Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran, as advised (though the hull looked in good shape from what I could
see, but it needed much work, the masts looked scary for example, and it
wasn't as roomy below as I thought it would be...

My boat-looking last weekend at a Ranger 29' and some Catalina 27's and
smaller, along with some power boats, taught me that for my family I
need at least the size of the Ranger 29,' and hopefully bigger, like a
Catalina 30' would be fabulous, sizewise. My problem is my budget, which
is about $8K for a *working* cruiser/weekender.

So it seems I need some kind of edge, which leads me to consider boat
auctions. Many of these boats are confiscated by the Marina's right? and
are perfectly fine, many of them?

Anyway, there's this guy who is an acquaintance of a friend of mine who
buys boats at auctions, fixes them and sells them; who thinks he can get
this beautiful sloop, bigger and with a much better reputation than the
Catalina 30,' for within my budget. The lowest I can find any similar
boats on the internet is about $18,000!

The guy seems okay, I went and looked at the impounded boat at the
Marina (only from the outside so far since the boat still hasn't been
taken over by the Marina quite yet), and I loved it, from what I could
see. Anyway, this seems to get me everything I want, a boat I can get
back what I put into it (decked out versions on the internet go for
$25K!), it's big enough, a good sailor. What should I watch out for?
Does anyone here no about boat auctions? Is this too good to be true?

Thanks,

Stephen

What kind of boat are you looking at?
Prices at Yachtworld, or elsewhere on the internet, are asking prices,
figure actual purchase prices are about 2/3 of asking.

Be VERY careful. A cheap boat can be the most expensive kind.
Jim

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran, as advised (though the hull looked in good shape from what I could
see, but it needed much work, the masts looked scary for example, and it
wasn't as roomy below as I thought it would be...

My boat-looking last weekend at a Ranger 29' and some Catalina 27's and
smaller, along with some power boats, taught me that for my family I
need at least the size of the Ranger 29,' and hopefully bigger, like a
Catalina 30' would be fabulous, sizewise. My problem is my budget, which
is about $8K for a *working* cruiser/weekender.

So it seems I need some kind of edge, which leads me to consider boat
auctions. Many of these boats are confiscated by the Marina's right? and
are perfectly fine, many of them?

Anyway, there's this guy who is an acquaintance of a friend of mine who
buys boats at auctions, fixes them and sells them; who thinks he can get
this beautiful sloop, bigger and with a much better reputation than the
Catalina 30,' for within my budget. The lowest I can find any similar
boats on the internet is about $18,000!

The guy seems okay, I went and looked at the impounded boat at the
Marina (only from the outside so far since the boat still hasn't been
taken over by the Marina quite yet), and I loved it, from what I could
see. Anyway, this seems to get me everything I want, a boat I can get
back what I put into it (decked out versions on the internet go for
$25K!), it's big enough, a good sailor. What should I watch out for?
Does anyone here no about boat auctions? Is this too good to be true?

Thanks,

Stephen

Jim's right on his first point (what kind of boat is it?), but too
cautious on his second point. I'd say that cheap boats are often, even
usually, the most expensive kind.

There is one tactic you might consider that I used once: Basically walk
the docks looking for boats of the type you have in mind, but that are
waaaay neglected. You know the ones, they have a foot of growth on
their bottoms and their registration stickers are several years out of
date. Then write letters to the owners that basically state the truth.
i.e. You desperately want a boat of this type that you can enjoy while
introducing your kids to boating, but that your budget for is, by
necessity, extremely limited. That you spotted this boat at the marina,
and while it's obvious it was once a much loved boat, it is also
apparent that it's been neglected of late and needs a lot of tender
loving care. Would you be open to exploring the possibility of selling
it? Then sending the letters to the owners. You probably won't be able
to get their addresses from the harbor masters, but I was usually able
to persuade them to accept the letter stamped and unsealed so they can
see what you're sending and address them, protecting the privacy of the
owner.

Some of these boats are just sitting there because a husband died, or
there have been health problems or whatever. They sit there for years
partially because there is still an emotional bond to the boat, but
largely because the task of getting things organized enough to get the
boat cleaned up and selling it is just more of a task than the owner can
handle. Tug at their heartstrings a little, putting it so that the
thought of another young family taking care of and loving their old boat
comes across in an undertone. At the same time, you're removing all of
the perceived effort of selling it.

One advantage of doing it this way is that the owner often will have no
idea what the actual resale value of the boat is. All they know is what
they paid for it a very long time ago and that it's in pretty poor shape
now (especially if you include a photo). Sometimes this works against
you as they have unrealisticly high expectations, but sometimes, they
have way under valued the boat in their minds. You can take advantage
of this. Don't make an offer, but once contact is made, gently ask them
what kind of an offer they would need. Then whatever they say, look
strained and explain that that's really more thn you could manage, ...
you get the idea.

Note that this is something of a numbers game. The more owners you can
get a response from, the more likely it is that you'll find one that is
willing to part with their boat for what you can afford.

Of course, now that I've posted this idea on the internet, I'll never be
able to use it again as these guys (and the harbor masters) will be
inundated by people like you. Fortunately, I expect to keep the boat
I've got now for a very long time.

Do not forget to figure into your budget the costs of boat ownership.
They are ALWAYS much higher that you expect.

Good luck! Dan

Jim said:
What kind of boat are you looking at?
Be VERY careful. A cheap boat can be the most expensive kind.



Stephen Trapani wrote:
...My problem is my budget, which
is about $8K for a *working* cruiser/weekender.
...
there's this guy who is an acquaintance of a friend of mine who
...thinks he can get
this beautiful sloop, bigger and with a much better reputation than the
Catalina 30,' for within my budget.

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Hey, thanks for the answer. Interesting idea. I have a couple questions:


Dan Best wrote:

[...]
date. Then write letters to the owners that basically state the truth.
[...]
Some of these boats are just sitting there because a husband died, or


One advantage of doing it this way is that the owner often will have no
idea what the actual resale value of the boat is.
[..]
You can take advantage
of this.[...]

Do not forget to figure into your budget the costs of boat ownership.
They are ALWAYS much higher that you expect.

Good luck! Dan

I think I may try your scheme! So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Dan,
Good advice.
Paul

"Dan Best" wrote in message
news:dvP8c.10475$K91.40455@attbi_s02...
Hi Stephan,
I hope I won't come across as some kind of mercenary, looking to cheat
some old widow, because while it may be possible, that's not what I'm
advocating. I think it is possible to approach this with an attitude
that fosters both sides coming out ahead.

You're looking for the boat that in the past, was well taken care of,
but for some reason in now no longer used or maintained. To bring it
into a condition where it presents well so it can be sold requires
either money, time and effort or LOTS of money. Far more than the boat
is worth if you have to hire it done. The boat you're looking for has
been sitting in it's slip unused and unvisited. Every month, the owner
has to pay that slip rent. Over the course of a few years, that really
adds up. You'll be saving them that and at the same time giving them
the satisfaction of knowing their their old boat will again be loved and
cared for.

What you should be looking for are not boats that have been trashed (as
many/most in the auctions are), but rather boats that have been
neglected. There's a real difference here. Fiber glass boats,
expecially of the Hunter/Catalina type that have very little exposed
wood can often sit neglected and unused for years, then brought back to
a usable state without a huge $$$ investment. Especially if the sails
have been stored inside instead of out where the sun can get at them.
On the other hand, a boat that has been abondoned will usually have had
anything of value sold off first - sails, instruments, etc..

The Pacific NW is a good region for this kind of search. You don't have
the intense sun we do in Calif. (UV eventually destroys all kinds of
things), yet it doesn't get so cold you have to haul the boat every year.

I get the impression, that this will be the first large boat you've
owned. You might condsider something slightly smaller than the 33.
Perhaps something in the 27' - 30' range. I can vouch for the fact that
you can do some serious coastal cruising in these. The longest trip my
wife, 2 kids (12 & 13 at the time) and I took our Catalina 30 on was
from SF Bay down around Baja and up into the Sea of Cortez. Now, we had
no hot water, no pressurized water for that matter, no SSB or
refrigeration. None of a lot of what our current boat has. But we did
have grand times with her.
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/sc-600-400.JPG

You'll also find that the cost of owning a boat (ignoring the original
purchase cost) goes up amazingly quickly with the size of the boat. If
you wind up with one of the very common production boats, finding used
stuff in good shape is lots easier. For instance, as I recall, I paid
$100 for the genoa in the above picture. It came off of another
Catalina 30 and just wasn't "competetive" any more (some racers actually
buy new sails even when their old ones are perfectly servicable). The
chances of my finding another Tayana 37 owner in a yacht club bar who
just bought a new genoa and will give me his old one for a token payment
are pretty slim. Case in point: I just bought a used asym. spinnaker
for the Tayana. If you ignore slip fees, it cost me as much as I would
have spent on the Catalina in a year (and I got a good deal on it).

Your plan should be something like this:
- Identify a potential boat.
- Establish contact with the owner.
- Meet the owner in person if possible (take your wife along) and talk
about the boat. Learn about it's history. Let them tell you about all
the good times they had with it and try to get permission to board the
boat to examine it more closely.
- Go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You are doing your own
survey here. If you know someone who's knowlegable about boat
maintenance and who's opinion you respect, get him/her to go over it
with you. If you're lucky, the sails are still in good shape (this can
be a major expense). You should probably plan on replacing the
standing rigging. Get a price on a new set. Another advantage of a
common production boat is that the rigging shops can just make up a set
of wires without having to go out and actually measure everything. You
can then install them yourself.
- Meet in person with the owner again. Explain how you wish it could be
more, but would they possibly consider $x,xxx for the boat.
- Cross your fingers.

As I said in my original post, this is somewhat of a numbers game.
Pursue enough boats and eventually you'll find the owner willing to give
it away for what you're able to pay.

You'll notice I did not include a survey in the steps above. A lot of
people will fault me for this, but in this price range, it's my feeling
that the cost of a survey is not worth it. You're not gonna get them to
drop the price because you found X, Y or Z in the survey. It's just not
that kind of a negotiation. That's why you have to do you're own
survey. Besides, the whole image you're trying to project here is one
of a neophyte. If you bring in a surveyor, a lawyer to do your contract
negotiations, etc. you've blown your presentation. Unless you've
really goofed your inspections, the worst case you're exposing yourself
to is a slight loss after cleaning her up and reselling her. In the
best case, you acquire a real diamond in the rough that with a little
effort and minimal investment you'll get years of enjoyment out of.

Also, one advantage of this approach is that at an auction, you're not
going to be the only one bidding. There will be others that know a
WHOLE lot more than you looking at those auction boats. If they are
really worth something, you'll be bidding against them. Done my way,
you are the only one making an offer.


Good luck - Dan

Stephen Trapani wrote:
So I presume by this that you think I can
do even *better* than, say, $8K for a, say Hunter 33,' using my other
scheme? How much better do you think I can do?

Don't I still have the problem as my other scheme, namely that during
all my negotiation I don't know how good of condition the boat is in and
how much help in needs? I still have the whole deal contingent upon a
survey at the end no matter what, so I don't get burned too badly, so it
seems the main issue is how good I might be able to do your way,
compared to this other deal. Or am I missing something?

Stephen

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran
....snip...
Is this too good to be true?

Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

I don't remember if you gave any history in your original post. Have
you considered simply chartering? When you take that initial $multi-K
investment, then add on everything you hafta add on to own a boat year
'round, like marina fees, insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc. Well,
it just might be more economically realistic to charter or join a
sailing club and do a time-share kinda deal. There are lots of those
around Puget Sound.

What type of boat is this repo/lien/auction thingy?

Frank (in Everett)

Frank Maier wrote:

Stephen Trapani wrote:

Okay, after getting advice here, I'm the guy who wouldn't go $8500 for a
'68 Newport 30,' and after seeing the Piver and hearing the warnings,
ran

...snip...

Is this too good to be true?


Stephen,

You seem like a smart guy and you're a fellow Northwesterner, so I
hate to rain on your parade. We get enough of that here as it is.
But...

Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right? The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

I don't remember if you gave any history in your original post. Have
you considered simply chartering? When you take that initial $multi-K
investment, then add on everything you hafta add on to own a boat year
'round, like marina fees,

I have property on the Puget Sound, on a little bay, I'm planning to put
in a buoy, or actually, have one put in professionally. It's in the budget.

insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?
Meanwhile I can have fun sailing and cruising around the massive
shoreline that is Puget Sound with my family. Even if it needs a few
thousand for a new motor and a few thousand for new sails, I can put my
elbow grease into it, etc, and have it worth more in five years or so,
if I want to move up in boats, or if I want to get out of boats altogether.

Well,
it just might be more economically realistic to charter or join a
sailing club and do a time-share kinda deal. There are lots of those
around Puget Sound.

I have the money sitting there, waiting to become a boat.


What type of boat is this repo/lien/auction thingy?

A Hunter, over 30,' don't know the year yet.

Stephen

Frank Maier wrote:
Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."
Obviously I have zero personal knowledge about any of the specifics
you're looking at. It's possible you could get the deal of the
century. IMO, it's more likely you're gonna get an education in
economics.

And generally, this kind of lesson is something that you already knew
but were hoping for an exception this one time....


Stephen Trapani wrote:
Do you know about Marina auctions? I mean, there's no one there trying
to cheat you, it's a randomly impounded boat, it could easily be great,
right?

Yes, it *could* but the odds are much greater that the boat is of
negative value and is being auctioned to save the lien holder the price
of stripping it & cutting it up for the landfill.


... The marinas dump these boats to get back their lost moorage
money. Aren't these marina auctions common? Are they the best kept
secret in boating or something? What, my luck I finally stumbled on that
gold mine I've been dreaming of all my life?!!! ;-)

I can only say that I have not heard of them, as a regular practice. I
know of several boatyards that park old unwanted boats in a tight pile
at a far corner, and that these boats are generally not worth taking for
free. Almost all sailing clubs have rules that boats must have current
registration, but such rules are rarely enforced and most sailing clubs
have a bone yard of badly neglected never-sailors.

Sometimes marinas get sheriff's papers on boats they really want to
dump, but this is somewhat of a last resort AFAIK and these boats will
always have a cloudy title *as well as* being fit for the scrap yard. I
have known several people over the years to pick up boats like this, but
it always cost them many times more than they figured and lots more time
to actually get them in sailing order. Always.

What you might do is take Dan Best's advice and scavenge around all the
marinas and sailing clubs and try to pick up a boat that is still worth
having from the fringes of these ghost fleets.

It's painful to want a boat, to want to go sailing, so badly and see so
many boats just sitting unused.


Again, my nutty idea: If I get the right boat at the right price, like a
neglected, quality boat with some age, that has value, I'll get my money
back from maintenance and repairs won't I?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (cough cough)... dang I needed that.

Stephen, if you spend a lot of time & money keeping your boat in really
good shape, you will get back some of your money in the form of selling
it in the higher range of going prices. That could be anything! You will
get back some tiny fraction of upgrades & equipment, but you will never
get back a penny of regular maintenance. And not even the lowliest
cleaning materials aren't free.


I have the money sitting there, waiting to become a boat.


My advice... invest in a no-load index fund, join a local sailing club,
buy a tent and a sailing dinghy (preferably a racing class). You'll gain
a lot of experience, get a chance to share it with your family, AND
you'll still have the money. Best of all worlds! Then you will have a
chance to get a bigger better boat than you can afford now, and your
family will fit into the dream instead of standing outside wondering why
you've suddenly gone crazy.

I hope this doesn't sound negative, I'm really trying to help!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"If I get the right boat at the right price, like a neglected, quality boat
with some age, that has value, I'll get my money back from maintenance and
repairs won't I? or a good chunk of it?"

No.