No Flame War here
 

On 29 Mar 2004 14:35:55 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

My mother, good Southern girl that she was (God rest her soul!),
always used to say, "You can't hear with your mouth open."

Sensible woman who apparently encouraged young Frank's Latin lessons.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Frank Maier wrote:

I gave my standard diatribe about rigs in response to your
response... So, jump over there for several paragraphs of
my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

Yes Frank, I saw it! Thanks for the worthwhile post!

On another thread buried deep in Usenet, Frank Maier wrote:

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting
his money's worth out of this one.

Yes indeed... the thread got off to a rocky start it picked up steam
along the way and many people offered lots of great advice! Thanks to
all that participated.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



(Frank Maier) wrote in message . com...
(Bob Whitaker) wrote:
...snip...
You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

We're starting to get too many subthreads for me to follow. I gave my
standard diatribe about rigs in response to your response to DSK,
where you ask that as a P.S. So, jump over there for several
paragraphs of my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

I believe that up through the 60s ~ early 70s, survival methods tended
to favor passive styles, e.g. lying a-hull. My interpretation of what
I've read about tactics since then (including Coles et al.) and my
personal experience favors active methods, e.g running off. But as I
said, everything has worked, and also failed to work, for different
people in different circumstances; so I think you'd be hard pressed to
definitively defend any given style of dealing with bad conditions.
Someone can always point to an exception and say, "But what about ..."
Me, I'd say that any opinion opposite mine is a case of abusus non
tollit usum; but I'll bet that those who oppose my positions would say
that *I'm* arguing abusus...

To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.

Frank

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

Frank Maier wrote:

I gave my standard diatribe about rigs in response to your
response... So, jump over there for several paragraphs of
my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

Yes Frank, I saw it! Thanks for the worthwhile post!

On another thread buried deep in Usenet, Frank Maier wrote:

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting
his money's worth out of this one.

Yes indeed... the thread got off to a rocky start it picked up steam
along the way and many people offered lots of great advice! Thanks to
all that participated.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



(Frank Maier) wrote in message . com...
(Bob Whitaker) wrote:
...snip...
You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

We're starting to get too many subthreads for me to follow. I gave my
standard diatribe about rigs in response to your response to DSK,
where you ask that as a P.S. So, jump over there for several
paragraphs of my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

I believe that up through the 60s ~ early 70s, survival methods tended
to favor passive styles, e.g. lying a-hull. My interpretation of what
I've read about tactics since then (including Coles et al.) and my
personal experience favors active methods, e.g running off. But as I
said, everything has worked, and also failed to work, for different
people in different circumstances; so I think you'd be hard pressed to
definitively defend any given style of dealing with bad conditions.
Someone can always point to an exception and say, "But what about ..."
Me, I'd say that any opinion opposite mine is a case of abusus non
tollit usum; but I'll bet that those who oppose my positions would say
that *I'm* arguing abusus...

To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.

Frank

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

rhys wrote:

How about a Bruce Roberts design?

Hello rhys,

I've seen them advertised, but never sailed one. I always thought they
would be sturdy, but they wouldn't win too many speed awards... but
that's just my completely unfounded bias. Does anybody else have any
actual sailing experience with a Bruce Roberts design? Maybe this
question deserves a new thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


rhys wrote in message . ..
On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

Best 34 foot blue water cruiser
 

rhys wrote:

How about a Bruce Roberts design?

Hello rhys,

I've seen them advertised, but never sailed one. I always thought they
would be sturdy, but they wouldn't win too many speed awards... but
that's just my completely unfounded bias. Does anybody else have any
actual sailing experience with a Bruce Roberts design? Maybe this
question deserves a new thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


rhys wrote in message . ..
On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.