I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

wrote in message
...
I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

It depends upon how the external lead or cast iron keel is attached. Some
are good and some are not so good.

Here is an example of the good. Consider the world famous Capt. Neal's blue
water Coronado 27, for example. It has an external, bolted-on, cast iron
keel but it has an added feature few or no other sailboats seem to have -
there is a large rectangular keel flange on the top of the keel that fits
tightly into a same-shape cassette in the bottom of the boat. The entire
keel at the factory was covered with several layers of epoxy resin to seal
out moisture, the top part that fits into the cassette was covered with
marine epoxy glue and bolted down tightly to the hull. The excess epoxy that
oozed out was ground away and faired. Even if the keel bolts rusted
completely away the keel is effectively part of the hull being epoxied into
the cassette. And, a hard grounding will not tend to tear the keel off the
hull.

The main problem I see with built in keels with internal ballast is if one
runs them aground hard they can hole and fill with water. This is impossible
to fix without hauling the boat.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Jun 8, 1:06 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

It depends upon how the external lead or cast iron keel is attached. Some
are good and some are not so good.

Here is an example of the good. Consider the world famous Capt. Neal's blue
water Coronado 27, for example. It has an external, bolted-on, cast iron
keel but it has an added feature few or no other sailboats seem to have -
there is a large rectangular keel flange on the top of the keel that fits
tightly into a same-shape cassette in the bottom of the boat. The entire
keel at the factory was covered with several layers of epoxy resin to seal
out moisture, the top part that fits into the cassette was covered with
marine epoxy glue and bolted down tightly to the hull. The excess epoxy that
oozed out was ground away and faired. Even if the keel bolts rusted
completely away the keel is effectively part of the hull being epoxied into
the cassette. And, a hard grounding will not tend to tear the keel off the
hull.

The main problem I see with built in keels with internal ballast is if one
runs them aground hard they can hole and fill with water. This is impossible
to fix without hauling the boat.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Jun 8, 1:06 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

It depends upon how the external lead or cast iron keel is attached. Some
are good and some are not so good.

Here is an example of the good. Consider the world famous Capt. Neal's blue
water Coronado 27, for example. It has an external, bolted-on, cast iron
keel but it has an added feature few or no other sailboats seem to have -
there is a large rectangular keel flange on the top of the keel that fits
tightly into a same-shape cassette in the bottom of the boat. The entire
keel at the factory was covered with several layers of epoxy resin to seal
out moisture, the top part that fits into the cassette was covered with
marine epoxy glue and bolted down tightly to the hull. The excess epoxy that
oozed out was ground away and faired. Even if the keel bolts rusted
completely away the keel is effectively part of the hull being epoxied into
the cassette. And, a hard grounding will not tend to tear the keel off the
hull.

The main problem I see with built in keels with internal ballast is if one
runs them aground hard they can hole and fill with water. This is impossible
to fix without hauling the boat.

Wilbur Hubbard

Of course, an external keeled boat can also get a hole in it where it
is difficult to reach. Any hole around the internal lead will
necesarily be very small because the object would be trying to
penetrate solid lead. This seems to me to be far less likely than
problems with an external keel and I would say that statistics prove
me right.

On 2008-06-08 13:06:28 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Consider the world famous Capt. Neal's blue water Coronado 27, for
example. It has an external, bolted-on, cast iron keel but it has an
added feature few or no other sailboats seem to have - there is a large
rectangular keel flange on the top of the keel that fits tightly into a
same-shape cassette in the bottom of the boat. The entire keel at the
factory was covered with several layers of epoxy resin to seal out
moisture, the top part that fits into the cassette was covered with
marine epoxy glue and bolted down tightly to the hull. The excess epoxy
that oozed out was ground away and faired. Even if the keel bolts
rusted completely away the keel is effectively part of the hull being
epoxied into the cassette. And, a hard grounding will not tend to tear
the keel off the hull.

An alternative that I prefer holds Xan's keel on, the 1972 version of
5200. Some Tanzers have tried to drop their keel and found that the
caulk was very tenacious. No bolts, but the danged thing still wouldn't
drop off without extreme persuasion.

The problem with epoxy is that it has little flex, so the difference in
expansion/contraction between the metal keel and fiberglass hull will
create a break over the decades.

We also got barrier-coated 16 seasons back. Worked pretty well for most
of that time, but it's now pretty much failed. As someone else
mentioned, I wish I'd had a resource such as this back then. Epoxy and
barrier-coating are not water PROOF, but strongly water-resistant.
Where water wants to go, it will reach eventually. Rust will follow
unless the steel/iron has been properly protected.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

wrote:
I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

My mostly second hand experiance with encapsulated keels has been that
the problems are on the maintenance side. There was a publicized case
of a 40 footer that ran hard aground in rocks in Woods Hole while being
singlehanded (not an uncommon happening). Although the CG got it off
the rocks quickly, and from the outside it looked OK, the encapsulated
keel was "bent" and it ended up being totaled. If it was just a dinged
external keel it could be repaired.

Of course, its much safer just to go without ballast!

No Wilber, it isn't a risk the way I did it. I built a NACA shaped fin with
3 compartments in steel. I then cast the lead into 4x2x8" ingots and loaded
the compartments layer by layer, beating lead shavings in between with a big
hammer to the load schedule from the architect. After the ballast was loaded
for each compartment, a capping plate was made and welded over the ballast
with two pipe plugs for pressure filling the remaining voids with cooking
oil.
Steve


wrote in message
...
On Jun 8, 1:06 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

I hear disparaging stuff about encapsulated keels but all the
accidents seem to happen to external keels. My 8.5 M S2 has an
internal lead keel so I never have given any thought to keel bolts and
such. Keel bolts on an older boat would scare me silly. I'd probably
rather sail a multihull on a long trip than an external keel boat.
I sail in the seriously shallow NE Gulf of Mexico and run aground
regularly. If I had an external keel, this would be a serious issue.

It depends upon how the external lead or cast iron keel is attached. Some
are good and some are not so good.

Here is an example of the good. Consider the world famous Capt. Neal's
blue
water Coronado 27, for example. It has an external, bolted-on, cast iron
keel but it has an added feature few or no other sailboats seem to have -
there is a large rectangular keel flange on the top of the keel that fits
tightly into a same-shape cassette in the bottom of the boat. The entire
keel at the factory was covered with several layers of epoxy resin to
seal
out moisture, the top part that fits into the cassette was covered with
marine epoxy glue and bolted down tightly to the hull. The excess epoxy
that
oozed out was ground away and faired. Even if the keel bolts rusted
completely away the keel is effectively part of the hull being epoxied
into
the cassette. And, a hard grounding will not tend to tear the keel off
the
hull.

The main problem I see with built in keels with internal ballast is if
one
runs them aground hard they can hole and fill with water. This is
impossible
to fix without hauling the boat.

Wilbur Hubbard