" wrote:
By racing standards I prioritized just fine.

Apparently not. You seem to not prioritize at all. It's a question of
observing all relevant data, deciding what is going to contribute the
most to your goal (when racing, it is beating the others... what is it
when cruising?) and maximizing those factors.

For example, look at Frank & Julian Bethwaite (rather successful
racers I believe); spent a great deal of time & effort analyzing (and
then explaining in their book) exactly how to tell when wind shifts
are more important to the overall strategy of a particular race than
wind strength. It is a matter of what you prioritize.


I've never head a racer
talk about effort/reward ratios, but if I did it would just make the
racer in me salivate. We eat the weak ones.


Without setting the right priorities, you'd be far astern drooling on
yourself.




And point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising except that risk/effort/
reward priorities are different...


No. I think that's just plain wrong within the context of long range
ocean cruising. The passage making is the smallest part of the
cruising for most of us.

Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? Does preparation
play any part in racing? It sure does in cruising. Does study of
certain skills? Does getting the boat into the right place at the
right time (or within a reasonable time window)? How about not running
aground.... far more important in racing than cruising! Ditto for
playing the tides.

As for maneuvering in tight quarters, think for a minute. Take two!
If you leave port (or anchorage) at the beginning of every passage,
and enter port (or anchorage) at the end of every passage, that makes
maneuvering your boat around obstacles 2x as important as
passagemaking. The amount of time on passage may be much much greater,
but you maneuver twice as often.

Priorities!

DSK

Doug,

You wrote:
... point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising ...

And then you wrote:
Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? ...

So, yeah, I thought you were saying the cruising is the same as point-
to-point racing. And I figured the only part of cruising __as I know
it__ that could be like point to point racing is passage making. I
must have been mistook. What did you mean?

Also, since we obviously aren't talking about the same kind of
cruising, it'd be helpful to me to know what kind of cruising you're
talking about. I think an example or two of the kind of cruises
you've taken would help me understand where you're coming from on
this.

-- Tom.

You wrote:
... point-to-point racing, whether in the ocean or in sheltered
waters, is essentially the same as cruising ...
And then you wrote:
Did I say that racing is the same as passagemaking? ...

So, yeah, I thought you were saying the cruising is the same as point-
to-point racing.

Hmm... looking back, I can see where you got that impression
How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome... as mentioned earlier, I am specifically *not* talking
about the skill of flogging a boat around bouys as quickly as possible
(which doesn't sound fun to non-racers, and they seem to have no idea
what is involved), but rather the skills which go into enabling the
sailor to do so in the first place.... preparation, prioritizing, boat-
handling, knowledge & observation of weather & wind & tide patterns,
the ability to know where the boat is going to fetch (and in what time
frame) without having to concentrate, etc etc. The thing that most
racers concentrate on most of the time... sail set & trim... is much
less important in cruising. It sounds like that was your main focus.



Also, since we obviously aren't talking about the same kind of
cruising, it'd be helpful to me to know what kind of cruising you're
talking about. I think an example or two of the kind of cruises
you've taken would help me understand where you're coming from on
this.


Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

It seems likely to me that you either haven't learned the same skills
that I did from racing, or that you learned them without knowing that
you know them, and thus never learned to consciously fit them into the
big picture.
I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

DSK

On Mar 4, 7:28 am, wrote:
....
How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome...

If you were to add "while underway" somewhere in there I'd be
content.

Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

Neat. I think I use my racing skills most when we are trying to get
someplace say 50-70 miles away in the daylight (generally short
tropical days) and less on longer passages. At anchor not at all.
I'm guessing that US East Coast sailing involves a larger percent of
the day hopping stuff and less of the "how many weeks have we been out
here?" stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find that played a big part
in our philosophical differences. I also have this feeling that I'm
missing some important part of your thesis. Sorry about that.

I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

Yes, I can play most positions competently, too. I grew up racing the
family boats which were one designs and the usual youth stuff. I
moved on to fairly serious 470 and J-24 racing and also crewed on the
big boats. I've done some name brand ocean races and lots of PHRF
stuff. I have a "good" collection of horrible silver-plate, tatty
flags and miscellaneous trophy things...

-- Tom.

On Mar 4, 2:19 pm,
On Mar 4, 7:28 am, wrote:
...

How about this- the skills that are rewarded in racing have a pretty
high correlation to the skills which make cruising safer and less
worrisome...

" wrote:
If you were to add "while underway" somewhere in there I'd be
content.


At anchor you should be aware of windshifts & gusts, and especially
aware of upcoming changes in weather, nyet? How about tidal
currents.... the judging of which is definitely a useful racing skill
unless the particular race is on a lake
I always use a transit to judge position on starting line, and it's
the quickest & most accurate way to tell if the anchor is dragging.
Etc etc etc.


Mostly coastal sailing, mostly on the US East Coast although I've
sailed a lot of other places, and have done enough passagemaking to
know what it's like. Most recently my wife and I completed a Great
Loop cruise around the eastern US & Canada, and even on a tugboat the
skills I'm talking about contribute greatly to a smooth & safe cruise.

Neat. I think I use my racing skills most when we are trying to get
someplace say 50-70 miles away in the daylight (generally short
tropical days) and less on longer passages. At anchor not at all.

Oh, I bet you use them more than you think (see above).
The difference is, in a race there is quick and sure feedback on how
accurate your judgements are, strong motivation, and teachers at the
ready. In cruising, it is difficult to learn for many reasons and
there is sort of a pass/fail threshold with no real reward other than
continued peace & relaxation.

I think this is one reason why sailing is a less popular sport in the
US, it takes too much "paying attention." People would rather play
video games.



I'm guessing that US East Coast sailing involves a larger percent of
the day hopping stuff and less of the "how many weeks have we been out
here?" stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to find that played a big part
in our philosophical differences. I also have this feeling that I'm
missing some important part of your thesis. Sorry about that.


Sorry to have not explained things better sooner. Plus I don't have
much internet time these days and have made more errors than usual...
due to hurrying, maybe

I'd be interested to know what kind of boats you raced, and what
position in the crew you held. For my own part, I've done a little of
everything but generally prefer to drive.

Yes, I can play most positions competently, too. I grew up racing the
family boats which were one designs and the usual youth stuff. I
moved on to fairly serious 470 and J-24 racing and also crewed on the
big boats. I've done some name brand ocean races and lots of PHRF
stuff. I have a "good" collection of horrible silver-plate, tatty
flags and miscellaneous trophy things...


Sounds like a lot of fun. I raced 470s a long time ago, got in some
very fun races with some of the big names... I noticed Dave Ullman is
kicking butt in Melges 24s these days.

DSK