How many DC amps is too much
 

It is interesting to know how other boaters are selecting equipment
and managing electrical power on cruising sailboats. Standard
production sailboats rarely have onboard DC power grids to support
additional electrical loads. Most extended cruisers and live aboard
boaters prefer to have conveniences like refrigeration microwave
ovens, computers and creature comfort items. There must be a limit to
how much daily electrical load that can be supported on a pleasure
size extended cruising sailboat, but what is this limit? I believe
that an average cruising boat's DC power consumption when at anchor
might be at least 50 amp-hrs per day. If equipped with refrigerator
add 10 amp-hours per cu. ft. of box per day. If additional 110 volt
appliances are powered from an inverter the total power grid will be
overstressed unless energy is generated from other than the a engine
alternator.

Here are some actual examples of cruising boats and how they managed
their DC power grid.
1. Twenty seven ft sailboat two people onboard with one cylinder
diesel crossed from England to Bahamas with no electrical system.
Navagation lights powered by Diesel fuel flame three gallons total use
of diesel in 27 days
2. Catalina 27 with two group 27 batteries 30 amp alternator on first
cruise after installing refrigeration unit batteries dead after two
days had to get a jump start from another boat. This problem was
repeated each time boat was used. Running engine several hours a day
did not solve this energy deficiency.
3. Thirty ft. sailboat two cylinder Yanmar engine with 60 amp
alternator and 4 gulf cart batteries spends 6 weeks to 3 months each
summer in Bahamas. Boat has standard basic electrical lights, VHF, and
Adler Barbour refrigeration. With the help of two 80 watt solar panels
mounted on top of Bimini engine only needs to be run every other day
to recharge batteries.
4. Forty four ft sailboat world cruiser on trip from Ft Lauderdale to
South Pacific. Boat equipped with both engine driven and 12 volt AB
refrigeration systems were connected to large holding plate in
refrigerator. I received a post card stating on 31 continuous days of
sailing the wind generator supplied all power needed to charge
batteries and operate refrigeration.
5. Local 36 ft sailboat with refrigeration tested in my book completed
circle trip to England with wind generator supplying all energy needed
on trip east bound, than lost generator overboard in English Channel
during storm.
6. One of the best truly live aboard boats I have worked with is a 60
ft plus two mast sailboat with very large refrigerator and separate
freezer. There is an engine driven refrigeration system freezing
seven holding plated when motoring. There are two air cooled 12 volt
refrigeration units maintaining box temperatures when boat is at
anchor which is most of the time. There are several energy sources to
support this boats DC power grid, two wind generators, solar panels,
prop shaft alternator and engine alternator.
7. My own 32 ft Watkins sailboat consumes around 70 to 100 amp-hr per
day when anchored out in summer tropical weather. I have a number of
110 volt fans running off an inverter and Yes I have Hybrid
refrigeration Engine driven refrigeration and 12 volt system freezing
three holding plates. I run the engine one hour per day to support my
energy needs consuming about 1/3 of a gallon of fuel. If you want to
see how my boat is equipped it is described on my web site at
http://kollmann-marine.com/Loreli.htm
8. If you are following Skip's Morgan 46 adventures on Flying Pig you
know his plan was to support all his electrical and refrigeration
needs including heating water with 12 volt energy. Skip removed the
engine driven refrigeration system replaced it with a 12 volt
Frigoboat unit. The large generator was removed providing room for a
battery bank. We are still not sure what his actual daily power needs
are but he seems to be managing his energy budget by trimming down the
load and running a small Honda generator when wind and solar power is
not enough. One good piece of information Skip provided if I
understand him correctly is the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:37:30 -0700 (PDT), Richard Kollmann
wrote:

It is interesting to know how other boaters are selecting equipment
and managing electrical power on cruising sailboats.

If you have a generator and/or heavy duty alternator, skys the limit.
On our trawler we power a small apartment style fridge from a sine
wave inverter that runs all the time. The inverter also powers
computers, some high efficiency lighting, and in cold weather an
electric blanket. The inverter has a dedicated 440 A-H house bank
which gets recharged either from the engine alternators or one of the
generators. Daily DC usage is probably around 400 amp-hours per day.
Generator time averages 3 to 4 hours per day at anchor, less when
underway. The generators provide power for the 110V holding plate
compressors on the big fridges and freezer, as well as cooking and
battery charging. Underway we can run one holding plate compressor at
a time from the inverter and engine alternators.

How many DC amps is too much
 

Richard Kollmann wrote:
understand him correctly is the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.

Are you sure, 6 gal/hr? I have a 6Kw Yamaha that uses 6 gallons in
eight hours at 50% load.

Cheers
Marty

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Mar 21, 4:37 pm, Richard Kollmann
wrote:
It is interesting to know how other boaters are selecting equipment
and managing electrical power on cruising sailboats.

Yes it is interesting. One of the key subjects IMHO

..... the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.

Your genset is doing something wrong then. We have a 3500 watt diesel
genset that burns about 0.6 gallons/hour when powering our 60 amp
charger plus a few incidental household services. Burning 6gph should
produce about 90 hp, far far more than it takes to pump out 3.5kw !

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

How many DC amps is too much
 

Richard Kollmann wrote in news:f9707399-b61d-
:

One good piece of information Skip provided if I
understand him correctly is the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.


On:
http://www.hayesequipment.com/eu2000i.htm

# Weight: 46.3 lbs. Dry
# tank size: 1.0 gallons
# Run time: 15.0/4.0 hrs. (1/4 load & Rated load)

15 hours on 1.1 gallons at 500 watts might be stretching reality a bit, but
it's not far off. I own EU1000i and EU3000is. The 1000 is uncanny. Its
carb looks like a model airplane carb, except for the float bowl of course.
The size is tiny! The venturi in it is really tiny....

40A at 14.2V = 568 watts plus some charger in efficiency so that would be
around 600 to 650 watts so Skip's observations are very close. The unit
will run in economode up to about 1100 watts before the engine starts to
throttle up for more magnets/second to supercharge the flywheel multiphase
alternator that drives the electronic power supply.

The EU3000is is a much better, longer running unit that only turns 1200 RPM
up to about 1800 watts, hardly breathes hard at a kilowatt, but it's NOT
TRANSPORTABLE by any stretch of the imagination. Its cabinetry is steel
with a 3.5 gallon steel tank on top, not plastic like the little ones.

Too bad someone doesn't make a nautical quiet cabinet to put the 3KW in
over the stern to reduce CO hazards. I run two 8000 Btu Korean A/C window
units off it all summer. 3 gallons with that load and my shop loads runs
about 2.5 eight hour workdays....making the truck bearable in the hot SC
sun.

How many DC amps is too much
 

Marty wrote:
Richard Kollmann wrote:
understand him correctly is the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.

Are you sure, 6 gal/hr? I have a 6Kw Yamaha that uses 6 gallons in
eight hours at 50% load.

Gotta be a typo.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Mar 21, 12:37*pm, Richard Kollmann
wrote:

It is interesting to know how other boaters are selecting equipment
and managing electrical power on cruising sailboats.

If you are following Skip's Morgan 46 adventures on Flying Pig you
know his plan was to support all his electrical and refrigeration
needs including.................

We are still not sure what his actual daily power needs
are but.....



After one of SKips mega watt audit posts i asked a simple question he
neglected to include in his "audit."
the qustion was, how many AH are you using daily?

Later her replyed with "...about 110 AH/day...."

I think your comment is most likely the most
accurate....................... "uh, IDK."

But my god, with all i read here i truely glad i dont have some
complex mega multiple FUBAR electetric systems stuffed on a small
sailboat jsut so I can blend ice for my wife after she blow drys her
hair........

Sombody said it simple. get two batteries and a BIG genset. End of
story and quit foolin around if your damn bent on living a surburban
life style on a boat. O, but the genset is tooo noise for my
guests..... So.

Bob

How many DC amps is too much
 

On 2008-03-21 16:37:30 -0400, Richard Kollmann
said:

Here are some actual examples of cruising boats and how they managed
their DC power grid.

Add to your list our 28' mostly-weekender with an icebox and mostly LED
lighting. Twin group 31s (soon to be upgraded) charged by a 12 watt
solar cell.

Total fuel usage in about 120 days away from the dock and a couple of
thousand miles: about 15 gallons, as the solar cell supplies almost all
our needs. We motor primarily to move, rarely to charge, and we're
rarely in a hurry.

But we consume mass quantities of ice, about a 10# block of ice every
couple of days during a Chesapeake summer. Cubes go faster, but their
primary purpose is to cool my Admiral's drinks.

Would love to have a fridge, Kollmann is definitely in the running, but
we can buy quite a few years' supply of ice for the upfront cost and
backside power requirements.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:00:32 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

But we consume mass quantities of ice, about a 10# block of ice every
couple of days during a Chesapeake summer. Cubes go faster, but their
primary purpose is to cool my Admiral's drinks.

Once you have a good fridge you will *never* go back to buying ice.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On 2008-03-22 00:17:17 -0400, Wayne.B said:

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:00:32 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

But we consume mass quantities of ice, about a 10# block of ice every
couple of days during a Chesapeake summer. Cubes go faster, but their
primary purpose is to cool my Admiral's drinks.

Once you have a good fridge you will *never* go back to buying ice.

Understood.

That's most of the reason we haven't much explored the option. So far,
the power requirements have been sufficient to drop the subject. We
don't have a cell phone for even less reason.

When we're on Xan, we are connected only as we wish.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 06:15:07 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

A good diesel mechanic up here told me the first question he asks
when a sailboat owner says they are having trouble with their diesel is, "Do
you have refrigeration?" Unless they have a separate generator, he knows
right where to start looking for the problem.

Why is that? Too much time at idle to charge batteries? If so, they
need a bigger alternator and/or larger battery bank.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Mar 21, 4:37 pm, Richard Kollmann
wrote:
It is interesting to know how other boaters are selecting equipment
and managing electrical power on cruising sailboats. Standard
production sailboats rarely have onboard DC power grids to support
additional electrical loads. Most extended cruisers and live aboard
boaters prefer to have conveniences like refrigeration microwave
ovens, computers and creature comfort items. There must be a limit to
how much daily electrical load that can be supported on a pleasure
size extended cruising sailboat, but what is this limit? I believe
that an average cruising boat's DC power consumption when at anchor
might be at least 50 amp-hrs per day. If equipped with refrigerator
add 10 amp-hours per cu. ft. of box per day. If additional 110 volt
appliances are powered from an inverter the total power grid will be
overstressed unless energy is generated from other than the a engine
alternator.
(clip)

If you are following Skip's Morgan 46 adventures on Flying Pig you
know his plan was to support all his electrical and refrigeration
needs including heating water with 12 volt energy. Skip removed the
engine driven refrigeration system replaced it with a 12 volt
Frigoboat unit. The large generator was removed providing room for a
battery bank. We are still not sure what his actual daily power needs
are but he seems to be managing his energy budget by trimming down the
load and running a small Honda generator when wind and solar power is
not enough. One good piece of information Skip provided if I
understand him correctly is the Hondo 2000 powering a 40 amp DC output
charger can rum 6 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas. I have a 3000 watt
generator that consumes 6 gallons per hour.

Hi, Guys,

Larry's observations about my genset are accurate. I don't know where
you got my consumption figures, Richard, as I thought I'd indicated
that my typical run was ~6 hours per tank when charging and doing
other miscellaneous stuff. That's vs, for example, heating the hot
water tank, which I would never ask the inverter to do, a full-
throttle run, but only for about 15 minutes of the time in a recharge
cycle. The normal recharging run has all the "normal" inverter (no
mikey, no heat gun, no hair dryer) items like computers, handheld and
"dry cell-type" battery recharging, etc., at the same time as
recharging the house; the water heater is typically reheated at the
same time, but the charger turned off for that period.

OTOH, if we forget to turn off the charger, the combined loads is more
than the Honda can handle, and the overload kicks it off. That is, no
power is delivered; the engine continues to idle. The cure is to
cycle the on-off handle until the red light goes out and turn it back
to "on" where it kicks in again. So far, we're very happy with it. It
and the dedicated fuel can live in the cockpit, under Sunbrella
covers, and right next to the scupper drain in the event of leak or
fumes, in a space which might well have been designed for it, the
fit's so good :{))

Meanwhile, I've been wondering if you have some easy, inexpensive,
means of actually tracking the AH usage, both for the reefer and as a
whole. The TriMetric may have such a function overall, but I don't
really know how to separate it on a daily or timed-period basis, and,
of course, not for the reefer. It would also be interesting, but not
something I think I need to have on a permanent basis, to know the
number of cycles the reefer compressor has per day. Ideas on all
that?

Finally, because of the above, I really don't have hard numbers on the
usage, but the individual loads were carefully measured (or as
carefully as a nothing-else-running measure with the decimal amps
readout of the TriMetric) per device, so I'm pretty confident in the
numbers I presented, and in the time of usage per device. If I'm
reasonably accurate in those, the AH daily use should be pretty close.

For all that, as noted, in sunny and breezy conditions, we are fully
supplied for our usage. So far, the Honda supplement has proven
acceptable, though I'd far rather not have to use it other than for my
Hookah rig or other high demand tool-style times. Certainly, though,
offsetting that, I don't believe I want to run 1500 watts for even 15
minutes from the inverter - unless it's blazing and howling outside! :
{)) - to make hot water, so, for passages, it appears we'll be using
that at least occasionally.

Thanks for any pointers to gear for measurement...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:19:58 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

With a small engine like mine and modest electric loads otherwise, wouldn't
it me more efficient to put the largest compressor that a toothed belt pully
and engine PTO limitations would permit on the front end of the engine?
Then have a large cold plate in the box and draw it down as quickly as
possible keeping the engine under maximum load. It wouldn't give you the
fine temperature control of a constantly running 12 V. fridge system but
would be as good as ice. Drawing down the cold plate would be like buying
ice (and probably nearly as expensive at next year's fuel costs).

The conversion from fuel to electricity to charging and back to motive force
has got to use up more fuel than just running the compressor directly.

Most of the boats I see here use exactly that system. The more
up-market ones have a duel system with both engine driven and A.C.
powered compressors for use at sea and in the marina.

If you really want to get into it find a copy of Nigel Calder's book
on refrigeration systems (he is a fellow Mainiac. It is down to earth
and really teaches you how to build a system.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

How many DC amps is too much
 

Bob wrote in news:b6e6457e-43de-4228-9e7f-
:

but the genset is tooo noise for my
guests..... So.



That's a FEATURE not a problem....(c;

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

"Jere Lull" wrote

When we're on Xan, we are connected only as we wish.


That's the biggest reason I would like to install refrigeration, to be
a bit less connected to the shore for cold stuff.

You're right about the cost though and it isn't just the installation
and fuel. A good diesel mechanic up here told me the first question
he asks when a sailboat owner says they are having trouble with their
diesel is, "Do you have refrigeration?" Unless they have a separate
generator, he knows right where to start looking for the problem.

--
Roger Long





While we're talking fridges and power requirements, I'd like to describe
a 2.2 cu ft dorm fridge I bought a few years ago for a pittance at a
thrift shop, probably $10. It's seen hard dorm use. I replaced the
door gasket and repaired the plastic inside the door. It's a Norcold,
but I can't find any model plate, sorry.

What's neat about this little fridge is in the back....it's compressor.

Wrapped around the back of the fridge is a rather large, for its size,
condensor that is stood off the fridge so it doesn't heat the
case....you know...like the NEW fridges do...which is stupid. Between
this wrap-around condensor and the rear wall of the fridge is a steel
cylinder about 3" in diameter and 9" long sitting vertically. ONE wire
comes out of it and the steel case is the other conductor. This doesn't
matter because it runs on 40 VAC 50-60 Hz. The compressor gets this
voltage from a little transformer that is specific to the country
they're shipping the unit to. In our case, the transformer is 120VAC to
40VAC. In Europe they use the same compressor, just a 240VAC
transformer.....very logical.

This odd little compressor is not a motor at all! It's a solenoid
driving a single cylinder little pump. The AC makes the plunger in it
vibrate back and forth at 60 Hz, which is also the piston in the
pump...only ONE moving part! I suppose it has reed valves.

We'd not be allowed to build these, today...It uses R12 refridgerant
because R12 is the most efficient and lowest pressure, the reason they
used it for decades in cars before the Algores drove us crazy with the
lie of Global Warming caused by AMERICAN FREON, which was BS to raise
the price of freon from 60c/pound to $10/pound...another story
altogether. The Antarctic ozone hole is LARGER, now that we have
stopped the production of Freon 12, obviously not reported to an irate
nation, because it has nothing to do with it.

Now, using R12 low pressure refridgerant and this little plunger pump is
MOST impressive for use in a vehicle or boat! IT ONLY DRAWS 40 WATTS
WHEN IT'S RUNNING! To use it in the car on a trip, I plug it into a
tiny inverter from Radio Shack rated at 75 watts, built right into the
cigarette lighter plug. I'd bet the whole thing draws 42 watts ONLY
WHEN IT'S RUNNING, which, of course, depends on how much beer it's
cooling and how many times the door opens. there's room in its
"freezer", inside the evaporator sheet metal with a little door, for 2
trays of ice cubes and it will make ice in about 90 minutes. It will
also keep ice cream sandwiches frozen hard packed in there, too.

My calc shows this to be about 3A at 13.8VDC. If it ran wide open,
which it doesn't or we'd have frozen beer in a day, that's only 72AH in
24 hours. It's probably about 60% of that or 43AH per day.....which is
MUCH BETTER than a portable absorption fridge for the car which uses 4A
continuously and doesn't cool worth a damn.....

These fridges, if you are perusing thrift shops, are easy to spot. The
evaporator and beer-can-shaped cylindrical compressors stick out the
back because the compressor must be vertical, not horizontal, in
operation. This shape distinguishes it from the power hog motor
compressors that are squat and fat in most fridges.

It really does keep the beer COLD....for just a little power.....

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I think adjusting my life style and diet on long cruises may be a
better option. I'm going north where I won't miss cold stuff as much
as I would going south.



Where you live I think what you need is a cold box against the hull so you
can route frigid seawater through a coil of stainless pipes inside the box
with a simple scoop on the hull, underwater, pointed forward to catch the
water going by. Just aft of the scoop, in the trailing low pressure zone,
warmed water from the "fridge" would be released back into the sea,
unnoticed by the greenies fearing it would warm the ocean.

Except for 3 days in August, as I remember swimming in Maine, our problem
would be to keep the beer from freezing solid.

Make the box large with large cooling pipes all the way around the inside
of it. Surplus copper tubing with a zinc pencil would last your lifetime.

I'm from the Finger Lakes of upstate NY. Cold beer there just means
hanging the sixpack off the stern on a line hanging down during the
fishing. Because we'd come back with no beer, the same line can be used as
a fish stringer if the damned fish were biting....(c;

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:19:58 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The conversion from fuel to electricity to charging and back to motive force
has got to use up more fuel than just running the compressor directly.

That's true if your only requirement is refrigeration. Since I'm a
bit of an electrical junkie I'd probably opt for the big alternator if
I only had room for one or the other. It is possible to get high
output alternators in a small frame however. I have a pair of them on
my boat which are no bigger than the originals.

http://tinyurl.com/249bwl

or

http://tinyurl.com/ynr2l5

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

The conversion from fuel to electricity to charging and back to motive
force has got to use up more fuel than just running the compressor
directly.



It does. They need to power the pulley on the compressor from a pulley on
the POWER PLANT, not the propulsion engine....

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

One of the damndest things I ever saw in a museum was something called
a Shaker refrigerator. It was an insulated box with a slot in the
side. There were two metal balls, about the size of small soccer balls
made of what looked like zinc or galvanized steel with a pipe soldered
on connecting them at the top and separating the balls by about 18".
You put one of the balls in the fire and heated it up to nearly red
hot. After it cooled, you put that ball in the refirgerator and ice
formed on it for about 12 hours. Then, you took it out and put the
other ball in the fire, cooled it, and put it back in the box the
other way round.

I think the balls were filled with ammonia. I suppose you could make
one of these work by putting the ball in the BBQ grill over the
transom.

Clever people those Shakers. Shows how much mental energy is left
over when you aren't spending 18 hours a day trying to get into your
neighbor's wife:)

--
Roger Long





That's the Absorption Cycle. Go look how any RV refridgerator operates.
The freezing comes because Ammonia just LOVES water. When Ammonia
combines with water heat is absorbed. The gas burner (or electric
heater when the RV is plugged into the park) merely boils off the water
and ammonia to separate them so the cycle can repeat...simply by gravity
flow. There's no pump needed....just heat. I know someone with a
kerosene refridgerator that runs on a kerosene wick lamp. The lamp
heats the boiler, instead of a propane flame. It was a really old
fridge, probably of historic value.

UNfortunately, for sailors, this fridge needs to be LEVEL to operate
properly because it is a gravity-flow device. If the RV is tilted just
a couple of degrees off level...the fridge just stops. They also
sometimes become vapor locked by water being in the wrong place. The
solution to that is also quite simple. Remove the fridge from the
camper, turn it upside down and leave it that way overnight. Flip it
back over and reinstall and it works fine, again. I think this kind of
fridge would be fine if gimbal mounted. They cool just fine in a MOVING
motorhome roaring down the interstate using its 12V heating coil to save
propane. I had a big Dometic refridgerator-freezer in my last motorhome
that would do any sailboat proud. It ran off of 115VAC, 12VDC or
propane, your choice. It would run just as well off an alcohol flame to
keep the fumes out of the bilge. The gimbal mount would level it so it
would work while the boat was heeled over by the sails.

How many DC amps is too much
 

That was a Crosley Icyball refrigerator. A bit more complicated to use than
that. It was an absorption cycle device that you had to recycle manually
every morning. It had a little kerosene burner that kept the hot end
working.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the damndest things I ever saw in a museum was something called a
Shaker refrigerator. It was an insulated box with a slot in the side.
There were two metal balls, about the size of small soccer balls made of
what looked like zinc or galvanized steel with a pipe soldered on
connecting them at the top and separating the balls by about 18". You
put one of the balls in the fire and heated it up to nearly red hot.
After it cooled, you put that ball in the refirgerator and ice formed on
it for about 12 hours. Then, you took it out and put the other ball in the
fire, cooled it, and put it back in the box the other way round.

I think the balls were filled with ammonia. I suppose you could make one
of these work by putting the ball in the BBQ grill over the transom.

Clever people those Shakers. Shows how much mental energy is left over
when you aren't spending 18 hours a day trying to get into your neighbor's
wife:)

--
Roger Long

How many DC amps is too much
 

On 2008-03-22 06:15:07 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

"Jere Lull" wrote

When we're on Xan, we are connected only as we wish.

That's the biggest reason I would like to install refrigeration, to be
a bit less connected to the shore for cold stuff.

We've other reasons to go in for ice. The fresh water gets empty or the
holding tank gets full at about the same time.

Refrigeration certainly is a desirable feature, but we're enjoying the
simplicity of our systems. With less to break, we can enjoy the boat
more.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

How many DC amps is too much
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:19:58 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

With a small engine like mine and modest electric loads otherwise,
wouldn't it me more efficient to put the largest compressor that a
toothed belt pully and engine PTO limitations would permit on the
front end of the engine? Then have a large cold plate in the box and
draw it down as quickly as possible keeping the engine under maximum
load. It wouldn't give you the fine temperature control of a
constantly running 12 V. fridge system but would be as good as ice.
Drawing down the cold plate would be like buying ice (and probably
nearly as expensive at next year's fuel costs).

The conversion from fuel to electricity to charging and back to motive
force has got to use up more fuel than just running the compressor
directly.

Most of the boats I see here use exactly that system. The more
up-market ones have a duel system with both engine driven and A.C.
powered compressors for use at sea and in the marina.

If you really want to get into it find a copy of Nigel Calder's book
on refrigeration systems (he is a fellow Mainiac. It is down to earth
and really teaches you how to build a system.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

I used to have a dual-coil system and ripped it out because it had
terrible performance. It started out having both an engine drive
compressor and an AC compressor. I replaced the AC compressor with a DC
driven compressor (1/2 HP motor driving a Bitzer IIY compressor) which
is basically what Glacier Bay utilized.

I wasn't happy at all with the performance. I then realized that the
problem was with the dual coils in the cold plate. Imagine a cold plate
that's about 2" thick. The front half of the plate had coils cooled by
the engine compressor and the back half had coils cooled by the DC
compressor.

In order to freeze the entire plate, either compressor has to freeze the
eutectic solution in the other half of the plate where it doesn't have
coils. This leads to very long run times.

The engine drive system did a great job of freezing the plates, but that
was rarely used. I suppose that if I ran the engine to charge the
batteries, this would be acceptable, but I rely on wind/solar and a
generator when the first 2 don't produce enough.

I ripped out the engine drive system and combined the 2 coils into 1
loop and after a lot of fine tuning, got the system to where it utilizes
about 85 Ah in the Caribbean. I don't have the measurements here, but
this includes a 3 cf freezer with it's own plate that's kept at about 4F
and a 4-5 cf refrigerator that maintains 40F. The addition of
electronic controls was very important also as it allowed me to
precisely control the on/off set-points.

I also installed run hour meters on the both the refrigeration and
freezer sides of the system, so I can closely monitor the system for
performance issues. I log the results in a spreadsheet on a regular
basis to make sure that everything is working OK.

I extensively used the Calder book and to say that "It is down to earth
and really teaches you how to build a system." is being very kind. It
provides you with a lot of information and you really have to study it
and other sources to determine how you really design a system. It's a
much better debugging guide than a design guide.

I will also point out that Richard Kollmann, the OP, has 2 good books on
marine refrigeration. See http://www.kollmann-marine.com/

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

How many DC amps is too much
 

Actually, with the introduction of the higher powered and more efficient
Danfoss 50 and 80 compressors Nigel has seen the light and come over to the
DC evaporator side. He wrote a good article in Ocean Navigator a few months
back explaining the trade offs between constant cycling evaporators and
engine driven holding plate systems.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:19:58 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

With a small engine like mine and modest electric loads otherwise,
wouldn't
it me more efficient to put the largest compressor that a toothed belt
pully
and engine PTO limitations would permit on the front end of the engine?
Then have a large cold plate in the box and draw it down as quickly as
possible keeping the engine under maximum load. It wouldn't give you the
fine temperature control of a constantly running 12 V. fridge system but
would be as good as ice. Drawing down the cold plate would be like
buying
ice (and probably nearly as expensive at next year's fuel costs).

The conversion from fuel to electricity to charging and back to motive
force
has got to use up more fuel than just running the compressor directly.

Most of the boats I see here use exactly that system. The more
up-market ones have a duel system with both engine driven and A.C.
powered compressors for use at sea and in the marina.

If you really want to get into it find a copy of Nigel Calder's book
on refrigeration systems (he is a fellow Mainiac. It is down to earth
and really teaches you how to build a system.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

How many DC amps is too much
 

Post on equipment performance

For those persons who did not read the complete thread this is about
onboard energy. How many DC amp-hours per day is too many? If you
want a wide range response to a question about cruising boats and any
components performance ask your question on this cruisers Forum. I try
to follow all web posts relating to information about boat
refrigeration and equipment needed to support refrigeration. Most of
the time I am looking for factual quantified answers to questions. If
you have read this thread closely discounting opinions and theories
there may be valuable information you can use in making your own
decision about boat refrigeration.

Refrigeration on boats is expensive and is a luxury and is not
required by every boater.

If a boat is equipped 12 Volt refrigeration it will be the largest
consumer of electrical energy on a cruising sailboat.

How large of a refrigerator/freezer can a boat's DC electrical system
support without an onboard gen-set? I Believe 100 amp-hrs per day is
too much others seem to manage much higher DC usage, as much as 200
amp-hrs per day. Boats cruising with 12 volt refrigeration above
Latitude 36N in this country may consume 50% less energy for
refrigeration than those cruising south of 36N.

When electrical energy is not available 24 hours a day then holdover
plates can be used to store energy.

If refrigerated boxes are too large to be supported from electrical
energy then engine driven compressor refrigeration or a gen-set power
would be the answer.

Info quotes from Forums:

I don't have any experience with the 2000, but have found the Honda
specs to be pretty accurate with the 1000. I run it a 45 amp charger
with it.

Anyway, I think we have a close enough ballbark on fuel consumption
and output for planning/comparison purposes.

15 hours on 1.1 gallons at 500 watts might be stretching reality a
bit, but
it's not far off. I own EU1000i and EU3000is. The 1000 is uncanny.

40A at 14.2V = 568 watts plus some charger in efficiency so that would
be
around 600 to 650 watts so Skip's observations are very close.
But we consume mass quantities of ice, about a 10# block of ice every
couple of days during a Chesapeake summer. Cubes go faster, but their
primary purpose is to cool my Admiral's drinks. Would love to have a
fridge, but
we can buy quite a few years' supply of ice for the upfront cost and
backside power requirements.

In my case, easy to say bigger alternator and larger battery bank but
we're
talking about a 20 hp engine and very limited space and weight
capacity for
additional batteries.

Refrigeration certainly is a desirable feature, but we're enjoying
the
simplicity of our systems. With less to break, we can enjoy the boat
more.
We've other reasons to go in for ice. The fresh water gets empty or
the
holding tank gets full at about the same time.

Most of the boats I see here use exactly that system. The more
up-market ones have a duel system with both engine driven and A.C.
powered compressors for use at sea and in the marina.

We are a family of four and are power hogs with kids DVD's and PC
use.
Our boat has a poorly insulated iceBox with a AB CU-200 system that
uses 5amps and typically runs maybe 10-15hrs/day.
Our 260W of solar and MPPT controler puts out about 60-70AH/day
Battery bank is 900AH
We use about 140-200AH/day
The engine alternator is a 105A unit and we are getting ready to
install a gen/water maker combo unit with an additional 105A
alternator that will burn about 1/6gal/hr of diesel.
My Honda 2000eu runs my Iota 75AMP battery charger, but I don't really
know fuel usage yet because we use it so infrequently. The honda stays
at load with the 75A charger.

How many DC amps is too much
 

Be patient Richard. You got my curiosity up about this last year and as
usual I have gone a bit overboard. Finished the vacuum insulated fridge
last month and have been running tests recirculating water through a 55
gallon barrel. I have one Hobo monitoring interior temps of the freezer,
fridge and ambient. The other Hobo is hooked up to hall effect sensors to
monitor amp draw of the two BD50s. I am running the compressors off a 90
amp 13.5V power supply as the batteries are not installed yet.

I can control almost all the variables but the ambient temp and so far it
has not been high enough to get any usable results. Right now, with an
average ambient of about 58F a basic ice melt test indicated R30 for both
the fridge and freezer. I am drawing 18AH/day on the fridge maintaining 34F
to 38F. The freezer is drawing 21AH maintaining 5F. You will have to
wait until June when I can get several days in the 90s to get any usable
numbers. Then I can give you a complete set of numbers for 3 or 4 days.

You will have to wait until this time next year to get actual at sea
numbers.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

How many DC amps is too much
 

Power consumption for 12 volt refrigeration.

Glenn, I have developed a base line theory for projecting daily
electrical power consumption when planning for 12 volt refrigeration
on a boat. You may remember the Cruising World magazine article some
twenty years ago that GB is still proud of, in this article my boat
box heat load estimate was higher than the rest. I have found that
heat energy forces on small refrigerated boxes can be more important
in some cases than adding insulation R value. There are three factors
influencing daily refrigerator power consumption beyond that of R
value, most creative marketing people fail to point out, cruising
climate conditions, refrigerated product through put and the true
System COP of units purchased. In the past the installer or owner had
no control over matching system COP after installation but today with
Danfoss BD variable speed compressors they can adjust a system's
efficiency.
I usually recommend insulation R value of 30 for boat freezers as
they are not operated at box temperatures below zero degrees F.
My theory on amperage required per day is based on worst case actual
and simulated conditions. The base line conditions I work with are 90
degrees ambient air at midnight, seawater temp 86 degrees and three
inches of new polyurethane insulation. I use a standard box heat load
requiring 10 amp-hrs for each cu ft of refrigerator and 20 amp-hrs for
each cu ft of freezer per day, this is based on top loading boxes and
two p3eople on board. Once the worst case base line is established for
a given size box then it is possible to use the only stable factor in
this equation water temperature to adjust for less than tropical
conditions. For each degree of cooler seawater the energy usage can be
reduced by 2%. If a boat is now operated in seawater temperature of
61 degrees refrigerator power consumption projection can be reduced by
50%. If is easy to see why forum reports from west coast boaters seem
to get better performance figures than boats on the South East coast.

Danfoss does not recommend running BD compressors direct from a power
supply they have indicated that a battery is necessary to dampen
voltage spikes. The electrical module is Danfoss's weakest link and
the new three pin units seem to fail as frequently as their six
predecessors. Module failures seem to be related to improper size boat
wiring and not connecting power source direct to battery or main power
buss.

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

One of the damndest things I ever saw in a museum was something called
a Shaker refrigerator. It was an insulated box with a slot in the
side. There were two metal balls, about the size of small soccer balls
made of what looked like zinc or galvanized steel with a pipe soldered
on connecting them at the top and separating the balls by about 18".
You put one of the balls in the fire and heated it up to nearly red
hot. After it cooled, you put that ball in the refirgerator and ice
formed on it for about 12 hours. Then, you took it out and put the
other ball in the fire, cooled it, and put it back in the box the
other way round.

I think the balls were filled with ammonia. I suppose you could make
one of these work by putting the ball in the BBQ grill over the
transom.

Clever people those Shakers. Shows how much mental energy is left
over when you aren't spending 18 hours a day trying to get into your
neighbor's wife:)

--
Roger Long





That's the Absorption Cycle. Go look how any RV refridgerator operates.
The freezing comes because Ammonia just LOVES water. When Ammonia
combines with water heat is absorbed. The gas burner (or electric
heater when the RV is plugged into the park) merely boils off the water
and ammonia to separate them so the cycle can repeat...simply by gravity
flow. There's no pump needed....just heat. I know someone with a
kerosene refridgerator that runs on a kerosene wick lamp. The lamp
heats the boiler, instead of a propane flame. It was a really old
fridge, probably of historic value.

UNfortunately, for sailors, this fridge needs to be LEVEL to operate
properly because it is a gravity-flow device. If the RV is tilted just
a couple of degrees off level...the fridge just stops. They also
sometimes become vapor locked by water being in the wrong place. The
solution to that is also quite simple. Remove the fridge from the
camper, turn it upside down and leave it that way overnight. Flip it
back over and reinstall and it works fine, again. I think this kind of
fridge would be fine if gimbal mounted. They cool just fine in a MOVING
motorhome roaring down the interstate using its 12V heating coil to save
propane. I had a big Dometic refridgerator-freezer in my last motorhome
that would do any sailboat proud. It ran off of 115VAC, 12VDC or
propane, your choice. It would run just as well off an alcohol flame to
keep the fumes out of the bilge. The gimbal mount would level it so it
would work while the boat was heeled over by the sails.


Mine works great on my catamaran, a 20Lb bottle lasts about 4 weeks.

Cheers.

How many DC amps is too much
 

Larry wrote:
The Antarctic ozone hole is LARGER, now that we have
stopped the production of Freon 12, obviously not reported to an irate
nation, because it has nothing to do with it.


Already covered that, Larry. Look up Gamma Ray bursts from imploding
stars into black holes. It damages the ozone layer faster than anything
our so-called scientists can come up with and takes approx 3 years to
regenerage. Problem is, we get an average of one large burst a year and
several small ones per week so it is an ongoing problem.

From Wiki:

A nearby gamma ray burst could possibly cause mass extinctions on
Earth.[1] Though the short duration of a gamma ray burst would limit the
immediate damage to life, a nearby burst might alter atmospheric
chemistry by reducing the ozone layer and generating acidic nitrogen
oxides. These atmospheric changes could ultimately cause severe damage
to the biosphere.


Red

How many DC amps is too much
 

Red wrote in :

Already covered that, Larry. Look up Gamma Ray bursts from imploding
stars into black holes. It damages the ozone layer faster than anything
our so-called scientists can come up with and takes approx 3 years to
regenerage. Problem is, we get an average of one large burst a year and
several small ones per week so it is an ongoing problem.



No, no, we can't have that. We MUST blame only HUMANS for anything that
happens so we can create a vast new empire of taxpayer-funded research for
major univeristies all duplicating the same research, interminably, for
decades and decades. We must also tie in the human blame factor to large
corporations (read that DUPONT) so we can justify raising the price of
something so simple as R-12 from 75c/pound to $9.50/12oz..."to save the
environment".

Some friends of mine sailed to the Caribbean a couple years ago. I'd done
him a lot of favors, so he asked me if there was anything he could do for
me. I told him to check the islands to see if any had any R-12 for the air
conditioners in my old Mercedes cars, the ones with repairable compressors.
He came back and called me to the boat. "I have a little present for
you." I got 4 cases of R-12 he paid about $1/can for down there. IT WAS
MADE THE YEAR BEFORE IN TENNESEE BUT NOT SOLD IN THE DAMNED USA!

We're being screwed......

CBC has a documentary someone posted over on
alt.binaries.multimedia.documentaries of great interest, too. The
pesticide/chemical companies, like Monsanto, only a handful of them, now
are into genetic engineering, creating SEED that responds to the chemicals
ONLY. That sounds good, but they are SUING any farmers who DARE save their
own seeds to replant in the spring AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT because these
patented genes spread from farms away into this farmer's crop, creating new
seeds with the patented genes in them....not his genes any more.
And Americans think terrorists wear headgear and yell, "Allah Akbar!"....

Not so...

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:06:55 +0000, Larry wrote:

Red wrote in :

Already covered that, Larry. Look up Gamma Ray bursts from imploding
stars into black holes. It damages the ozone layer faster than anything
our so-called scientists can come up with and takes approx 3 years to
regenerage. Problem is, we get an average of one large burst a year and
several small ones per week so it is an ongoing problem.



No, no, we can't have that. We MUST blame only HUMANS for anything that
happens so we can create a vast new empire of taxpayer-funded research for
major univeristies all duplicating the same research, interminably, for
decades and decades. We must also tie in the human blame factor to large
corporations (read that DUPONT) so we can justify raising the price of
something so simple as R-12 from 75c/pound to $9.50/12oz..."to save the
environment".

Some friends of mine sailed to the Caribbean a couple years ago. I'd done
him a lot of favors, so he asked me if there was anything he could do for
me. I told him to check the islands to see if any had any R-12 for the air
conditioners in my old Mercedes cars, the ones with repairable compressors.
He came back and called me to the boat. "I have a little present for
you." I got 4 cases of R-12 he paid about $1/can for down there. IT WAS
MADE THE YEAR BEFORE IN TENNESEE BUT NOT SOLD IN THE DAMNED USA!

We're being screwed......

CBC has a documentary someone posted over on
alt.binaries.multimedia.documentaries of great interest, too. The
pesticide/chemical companies, like Monsanto, only a handful of them, now
are into genetic engineering, creating SEED that responds to the chemicals
ONLY. That sounds good, but they are SUING any farmers who DARE save their
own seeds to replant in the spring AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT because these
patented genes spread from farms away into this farmer's crop, creating new
seeds with the patented genes in them....not his genes any more.
And Americans think terrorists wear headgear and yell, "Allah Akbar!"....

Not so...


Larry

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

How many DC amps is too much
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

How many DC amps is too much
 

Larry wrote in news:Xns9A6EDC3B871B9noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the world
signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly they're in
violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing something about
the environment that's correct and proactive is relatively rare. The
cheapest solution isn't always the best solution.

I've been amazed at seeing R-12 and other banned CFCs on shelves in Central
and South America that have been produced in the US. In my opinion, we
should be going after these companies. There's no excuse for them to still
be manufacturing it.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:57:01 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Larry wrote in news:Xns9A6EDC3B871B9noonehomecom@
208.49.80.253:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

R-12 is freely available in most 3rd world countries. Some of the
newer stuff uses more "friendly" refrigerants but the old reliable
stuff is still used for all the old bangers and the 10 year old air
conditioners.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



America is probably the only place it's not available. It's all a money
scam.

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the world
signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly they're in
violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing something about
the environment that's correct and proactive is relatively rare. The
cheapest solution isn't always the best solution.

I've been amazed at seeing R-12 and other banned CFCs on shelves in Central
and South America that have been produced in the US. In my opinion, we
should be going after these companies. There's no excuse for them to still
be manufacturing it.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org


I have never looked but I'm sure that R-12 is not manufactured in
Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia or Indonesia where I have seen it used. I
suspect that it is manufactured in one of the developed countries,
because, or course, there is a market for it.



Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

How many DC amps is too much
 

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the
world signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more. Clearly
they're in violation of the agreement. The fact that the US is doing
something about the environment that's correct and proactive is
relatively rare. The cheapest solution isn't always the best
solution.



But, Geoff, the "agreement", itself is a scam, based on false science. The
excuse to cut us off from R-12 was that it was destroying the ozone layer,
which is simply false. The SUN and cosmic rays are destroying the ozone
layer, as they have done for millions and millions of years.

All this nonsense of human gasses destroying the Earth assumes the Earth is
in some kind of sealed bubble, which it is not. For its entire history,
the Earth has been destroyed several times over by awful gasses that came
from without and within, long, long before man evolved (or for 6000 years
if you are a devout Christian). Where did it all go? The ecosystem is NOT
an enclosed bubble and is replenished by massive tons of solar ejecta every
day, the solar wind, as it has all this time, man or no man, propaganda or
no propaganda. Hell, we'd have choked to death from the Industrial
Revolution a hundred years ago if we'd been in a bubble....just from
English factory smoke stacks.

Man gives himself way too much credit for his power over nature. Man can't
seem to grasp how small and insignificant he really is, even with his
machines.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:54:03 +0000, Larry wrote:

damn you!!!
now I'm going to have to install a _new_ bull**** detector...again...

How many DC amps is too much
 

Larry wrote in
:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

It's not a scam. R-12 is a very distructive CFC and the rest of the
world signed on to the agreement not to sell/use it any more.
Clearly they're in violation of the agreement. The fact that the US
is doing something about the environment that's correct and proactive
is relatively rare. The cheapest solution isn't always the best
solution.



But, Geoff, the "agreement", itself is a scam, based on false science.
The excuse to cut us off from R-12 was that it was destroying the
ozone layer, which is simply false. The SUN and cosmic rays are
destroying the ozone layer, as they have done for millions and
millions of years.

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

How many DC amps is too much
 

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner caused
it. It didn't.

How many DC amps is too much
 

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:08:52 +0000, Larry wrote:

Geoff Schultz wrote in
6:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner caused
it. It didn't.

Treat yourself:
http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c6767.html

How many DC amps is too much
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

So your argument is that CFCs such as R-12 don't interact with the ozone
layer and hasten its demise? I would say that there's a lot of well
established science that would argue with you.



America has gotten rid of R-12 for many many years. The ozone hole is
bigger.

I'm not saying that R-12 isn't a terrible chemical capable of destroying
ozone in the laboratory, where, of course at great expense, all these
facts
fester. What I'm OBSERVING is that the effect of dragging America, at 10
to 15 times the price, into R-134a has been....well......ZERO, just like
most other programs designed to separate the American consumer from his
wealth by the corporate government bureaucrats.

The size of the ozone hole hasn't done what we were told it would do
BECAUSE the 6.2oz of R-12 in my 1973 Mercedes 220D's air conditioner
caused
it. It didn't.



Actually, that's not the case... the ozone hole over Antartica was actually
quite a bit smaller in 2007 as compared to 2006, although it's not enough to
be considered a trend.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1003100537.htm


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

How many DC amps is too much
 

Geoff Schultz wrote in
:

R-134A is as cheap, or cheaper, than R-12.


The day it was banned, it was 68c/16 oz can at any WalMart....

12 oz of R-134a is around $9 per tiny can.

And it's "cheaper"??

I don't think so.....

One car was converted, my '83 diesel 300TD wagon.

No fittings exist for the '73 220D, however, so it goes on freezing us to
death with the lower pressured forbidden fruit the rest of the world still
uses.