Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Well stated! However, I believe that "Plonk" should have been all caps.

"I top-post because what I have to say is more important that what you had
to say, originally. Live with it. You are a troll. Plonk."

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Most people who sail have experience of people in high powered motor
boats who do not seem to know or abide by the IRPCS, and consequently
put our lives and our boats in danger. We don't much like this sort of
thing. Also, they create huge amounts of row, and often pass much too
close making much too much wash, and we don't much like that either.

They are inconsiderate cretins, and not necessarily to be tarred
with the same brush every other driver of an engine powered
vessel.

Consequently, while I don't much like the idea of compulsory certificates
of competence, I equally don't like the idea of ignorant cowboys in
high-powered motor boats.

You don't *really* believe a piece of paper will teach them
common courtesy do you?

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Most people who sail have experience of people in high powered motor
boats who do not seem to know or abide by the IRPCS, and consequently
put our lives and our boats in danger. We don't much like this sort of
thing. Also, they create huge amounts of row, and often pass much too
close making much too much wash, and we don't much like that either.

They are inconsiderate cretins, and not necessarily to be tarred
with the same brush every other driver of an engine powered
vessel.

Consequently, while I don't much like the idea of compulsory certificates
of competence, I equally don't like the idea of ignorant cowboys in
high-powered motor boats.

You don't *really* believe a piece of paper will teach them
common courtesy do you?

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

For office use only. Please do not write or type below this line.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve wrote in message
...
"Sailor" , wrote:

Having followed this thread ...

Learn to post correctly you cretin.

Argumentem ad hominem - you don't defeat the argument by
insulting the man - or his methods of expressing himself.

I know, that's what a lot of people have been doing to you.

Ignore the insults, stick to the case. You don't like the expense
of licensing. That's a bit like the UK motorists who complain
about the application of speed limits by 'profit making'
entities.

What they're really complaining about is the expense of being
caught speeding - in places where they think speed limits are
inappropriate. But who's the best judge of where limits (speed -
or power in this case, it's surrogate) should be applied?

Visitors? who seek pleasure - or local residents? who suffer the
consequences (of accidents).

I've seen enough speed related water deaths in Nidri (Greece,
Levkas - 3 to 5 a year for each of ten years) to be convinced
that something needs to be done. Don't ask me the best thing to
do - but I'm sure that some sort of licencing is better than the
assumption than 'common sense' is all you need. The detail of
right of way rules and light regulations is a start. Do you know
how to treat a windsurfer who is overtaking your powerboat? Do
you know enough to predict the reactions of a boat which you're
approaching which is going to alter course to avoid a potential
collision with a third party?

With a licence, people at least know which rules exist, even if
they can't work them out at the time. So you're an exclusive
genius and common sense will serve . . . not so for the majority.

JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve wrote in message
...
"Sailor" , wrote:

Having followed this thread ...

Learn to post correctly you cretin.

Argumentem ad hominem - you don't defeat the argument by
insulting the man - or his methods of expressing himself.

I know, that's what a lot of people have been doing to you.

Ignore the insults, stick to the case. You don't like the expense
of licensing. That's a bit like the UK motorists who complain
about the application of speed limits by 'profit making'
entities.

What they're really complaining about is the expense of being
caught speeding - in places where they think speed limits are
inappropriate. But who's the best judge of where limits (speed -
or power in this case, it's surrogate) should be applied?

Visitors? who seek pleasure - or local residents? who suffer the
consequences (of accidents).

I've seen enough speed related water deaths in Nidri (Greece,
Levkas - 3 to 5 a year for each of ten years) to be convinced
that something needs to be done. Don't ask me the best thing to
do - but I'm sure that some sort of licencing is better than the
assumption than 'common sense' is all you need. The detail of
right of way rules and light regulations is a start. Do you know
how to treat a windsurfer who is overtaking your powerboat? Do
you know enough to predict the reactions of a boat which you're
approaching which is going to alter course to avoid a potential
collision with a third party?

With a licence, people at least know which rules exist, even if
they can't work them out at the time. So you're an exclusive
genius and common sense will serve . . . not so for the majority.

JimB
Yacht Rapaz, sadly for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
jim(dot)baerselman(at)ntlworld(dot)com

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

hehehe -- you are right, of course. But I would know that if I had my usenet
posting license ;-)

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Fmc" wrote in message
...
Well stated! However, I believe that "Plonk" should have been all caps.

"I top-post because what I have to say is more important that what you had
to say, originally. Live with it. You are a troll. Plonk."

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

hehehe -- you are right, of course. But I would know that if I had my usenet
posting license ;-)

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Fmc" wrote in message
...
Well stated! However, I believe that "Plonk" should have been all caps.

"I top-post because what I have to say is more important that what you had
to say, originally. Live with it. You are a troll. Plonk."

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

The tests are there because not everybody is as competent and responsible as
you belatedly claim to be. Do you really think that other water users should
have their lives put at risk just on the say-so of some holidaymaker who
claims to be experienced? Of course not.

You point out that having a licence does not guarantee safe behaviour. Of
course it does not - but it helps. A system of driving licences on the road
does not stop people driving drunk, driving too fast etc - but you can be
sure that the carnage would be many times worse if there was no licence
system. Exaclty the same applies to water users. If anything, the system
needs tightening up much more, because as you have already pointed out it is
relatively easy to forge an ICC.

As others have already advised, if you are as competent as you claim, you
will have no problem at all passing the test.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

The tests are there because not everybody is as competent and responsible as
you belatedly claim to be. Do you really think that other water users should
have their lives put at risk just on the say-so of some holidaymaker who
claims to be experienced? Of course not.

You point out that having a licence does not guarantee safe behaviour. Of
course it does not - but it helps. A system of driving licences on the road
does not stop people driving drunk, driving too fast etc - but you can be
sure that the carnage would be many times worse if there was no licence
system. Exaclty the same applies to water users. If anything, the system
needs tightening up much more, because as you have already pointed out it is
relatively easy to forge an ICC.

As others have already advised, if you are as competent as you claim, you
will have no problem at all passing the test.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

What utter crap - you are confirming what we already suspect, ie that you
don't really know what you are talking about.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

What utter crap - you are confirming what we already suspect, ie that you
don't really know what you are talking about.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

Perhaps the Greeks rebadge their outboards then g, and I was
conned into paying for a 25hp when in fact it was a 0.25hp. lol.

Seriously though, perhaps the engine's torque figures make a
difference, or the propeller size, etc?

Of course they do. Bigger, slower turning propellors tend to get
better grip on the water at displacement speeds and consequently
transfer more thrust. There's physics to this which I confess I don't
know, but certainly most modern outboards are not propped to power
displacement boats - you need a special propellor and sometimes a
special gearbox as well. But most of the outboard makers seem to sell
'sail' versions of their outboards, which basically means 'propped for
displacement hulls'.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Please don't think this is snide.

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you? You're perfectly right, closing a lee shore in a rising wind with
a dirty slop running is dangerous, and can lead to loss of life.

Once re-started, I managed to keep my family as forward as
possible and alternate between backing off throttle but
maintaining some speed up the swell and then accelerating down
the other side. Eventually I brought us 'behind' the shelter
offered by the two small islands (Mikri Tsougria and Megati
Tsougria) at which point the sea was more or less dead calm
again.

Getting into the shelter of the off-lying islands is probably what you
should have done in the first place. As you found, conditions will be
a lot less difficult under the lee of the land, and you can either get
ashore there or ride out the blow.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'Victories are not solutions.'
;; John Hume, Northern Irish politician, on Radio Scotland 1/2/95
;; Nobel Peace Prize laureate 1998; few have deserved it so much

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

Perhaps the Greeks rebadge their outboards then g, and I was
conned into paying for a 25hp when in fact it was a 0.25hp. lol.

Seriously though, perhaps the engine's torque figures make a
difference, or the propeller size, etc?

Of course they do. Bigger, slower turning propellors tend to get
better grip on the water at displacement speeds and consequently
transfer more thrust. There's physics to this which I confess I don't
know, but certainly most modern outboards are not propped to power
displacement boats - you need a special propellor and sometimes a
special gearbox as well. But most of the outboard makers seem to sell
'sail' versions of their outboards, which basically means 'propped for
displacement hulls'.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Please don't think this is snide.

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you? You're perfectly right, closing a lee shore in a rising wind with
a dirty slop running is dangerous, and can lead to loss of life.

Once re-started, I managed to keep my family as forward as
possible and alternate between backing off throttle but
maintaining some speed up the swell and then accelerating down
the other side. Eventually I brought us 'behind' the shelter
offered by the two small islands (Mikri Tsougria and Megati
Tsougria) at which point the sea was more or less dead calm
again.

Getting into the shelter of the off-lying islands is probably what you
should have done in the first place. As you found, conditions will be
a lot less difficult under the lee of the land, and you can either get
ashore there or ride out the blow.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'Victories are not solutions.'
;; John Hume, Northern Irish politician, on Radio Scotland 1/2/95
;; Nobel Peace Prize laureate 1998; few have deserved it so much

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
You've just confirmed that you are simply rude and unable to
maintain a civilised discussion. Chances are that I shan't bother
responding to you again.

I will be really offended.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
You've just confirmed that you are simply rude and unable to
maintain a civilised discussion. Chances are that I shan't bother
responding to you again.

I will be really offended.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Please don't think this is snide.

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you. You put the lives of two other people at risk because you
had not the skills to cope with the situation you were in. Wouldn't it
be a good thing to make sure, next time you re in that situation, you
do have the skils? I agree with you that a bit of paper by itself is
worth very little, but the knowledge the course should impart might be
worth a lot.

Getting into the shelter of the off-lying islands is probably what you
should have done in the first place.

How could I have done that "in the first place"?

Headed for them immediately rather than running for a lee shore?

As you found, conditions will be
a lot less difficult under the lee of the land, and you can either get
ashore there or ride out the blow.

There was nowhere to "get offshore" and had I decided to "ride
out the blow" I would likely have sank the boat and drowned with
my family.

Then you shouldn't have been in the boat in the first place.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If God does not write LISP, God writes some code so similar to
;; LISP as to make no difference.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Please don't think this is snide.

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you. You put the lives of two other people at risk because you
had not the skills to cope with the situation you were in. Wouldn't it
be a good thing to make sure, next time you re in that situation, you
do have the skils? I agree with you that a bit of paper by itself is
worth very little, but the knowledge the course should impart might be
worth a lot.

Getting into the shelter of the off-lying islands is probably what you
should have done in the first place.

How could I have done that "in the first place"?

Headed for them immediately rather than running for a lee shore?

As you found, conditions will be
a lot less difficult under the lee of the land, and you can either get
ashore there or ride out the blow.

There was nowhere to "get offshore" and had I decided to "ride
out the blow" I would likely have sank the boat and drowned with
my family.

Then you shouldn't have been in the boat in the first place.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If God does not write LISP, God writes some code so similar to
;; LISP as to make no difference.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
However you
should consider the case of the family who rented a powerboat on Lake
Garda recently,

Is that the case where half the family drowned, and the survivors are suing
the little town near Riva (name forgotten) because the speedboat company did
not tell them that the lake was deeper than wading depth?

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
However you
should consider the case of the family who rented a powerboat on Lake
Garda recently,

Is that the case where half the family drowned, and the survivors are suing
the little town near Riva (name forgotten) because the speedboat company did
not tell them that the lake was deeper than wading depth?

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve wrote in message
...

No, it's a bit like the equal disdain I have for the current
extortion applied to passing the UK driving test. Most
youngsters
[read: parents] these days are paying the best part of £1,000
which is *ridiculous* and yet *another* nu-labor (sic) method
of
collecting revenue / discouraging motorists while ignoring the
*real* issues behind our overcrowded roads.

/rant

Yes, that's a rant. You don't have to pay for a driving course to
take the test. But doing so considerably increases the
probability of passing the test. Same with power boat
certificates.

who's the best judge of where limits (speed -
or power in this case, it's surrogate) should be applied?
Visitors? who seek pleasure - or local residents? who suffer
the
consequences (of accidents).

A system which promotes driver responsibility rather than
drone-style rule compliance.. Since when could a bloody sheep
drive sensibly?

Now that's not a logical answer to the question, it's a bit like
another rant . . .

I've seen enough speed related water deaths in Nidri (Greece,
Levkas - 3 to 5 a year for each of ten years) to be convinced
that something needs to be done.
Do you know
how to treat a windsurfer who is overtaking your powerboat?

Nope, but at a guess I'd throttle off slightly, move away
slowly
where possible and make damn sure I did not take the wind from
his* sail as I imagine the latter would upset him* a tad..

No. Maintain course and speed so he can plan how best to avoid
you. As overtaking vessel the windsurfer has to keep clear of
you. Changes to your velocity could negate his plan, thus causing
a collision.

Do
you know enough to predict the reactions of a boat which
you're
approaching which is going to alter course to avoid a
potential
collision with a third party?

I have very good 'natural' spacial awareness and hand-to-eye
coordination, so I think I'd probably do ok. And I'd try to do
so
with full consideration for not putting others' more at risk.
First rule is "don't panic". :)

Not good enough. That approach didn't work in the past, so rules
were invented.
The paradox was that the majority of drivers thought they had
above average ability. The reality was that most were average -
by definition.

Make my question more simple. You're converging with a similar
power boat coming from your left.
a. How do you know whether (if nothing's done) you're on a
collision course?
b. If you're on a collision course, what would you do?

Answers in three seconds please . . .

JimB

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve wrote in message
...

No, it's a bit like the equal disdain I have for the current
extortion applied to passing the UK driving test. Most
youngsters
[read: parents] these days are paying the best part of £1,000
which is *ridiculous* and yet *another* nu-labor (sic) method
of
collecting revenue / discouraging motorists while ignoring the
*real* issues behind our overcrowded roads.

/rant

Yes, that's a rant. You don't have to pay for a driving course to
take the test. But doing so considerably increases the
probability of passing the test. Same with power boat
certificates.

who's the best judge of where limits (speed -
or power in this case, it's surrogate) should be applied?
Visitors? who seek pleasure - or local residents? who suffer
the
consequences (of accidents).

A system which promotes driver responsibility rather than
drone-style rule compliance.. Since when could a bloody sheep
drive sensibly?

Now that's not a logical answer to the question, it's a bit like
another rant . . .

I've seen enough speed related water deaths in Nidri (Greece,
Levkas - 3 to 5 a year for each of ten years) to be convinced
that something needs to be done.
Do you know
how to treat a windsurfer who is overtaking your powerboat?

Nope, but at a guess I'd throttle off slightly, move away
slowly
where possible and make damn sure I did not take the wind from
his* sail as I imagine the latter would upset him* a tad..

No. Maintain course and speed so he can plan how best to avoid
you. As overtaking vessel the windsurfer has to keep clear of
you. Changes to your velocity could negate his plan, thus causing
a collision.

Do
you know enough to predict the reactions of a boat which
you're
approaching which is going to alter course to avoid a
potential
collision with a third party?

I have very good 'natural' spacial awareness and hand-to-eye
coordination, so I think I'd probably do ok. And I'd try to do
so
with full consideration for not putting others' more at risk.
First rule is "don't panic". :)

Not good enough. That approach didn't work in the past, so rules
were invented.
The paradox was that the majority of drivers thought they had
above average ability. The reality was that most were average -
by definition.

Make my question more simple. You're converging with a similar
power boat coming from your left.
a. How do you know whether (if nothing's done) you're on a
collision course?
b. If you're on a collision course, what would you do?

Answers in three seconds please . . .

JimB

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you.

No-one would have "known to get into shelter earlier", there was
no warning, whatsoever.

Rubbish. A sea doesn't build from nothing to dangerous in no time. It
happens quickly, but not in no time. A lot of energy input is
required, and the sea surface is a relatively poor transducer of
energy. And you can see the weather coming in on the windward horizon,
especially with sudden squalls.

You either think I'm not being truthful about the circumstances
at the time, perhaps you didn't understand me or you think a
certificate [read: course] would endow me with psychic abilities.
Either way, you are not being reasonable about this.

I'm a reasonably skilled small boat user, and I've been knocking about
in waters a lot more dangerous than the eastern mediteranean for forty
years. I'm not a great believer in bits of paper, but I am a great
believer in knowing how to read the sea state, how to read the
weather, and how to plan a passage so that you know what you're going
to do in every eventuality of the weather. A good course will teach
you some of this, although experience will teach you more.

On the day in question a *lot* of people were caught out, the
forecast had suggested the opposite of what happened

That's normal.

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you.

No-one would have "known to get into shelter earlier", there was
no warning, whatsoever.

Rubbish. A sea doesn't build from nothing to dangerous in no time. It
happens quickly, but not in no time. A lot of energy input is
required, and the sea surface is a relatively poor transducer of
energy. And you can see the weather coming in on the windward horizon,
especially with sudden squalls.

You either think I'm not being truthful about the circumstances
at the time, perhaps you didn't understand me or you think a
certificate [read: course] would endow me with psychic abilities.
Either way, you are not being reasonable about this.

I'm a reasonably skilled small boat user, and I've been knocking about
in waters a lot more dangerous than the eastern mediteranean for forty
years. I'm not a great believer in bits of paper, but I am a great
believer in knowing how to read the sea state, how to read the
weather, and how to plan a passage so that you know what you're going
to do in every eventuality of the weather. A good course will teach
you some of this, although experience will teach you more.

On the day in question a *lot* of people were caught out, the
forecast had suggested the opposite of what happened

That's normal.

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be
dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

Me neither. Like most of us, I've sailed a little in Greece. Yes there
are freaky winds, there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the
Adriatic that I live by. However they do not appear without warning,
ever.

Then I can only propose you spend some time on the Croatian side of your bit
of water - I've been sailing my yacht there for over 20 years and the Bora
is a wind to respect. It *often* arrives without warning, although sometimes
there are maritime reports that conditions are such that one could be
expected; not always correct. It hits like a sledgehammer and in ten minutes
can be storm force. I've been at anchor and been suddenly well heeled over
from mast windage alone, until the boat settles downwind to the anchor. The
conditions that produce this NNE wind are probably associated with the steep
coastal mountains. For some details see:
http://www.cig.ensmp.fr/~iahs/sappor.../015776-1.html
An extract: ".. the bora speed maxima may surpass 60 m/s. Thus, bora is one
of the severest local winds in the world." And I repeat, contrary to your
claim, it often does "appear without warning," Last summer was so stable
that in three months of cruising I did not experience this formidable wind
at all, the first time for many years.

BrianH

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be
dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

Me neither. Like most of us, I've sailed a little in Greece. Yes there
are freaky winds, there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the
Adriatic that I live by. However they do not appear without warning,
ever.

Then I can only propose you spend some time on the Croatian side of your bit
of water - I've been sailing my yacht there for over 20 years and the Bora
is a wind to respect. It *often* arrives without warning, although sometimes
there are maritime reports that conditions are such that one could be
expected; not always correct. It hits like a sledgehammer and in ten minutes
can be storm force. I've been at anchor and been suddenly well heeled over
from mast windage alone, until the boat settles downwind to the anchor. The
conditions that produce this NNE wind are probably associated with the steep
coastal mountains. For some details see:
http://www.cig.ensmp.fr/~iahs/sappor.../015776-1.html
An extract: ".. the bora speed maxima may surpass 60 m/s. Thus, bora is one
of the severest local winds in the world." And I repeat, contrary to your
claim, it often does "appear without warning," Last summer was so stable
that in three months of cruising I did not experience this formidable wind
at all, the first time for many years.

BrianH

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
BrianH wrote:

And I repeat, contrary to your claim, it often does "appear without
warning," Last summer was so stable that in three months of cruising I
did
not experience this formidable wind at all, the first time for many
years.

I've experienced the Bora in Ancona and around Giulianova. It doesn't
arive in Italy without warning. Whether it's sufficient warning to get
to a safe haven is another question.

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning. The bora originates in the eastern Adriatic hinterland and can
appear in the inshore eastern Adriatic "in hurricane force" without any
warning whatsoever, if they are of the locally generated sort, and the
summer ones usually are. They also are not extensive, so what you have
experienced in Italy are not typical of what are invoked off the Croatian
coast. What you are referring to as "bora" is almost certainly only a strong
NE wind and, being onshore across a sea, usually predictable.

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
BrianH wrote:

And I repeat, contrary to your claim, it often does "appear without
warning," Last summer was so stable that in three months of cruising I
did
not experience this formidable wind at all, the first time for many
years.

I've experienced the Bora in Ancona and around Giulianova. It doesn't
arive in Italy without warning. Whether it's sufficient warning to get
to a safe haven is another question.

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning. The bora originates in the eastern Adriatic hinterland and can
appear in the inshore eastern Adriatic "in hurricane force" without any
warning whatsoever, if they are of the locally generated sort, and the
summer ones usually are. They also are not extensive, so what you have
experienced in Italy are not typical of what are invoked off the Croatian
coast. What you are referring to as "bora" is almost certainly only a strong
NE wind and, being onshore across a sea, usually predictable.

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

But you quite obviously are! Don't forget, you started off this thread by
asking where you could get a forged ICC.

To your credit, you do seem to have learnt a bit of a lesson though, as you
are now at least trying to scrabble back onto the morale high-ground.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

But you quite obviously are! Don't forget, you started off this thread by
asking where you could get a forged ICC.

To your credit, you do seem to have learnt a bit of a lesson though, as you
are now at least trying to scrabble back onto the morale high-ground.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"BrianH" writes:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning.

He didn't admit that 'error', and neither do I. Yes, winds falling off
mountainsides can hit very hard very suddenly - I remember one
occasion sailing along gently on a very nice day with just the jib up
and suddenly being knocked down to mast horizontal by such a wind. I
was caught out on that occasion because I was not paying
attention. But it is literally impossible for such a wind to 'appear
without warning'. To get that sort of effect you need a very violent
movement of a very large amount (at least thousands of tons) of air,
and if you are paying attention you will see it coming. The new air
must be significantly different (usually much colder) than the air it
replaces, so will have different moisture and dust content and hence
different trnsparency, leading to different apparent sky colour and
different visibility, even if you do not see the different colour and
texture of the water surface as it approaches (which, if you are close
inshore, you may not).

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

I don't think he's a liar. I think he's very inexperienced, and would
benefit either from going to sea regularly with someone more
experienced for some time, or, alternatively, stumping up his money
and taking a course.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"BrianH" writes:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning.

He didn't admit that 'error', and neither do I. Yes, winds falling off
mountainsides can hit very hard very suddenly - I remember one
occasion sailing along gently on a very nice day with just the jib up
and suddenly being knocked down to mast horizontal by such a wind. I
was caught out on that occasion because I was not paying
attention. But it is literally impossible for such a wind to 'appear
without warning'. To get that sort of effect you need a very violent
movement of a very large amount (at least thousands of tons) of air,
and if you are paying attention you will see it coming. The new air
must be significantly different (usually much colder) than the air it
replaces, so will have different moisture and dust content and hence
different trnsparency, leading to different apparent sky colour and
different visibility, even if you do not see the different colour and
texture of the water surface as it approaches (which, if you are close
inshore, you may not).

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

I don't think he's a liar. I think he's very inexperienced, and would
benefit either from going to sea regularly with someone more
experienced for some time, or, alternatively, stumping up his money
and taking a course.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

I'm not calling you a liar; I'm simply saying that with adequate small
boat handling experience you not only could have, but would have
predicted at least the change in sae state consequent on the wind, even
if you had not predicted the wind itself (which I believe you would
also have).

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

I'm not calling you a liar; I'm simply saying that with adequate small
boat handling experience you not only could have, but would have
predicted at least the change in sae state consequent on the wind, even
if you had not predicted the wind itself (which I believe you would
also have).

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit
he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

Thank you for that.

And my "story" is completely true, I can probably find the exact
date and time it happened.

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel. Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

Forget the idea of forged documents - that was a reprehensible notion,
instead take a course because what you don't know WILL hurt you, and your
family.

Good luck,

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit
he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

Thank you for that.

And my "story" is completely true, I can probably find the exact
date and time it happened.

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel. Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

Forget the idea of forged documents - that was a reprehensible notion,
instead take a course because what you don't know WILL hurt you, and your
family.

Good luck,

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
BrianH wrote:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your
words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to
see
you are admitting your error

Are youu hard of reading?

"there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live by. However they do not appear without warning, ever."

Means what it says, it is a statement about the Adriatic in the area
that I live, Ancona to Giulianova.


Yes, you are right, you made a remark that I wrongly construed to mean the
Adriatic in general, my apology (perhaps that may set a precedent in this
ego-ridden newsgroup).

However, I was perhaps so bemused at the attitude that weather patterns
could only conform to your own observations when I had frequent concrete
experiences that were at variance to what you were so emphatically stating.
Well, I can be equally emphatic; I have indeed experienced strong winds
without warning and not only in the Adriatic and, no, I'm not blind to
prevailing/changing conditions nor am I inexperieced in recognising basic
meteorological signs.

It's a big world out there and it is always dangerous to assume that
everywhere conforms to a parochial view, especially concerning the weather
with its infinite parameters, including unique local topographies.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
BrianH wrote:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your
words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to
see
you are admitting your error

Are youu hard of reading?

"there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I
live by. However they do not appear without warning, ever."

Means what it says, it is a statement about the Adriatic in the area
that I live, Ancona to Giulianova.


Yes, you are right, you made a remark that I wrongly construed to mean the
Adriatic in general, my apology (perhaps that may set a precedent in this
ego-ridden newsgroup).

However, I was perhaps so bemused at the attitude that weather patterns
could only conform to your own observations when I had frequent concrete
experiences that were at variance to what you were so emphatically stating.
Well, I can be equally emphatic; I have indeed experienced strong winds
without warning and not only in the Adriatic and, no, I'm not blind to
prevailing/changing conditions nor am I inexperieced in recognising basic
meteorological signs.

It's a big world out there and it is always dangerous to assume that
everywhere conforms to a parochial view, especially concerning the weather
with its infinite parameters, including unique local topographies.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:


"Steve" wrote in message
.. .
"BrianH" , wrote:

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to
show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel.

What is foolish about hiring a boat and keeping within the
guidelines set by the hire company?

Because the difficulties you found yourself in showed that those guidelines
were flawed, which you would have seen if you had known more.

Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

No doubt your own perfect record will attest to that.

That is a juvenile comment and irrelevant to the discussion. Of course I do
not have a perfect record, far from it, but I have had no incident worse
than a few groundings in 40 years of skippering my own yacht in the waters
of three continents, usually single handed. Agreed going aground in the
wrong place at the wrong time can escalate into a major incident but I did
have a large measure of luck during all that time. As you did.

My homily about expecting the worse is good advice. Murphy is always with us
and at sea, he brings his brother and the rest of the family as well. If
something can go wrong, it will. And so will something else at the same
time.

BrianH.

Licence to hire speedboat in Greece/Spain
 

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:


"Steve" wrote in message
.. .
"BrianH" , wrote:

I have no doubt that it is - you have admitted enough damning facts to
show
you are not fazed to admit the truth even when it makes you look foolish,
which you were. In particular to venture where you did in an unsuitable
vessel.

What is foolish about hiring a boat and keeping within the
guidelines set by the hire company?

Because the difficulties you found yourself in showed that those guidelines
were flawed, which you would have seen if you had known more.

Good seamanship includes expecting the worst and to prepare
accordingly.

No doubt your own perfect record will attest to that.

That is a juvenile comment and irrelevant to the discussion. Of course I do
not have a perfect record, far from it, but I have had no incident worse
than a few groundings in 40 years of skippering my own yacht in the waters
of three continents, usually single handed. Agreed going aground in the
wrong place at the wrong time can escalate into a major incident but I did
have a large measure of luck during all that time. As you did.

My homily about expecting the worse is good advice. Murphy is always with us
and at sea, he brings his brother and the rest of the family as well. If
something can go wrong, it will. And so will something else at the same
time.

BrianH.

Sudden winds: Was Licence etc
 

BrianH wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few
minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it
coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere
moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they
wouldn't be

Getting a bit heated, this discussion, so I've snipped a lot of
threats and hard words!

About sudden winds.

I've lived and sailed Greek waters since 1978, and there's no
doubt that occasionally very big winds arrive without any
warning. No cloud change visible, no visibility change visible,
nothing. But it's rare.

The most common 'big fright' is the passage of a cold front, when
there will be a lot of cloud around, and if you're downwind of an
island giving shelter from the regular wind, you won't see the
roll cloud signalling the approach of the front. Suddenly the
wind shifts from the regular N segment to a southerly segment -
and that southerly wind can hit 50kts at onset then slowly drop
to 30kts. Waves will build from flat to 1metre within 15 minutes,
2 metres after about 30 minutes. By then the wind has usually
passed. Twice I've seen yachts anchored bows to a quay minced to
pieces in such circumstances, once in Levkas town, once in Tolon.

The Adriatic bora (especially in April and May) is the next most
common 'big fright'. 40kts from a consistent blue sky within a
few minutes.

After that you should consider the passing of a big cumulus. In
unstable conditions you can have lots of these, none a big
threat. Then along comes a twister. Oops! They'll flatten any
boat, drag any anchor, but they're gone in a minute and are
rarely accompanied by any swell.

Blue sky 'big frights' from the south in the Aegean are usually p
receded by a build up of a southerly swell in flat water. They're
easily the worst, but don't usually go above 30kts in summer.

There's another, interesting, blue sky fright, but it doesn't
involve a change in wind direction. It affects yachts in the lee
of some islands. When the regular meltemi goes above a certain
strength, the wind seems to accelerate down the mountain side and
suddenly there's no wind shelter. Vassiliki shows this effect
beautifully, and several Aegean islands show the effect to
dangerous levels. Calm to 50 kts offshore in seconds. Yuk.

I don't think any courses will prepare people to predict any of
these situations, though experience will raise suspicions if a
swell picks up without wind to cause it. They're all very
frightening when you first experience them, and judgement tends
to be suspended for a while. As to meeting them from a small open
boat . . .

I'm quite prepared to believe that Steve may have experienced a
weather change that frightened him immensely. I suspect the swell
may have been building up beforehand, but perhaps it's
significance hadn't registered. I think also the swell height was
exaggerated - it just doesn't build up from nothing to more than
2 metres within less than half an hour - unless you've popped
around a sheltering headland by mistake.

So, though this discussion is interesting, I think it's a red
herring concerning licencing.

JimB