Boat Choices
 

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:29:31 -0600, "Wendy"
wrote:


"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
However depending on boat size, having a canoe stern gives up a few
positive
aspects of transom stern boats without necessarily offering compensation.
I
want to suggest (at the risk of drawing ire) that there has never been any
real evidence that these designs are any better or worse than transom
boats
in rough going. We hear things about "parting breaking waves and seas"
and
so on, but I don't believe there is any quantifiable evidence that
double-enders do any better than any other designs. Not that they do any
worse either, but there's a suggestion of superiority out there that is
not
supported by any real evidence.

It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea. I spent a lot of time running these boats
http://www.boatshow.com/POWER/CustomDivePro42.html which are rudderless
jets, and they were horrid in a following sea. But I admit that comparing a
300hp non-displacement hull to a 35-40 sailboat is an apples-and-oranges
thing. My experiences may well be a hindrance here... I am not committed
to a double-ender.

Wendy, you are indeed extrapolating from something unrelated.
Remember, essentially all keel sailboats are doubelenders at and below
the waterline. The visible "canoe stern" loses a great deal of aft
buoyancy in a following sea.

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy

Boat Choices
 

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy

Boat Choices
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.

I ran into most of these inferior metal problems on my '76 Cheoy Lee.
However between the previous owner and my ownership. We collectively
replaced those items that effected the overall safety of the boat.. It was
12 years old when I got it so some of these problems were already becoming
evident and were picked up in the survey.

I would estimate that I spent about 5% of the purchase price in hardware and
equipment upgrades because of the chinese crap or knock-offs.

The only thing I couldn't really do much about without spending a fortune,
was the teak decks.. All I could do there was try to refill any seams or
plug holes that opened up.

All that said, I really liked the boat, she had an excellent hull layup, was
of a good design (Luder) and was a great boat in open water or single
handing in close quarters.

Bottom line. There only two US production boat I would want to own for
passage making, Shannon and Pacific Seacraft. If I couldn't get into one of
them then I would do like I have done, Build my own..

For everyone else.. If they are careful and get a good surveyor working for
them, they can have a fine boat from Tiawan and then fix everything that the
surveyor finds wrong.. He/She would still have a better boat than a Hunter
or orther US production boats.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.

I ran into most of these inferior metal problems on my '76 Cheoy Lee.
However between the previous owner and my ownership. We collectively
replaced those items that effected the overall safety of the boat.. It was
12 years old when I got it so some of these problems were already becoming
evident and were picked up in the survey.

I would estimate that I spent about 5% of the purchase price in hardware and
equipment upgrades because of the chinese crap or knock-offs.

The only thing I couldn't really do much about without spending a fortune,
was the teak decks.. All I could do there was try to refill any seams or
plug holes that opened up.

All that said, I really liked the boat, she had an excellent hull layup, was
of a good design (Luder) and was a great boat in open water or single
handing in close quarters.

Bottom line. There only two US production boat I would want to own for
passage making, Shannon and Pacific Seacraft. If I couldn't get into one of
them then I would do like I have done, Build my own..

For everyone else.. If they are careful and get a good surveyor working for
them, they can have a fine boat from Tiawan and then fix everything that the
surveyor finds wrong.. He/She would still have a better boat than a Hunter
or orther US production boats.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

Steve makes an important point about a surveyor.

However many designs/models are discussed in depth on various 'owners
groups' etc. located all over the web.
It is incredible how many important items are not found by highly
touted and well recommended surveyors. I well realize there is a
definite difference between a simple 'insurance' survey and a full
scale in-depth survey .... but without developing a specific list of
known problem items typical to each design and presenting this list to
a 'surveyor' you can blindly accept major repair potential through
acceptance of an 'insurance' survey. I cant reiterate this too much:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Boat Choices
 

Steve makes an important point about a surveyor.

However many designs/models are discussed in depth on various 'owners
groups' etc. located all over the web.
It is incredible how many important items are not found by highly
touted and well recommended surveyors. I well realize there is a
definite difference between a simple 'insurance' survey and a full
scale in-depth survey .... but without developing a specific list of
known problem items typical to each design and presenting this list to
a 'surveyor' you can blindly accept major repair potential through
acceptance of an 'insurance' survey. I cant reiterate this too much:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:
It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Like the song says, "It ain't necessarily so." There are a couple of
factors that affect how a boat behaves in a following sea, and it also
makes a big difference in how bad a following sea you plan to be in.

An important characteristic in any boat, sail or power, is reserve
bouyancy... in other words, as conditions (rolling, heeling, big waves,
whatever) stick the hull or a part of it deeper into the water, how
strongly does the hull, or that deeper immersed part of the hull, try to
rise? This is one case where more is better. And a boat with a transom
is going to have more enclosed volume, thus more reserve bouyancy, than
a canoe stern.

But keep in mind, most long distance cruisers avoid heavy weather and
spend less than 1% of their sailing time battling storms.

The one thing that I don't like about canoe sterns, and heard the most
complaints about, is that it severely reduces cockpit area (thus
available living space) and it's difficult to mount equipment on them.


Not the be-all and end-all goal. I'm not antisocial :) Being single, I
simply expect there would be times when I would sail alone. I may be best
served by something smaller, but 37' is attractive. The Pacific Seacraft at
32' would be fine, I think.

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

One of the things I'd recommend is to get as much experience as possible
sailing OPBs. You seem to have the credentials to be a highly sought
after crew, it should be difficult to get a berth on some deliveries.
It's no problem at all if you're willing to bring boats back from races!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:
It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Like the song says, "It ain't necessarily so." There are a couple of
factors that affect how a boat behaves in a following sea, and it also
makes a big difference in how bad a following sea you plan to be in.

An important characteristic in any boat, sail or power, is reserve
bouyancy... in other words, as conditions (rolling, heeling, big waves,
whatever) stick the hull or a part of it deeper into the water, how
strongly does the hull, or that deeper immersed part of the hull, try to
rise? This is one case where more is better. And a boat with a transom
is going to have more enclosed volume, thus more reserve bouyancy, than
a canoe stern.

But keep in mind, most long distance cruisers avoid heavy weather and
spend less than 1% of their sailing time battling storms.

The one thing that I don't like about canoe sterns, and heard the most
complaints about, is that it severely reduces cockpit area (thus
available living space) and it's difficult to mount equipment on them.


Not the be-all and end-all goal. I'm not antisocial :) Being single, I
simply expect there would be times when I would sail alone. I may be best
served by something smaller, but 37' is attractive. The Pacific Seacraft at
32' would be fine, I think.

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

One of the things I'd recommend is to get as much experience as possible
sailing OPBs. You seem to have the credentials to be a highly sought
after crew, it should be difficult to get a berth on some deliveries.
It's no problem at all if you're willing to bring boats back from races!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument? I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and "real"
people.

At least for the time being.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/