of the impound first so he can sell it. He let the payments
slide for too long.

Abandoned vehicles of
any sort are usually in poor condition. But, like I said, it's always
possible that you could wind up with a fabulous deal.

I guess the marinas make the renters put up their boats as collateral
upon failure to pay as happens with cars and car payments, and plenty of
good cars get repo'd, right? They don't fit in the same category as
"abandoned." The boat or car gets taken even when the owner badly
doesn't want it to, unlike abandoned vehicles.

Their misfortune is my fortune! cough

...snip...

insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats altogether.


My short answer is, "No." Maybe after a lucky deal on a used Swan or a
"collectible" boat or something, but not for a Hunter or most any boat
you're looking at. As always, there could always be a specific
exception and/or I could simply be be wrong. But that's my $.02.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to re-gauge my estimation of Hunters. They don't
make Catalina's look like MacGregors, then? I figured since I heard good
things about them and couldn't find cheap ones anywhere on the internet,
they were a cut above the other stuff I've been looking at. Like, what's
better, a Hunter or a Ranger? I'm leaning toward the lighter/faster
boats for more speed and because I don't need as much seaworthiness,
since I'll probably never get out of Puget Sound.

Good luck! Keep us informed of your progress.

Thanks!

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Frank Maier wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
....snip...
My guess was that he (they) can't, he doesn't have the money to get his
boat out of the impound first so he can sell it. He let the payments
slide for too long.
....snip...
I guess the marinas make the renters put up their boats as collateral
upon failure to pay as happens with cars and car payments, and plenty of
good cars get repo'd, right? They don't fit in the same category as
"abandoned." The boat or car gets taken even when the owner badly
doesn't want it to, unlike abandoned vehicles.

You're conceptualizing a repo on a vehicle with some value to a
lender; but this scenario is much closer to a lien against a vehicle
(boat) so worthless that the owner is unable to turn it into enough
cash to cover the lien. Don't think "repo," think impound or
mechanic's lien against a vehicle which isn't worth what's owed to the
offended party. But, ICBW.

....snip...
Hmm, I guess I'll have to re-gauge my estimation of Hunters. They don't
make Catalina's look like MacGregors, then? I figured since I heard good
things about them and couldn't find cheap ones anywhere on the internet,
they were a cut above the other stuff I've been looking at. Like, what's
better, a Hunter or a Ranger?...snip...

Many people would contend that Catalinas are better built than
Hunters. It's analogous to Fiat and Renault debating which is more
dependable. Scylla vs. Charybdis. Your choice.

Me, I'd prefer the Ranger. But, like I said a while back, I think you
could be happy/safe (enough) gunkholing around Puget Sound even in a
Newport, which is, IMO, a distinct cut below Catalina/Hunter, which
are (again IMO) a cut below Beneteau, a marque which some consider the
absolute pits.

My essential rule of life for most things: It ain't the inital cost;
it's the upkeep. Others have made some pretty useful and informative
suggestions in this thread. I'd re-read the whole thread and digest it
for a bit before moving too quickly to a final decision.

Frank

Hey, thanks for the answer. Interesting idea. I have a couple questions:


Dan Best wrote:

[...]
date. Then write letters to the owners that basically state the truth.
[...]
Some of these boats are just sitting there because a husband died, or


One advantage of doing it this way is that the owner often will have no
idea what the actual resale value of the boat is.
[..]
You can take advantage
of this.[...]

Do not forget to figure into your budget the costs of boat ownership.
They are ALWAYS much higher that you expect.

Good luck! Dan

I think I may try your scheme! So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran

...snip...

Is this too good to be true?


Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

I don't remember if you gave any history in your original post. Have
you considered simply chartering?

I've got a few good reasons to get a boat, one is that I grew up with a
Blanchard 33' in HI, done various types of sailing/boating on that boat
and a little on a few others, so it's not like I don't know if I'll like
sailing/cruising. I know exactly what sort of boating I don't like and
what type I do. I want to explore, for example, not just sail back and
forth in a channel. Racing might be fun. Also this is prime family
activity time with my two sons right now at their age.

Chartering will cost eight hundred a shot or more, right? Won't that add
up fast?

We can't get too small a boat. There's a limit to how small a space a
family can live in comfortaby for any length of time more than a day or
so, so I can't go small. *Maybe* we could handle something the size of a
Catalina 27' in a pinch, but it sure would be easier if it were bigger.
Any of you with families probably know what I mean. Plus, I'm the type
of person who would rather take a little more risk with a bigger upside
than to take the safe, lesser fun/payoff route. Maybe not a good idea
with boats?

Another reason it particularly makes sense for me to own a boat is that
I happen to have property and free moorage on Puget Sound that I can use
whenever I want and it makes huge sense when you live on this good of a
body of water to take advantage of the water side of the equation.

Another reason is that I do often enjoy fixing up my things and making
them more valuable, or at least, um maintaining some of their value. So
I don't mind doing that type of work. I'll squeeze an hour or two in
after tying up somewhere, right before beer time!

Stephen

Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Dan,
Good advice.
Paul

"Dan Best" wrote in message
news:dvP8c.10475$K91.40455@attbi_s02...
Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG