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#11
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Watermakers and Chlorine
There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can
absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing with city water it will make very little difference. On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker. Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating. The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking for one than I have in building one. :-) Steve wrote: Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in the system.. Thanks for catching my oversight Paul.. Steve s/v Good Intentions -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
#12
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Steve-
You're just lucky that this isn't "rec.boats". Over there I would be obligated to taunt and demean you, and drag in a reference to weapons of mass destruction. Best, Paul s/v VALIS "Steve" wrote in message ... Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in the system.. Thanks for catching my oversight Paul.. Steve s/v Good Intentions |
#13
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Steve-
You're just lucky that this isn't "rec.boats". Over there I would be obligated to taunt and demean you, and drag in a reference to weapons of mass destruction. Best, Paul s/v VALIS "Steve" wrote in message ... Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in the system.. Thanks for catching my oversight Paul.. Steve s/v Good Intentions |
#14
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Glenn-
I am surprised by your 8 month number. My Spectra backflush runs once a week, and uses 3 gallons of fresh (chlorinated) water per flush. That is only 106 gallons in 8 months. I don't have the charcoal filter specs, but the element is at least 6 inches tall -- pretty big. Of course, the Spectra manual states that the charcoal filters only last 6 months in service, so maybe it's a time, and not a volume thing? The charcoal filter is only used for the backflush -- it isn't in-line with the house water. Best, Paul s/v VALIS "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04... There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing with city water it will make very little difference. |
#15
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Glenn-
I am surprised by your 8 month number. My Spectra backflush runs once a week, and uses 3 gallons of fresh (chlorinated) water per flush. That is only 106 gallons in 8 months. I don't have the charcoal filter specs, but the element is at least 6 inches tall -- pretty big. Of course, the Spectra manual states that the charcoal filters only last 6 months in service, so maybe it's a time, and not a volume thing? The charcoal filter is only used for the backflush -- it isn't in-line with the house water. Best, Paul s/v VALIS "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04... There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing with city water it will make very little difference. |
#16
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Hi, Glenn, and group,
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04... There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing with city water it will make very little difference. That's an unknown to me. I'm pretty sure it has the filters, as what's there looks like one of the prefilter kits sold, down to the bracket intended to hold them up. Whether there's been any change, whether they're intended to make city water flushing ok or not, I can't say, nor can I say that it's happened with enough frequency to actually avoid fouling, or whatever it is which destroys them, the membranes. On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker. Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating. Thanks for the offer. I don't know that we'll be in a position to take advantage of it, however, as we're days away from our counter *after* survey and seatrial, awaiting only the written report. Practically speaking, I know the broker and owner are not going to spring for a commercial test, and I'm not going to drive down there again just for that. So, I'll just have to go with what I've got, and can get info on. At the moment (still pretty early in the game of asking for input on the subject), I have the suspicion, confirmed by several correspondents either here or on one of several sailnet lists I subscribe to, that it's not been flushed frequently enough. I believe that there are filters which might resolve the Chlorine issue, but the flushing (based on what the broker told me, and it's his word, and work, that's being relied on) is not nearly frequent enough. All of my searching to date has not produced either a Power Survivor 80 for sale in some catalog, much less a manual therefore (I was far too busy in the survey/sea trial to remember to look in the manual, which I'm pretty sure is on the boat), but what I have doesn't look like what's in the 40/160s I've been able to see. All the PS models I've seen have been a single membrane, and this has two. This is also a 110 rather than 12v installation, so I'm wondering if that's what's really there. In any event, I'd far prefer to have some definition from the manual in order to present on that option. It *is* one of the not-proven items (the only other being the SSB) which the broker has agreed requires some consideration. The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking for one than I have in building one. :-) For those waiting with bated breath, I'm going to post in more detail once I get caught up, but right now I'm over my head in trying to get a reasoned counter together while I wait for the written survey, and find insurance (no luck so far, at any price), and, finally, settle on a yard where she'll go when we leave. That date is still tentatively set for March 1, and we *do* expect we'll get it worked out. You can see the survey pix at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery, and check the survey folder. The boat is High Time, in another folder. However, the short story is that we're doing just that. Research, investigation, offer, counter, accepted counter-counter, surveys, sea trial have all happened. Receipt of the report and final negotiations will happen within a week. We expect to sleep aboard the weekend before, close first thing in the AM, turn the key and leave. Back to the story, I'll need something which I can use other than scuttlebutt in order to support a demand for credit for new membranes. Glenn, you could help with sources for me of the high-priced spread, along with the economy reality, should it prove that way. Thanks to all - and please let me know if you have a source for showing a picture of the actual item (Power Survivor 80) claimed by the listing, and, even better, someplace of an on-line manual. It may be simply that this was converted to 110, and the rest is just difficult to see in the way it's laid out vs the pictures of 40/160s I've seen, but in any case, I'll need something with authority to expect it to be accepted. Thanks again. L8R Skip and Lydia -- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
#17
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Hi, Glenn, and group,
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04... There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing with city water it will make very little difference. That's an unknown to me. I'm pretty sure it has the filters, as what's there looks like one of the prefilter kits sold, down to the bracket intended to hold them up. Whether there's been any change, whether they're intended to make city water flushing ok or not, I can't say, nor can I say that it's happened with enough frequency to actually avoid fouling, or whatever it is which destroys them, the membranes. On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker. Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating. Thanks for the offer. I don't know that we'll be in a position to take advantage of it, however, as we're days away from our counter *after* survey and seatrial, awaiting only the written report. Practically speaking, I know the broker and owner are not going to spring for a commercial test, and I'm not going to drive down there again just for that. So, I'll just have to go with what I've got, and can get info on. At the moment (still pretty early in the game of asking for input on the subject), I have the suspicion, confirmed by several correspondents either here or on one of several sailnet lists I subscribe to, that it's not been flushed frequently enough. I believe that there are filters which might resolve the Chlorine issue, but the flushing (based on what the broker told me, and it's his word, and work, that's being relied on) is not nearly frequent enough. All of my searching to date has not produced either a Power Survivor 80 for sale in some catalog, much less a manual therefore (I was far too busy in the survey/sea trial to remember to look in the manual, which I'm pretty sure is on the boat), but what I have doesn't look like what's in the 40/160s I've been able to see. All the PS models I've seen have been a single membrane, and this has two. This is also a 110 rather than 12v installation, so I'm wondering if that's what's really there. In any event, I'd far prefer to have some definition from the manual in order to present on that option. It *is* one of the not-proven items (the only other being the SSB) which the broker has agreed requires some consideration. The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking for one than I have in building one. :-) For those waiting with bated breath, I'm going to post in more detail once I get caught up, but right now I'm over my head in trying to get a reasoned counter together while I wait for the written survey, and find insurance (no luck so far, at any price), and, finally, settle on a yard where she'll go when we leave. That date is still tentatively set for March 1, and we *do* expect we'll get it worked out. You can see the survey pix at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery, and check the survey folder. The boat is High Time, in another folder. However, the short story is that we're doing just that. Research, investigation, offer, counter, accepted counter-counter, surveys, sea trial have all happened. Receipt of the report and final negotiations will happen within a week. We expect to sleep aboard the weekend before, close first thing in the AM, turn the key and leave. Back to the story, I'll need something which I can use other than scuttlebutt in order to support a demand for credit for new membranes. Glenn, you could help with sources for me of the high-priced spread, along with the economy reality, should it prove that way. Thanks to all - and please let me know if you have a source for showing a picture of the actual item (Power Survivor 80) claimed by the listing, and, even better, someplace of an on-line manual. It may be simply that this was converted to 110, and the rest is just difficult to see in the way it's laid out vs the pictures of 40/160s I've seen, but in any case, I'll need something with authority to expect it to be accepted. Thanks again. L8R Skip and Lydia -- "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
#18
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Watermakers and Chlorine
You don't want a Power Survivor 80 or any model from PUR or their
predecessor Recovery Engineering - it's worth nothing. Suggest they remove it and lower the price. Or pay you to remove it and they can sell it on eBay for parts. Second - chlorine has killed the membrane - trust me - or call PUR. On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:30:09 GMT, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: I'm about to buy a boat with a Power Survivor 80 watermaker, installed in 2002. The owner died about 9 or so months ago, and there's some question as to whether he ever used it. I think I recall hearing that Chlorine was damaging to membranes. There are two, about 2' long, on this model. The broker has been flushing this system (not ever making water in the 8+ months it's been in a canal berth in Ft. Lauderdale) with city water every few weeks, and assures me that this is proper for this model, claiming that flushing as he does is adequate and frequent enough. Looking at the output (overboard), it starts cloudy and goes clear. So, is the first assertion (Chlorine is trouble) correct, and if not, does the second assertion (this model doesn't require pickling), combined with approximately 3-4 weeks between flushes, hold water, pardon the expression? If there's trouble brewing, I'd greatly appreciate a link to support it, as it's one of the items on the survey, and we're supposed to counter in a few days... Thanks, ever so much... L8R Skip and Lydia, anticipating "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#19
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Watermakers and Chlorine
You don't want a Power Survivor 80 or any model from PUR or their
predecessor Recovery Engineering - it's worth nothing. Suggest they remove it and lower the price. Or pay you to remove it and they can sell it on eBay for parts. Second - chlorine has killed the membrane - trust me - or call PUR. On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:30:09 GMT, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: I'm about to buy a boat with a Power Survivor 80 watermaker, installed in 2002. The owner died about 9 or so months ago, and there's some question as to whether he ever used it. I think I recall hearing that Chlorine was damaging to membranes. There are two, about 2' long, on this model. The broker has been flushing this system (not ever making water in the 8+ months it's been in a canal berth in Ft. Lauderdale) with city water every few weeks, and assures me that this is proper for this model, claiming that flushing as he does is adequate and frequent enough. Looking at the output (overboard), it starts cloudy and goes clear. So, is the first assertion (Chlorine is trouble) correct, and if not, does the second assertion (this model doesn't require pickling), combined with approximately 3-4 weeks between flushes, hold water, pardon the expression? If there's trouble brewing, I'd greatly appreciate a link to support it, as it's one of the items on the survey, and we're supposed to counter in a few days... Thanks, ever so much... L8R Skip and Lydia, anticipating "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#20
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Watermakers and Chlorine
Point of fact - not ALL membranes are chlorine intolerant - but normal
marine watermaker units are. There are membranes that are mfg for home aquariums, etc that are chlorine tolerant. On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:43:36 -0800, "Steve" wrote: This broker doesn't know what he is doing or what he is talking about.. And just looking at the discharge over the side doesn't prove anything.. All RO membranes are will be damaged by chlorine and if the system isn't used regularly (once ever couple weeks) then it should have been layed up with a pickling flush with Sodium Metabisufite solution or what ever the mfg recommends.. If you serious about the purchase of this boat, then make your offer contingent on a operational test of the unit by a "Qualified" person.. If you in a major cruising port, you should be able to get someone from a RO dealer/shop to come and check it out. Probably cost a few hundred buck though. The surveyor isn't going to be able to tell you anything for sure. BTW, those RO membranes aint cheap.. If you don't want to spend the money on a technician to test the unit, then buy the boat, but subtract the estimated cost of a pair of replacement mebranes.. |
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