Hey, thanks for the answer. Interesting idea. I have a couple questions:


Dan Best wrote:

[...]
date. Then write letters to the owners that basically state the truth.
[...]
Some of these boats are just sitting there because a husband died, or


One advantage of doing it this way is that the owner often will have no
idea what the actual resale value of the boat is.
[..]
You can take advantage
of this.[...]

Do not forget to figure into your budget the costs of boat ownership.
They are ALWAYS much higher that you expect.

Good luck! Dan

I think I may try your scheme! So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Dan,
Good advice.
Paul

"Dan Best" wrote in message
news:dvP8c.10475$K91.40455@attbi_s02...
Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG