Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 13, 10:40 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 12, 7:25 am, Joe wrote:

Hello Eco-Joe:

When I considered a similar effort while in pursuit of profit on the
west coast I kept running into a wall. I may have missed something or
not asked the right questions. I hope that you would make a brief list
of the organizations/departments and any permits, licenses,
documentation needed to make your plan work. The second Rule of
Acquisition states Never Give Up... Never Surrender! So, would you mind
summarizing what you have already posted other places below? For
example, how is your vessel Registered or Documented? You also
mentioned USDA, US Customs, Bill of Laden etc.

Bob

Coonass Bob;

If you buy food from overseas it has to be registered with the FDA,
and the seller facility(me) also has to be registered. This is under
the bio-terrorism act of 2002

http://www.fda.gov/oc/bioterrorism/bioact.html

Then you need a customs agent..This is where your Hawaii bound
daughters plan went wrong, you were thinking about cheating the Govt
out of a tarriff. The reason we chose coffee to import is that is is a
tarriff free import under the free trade agreement. No Tarriff ...no
customs bond. You also have to report your arrival 24hr before
reaching port.. We are in the process of declaring our cargo now. Your
cargo has to meet import standards...I lost the link, but is not to
complicated with coffee, and easy with roasted coffee..no mold
worries. There is a standard for green beans.

It's all he

http://help.cbp.gov/cgi-bin/customs....i=&p_topview=1

I used a customs agent who's been here 20+ years and walks the cargo
clearling process many times every day...you could do it yourself but
for a very resonable fee you can get an expert who knows all the steps
and the players who approve everything. 100's of people here in
Houston import coffee every day. After all it is a coffee green
port...do you know what that means? (No inventory taxes)

A bill of laiden is a manifest of cargo that shows the owner (me).

Again my vessel is un-inspected with no paid crew or passengers.

http://www.unols.org/publications/ma...m/03Safety.pdf

The boat is registered with the state and federal documented with a
cargo endorsement.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm

Then when Roger says you better double check you call Galveston MSO,
and the 8th district command and ask for a courtesy inspection and a
letter of introduction from the area command.. That's all ...Oh and
you have to find something to import that offers enough profit to make
it worth the effort.

Then work your butt off 16 hrs a day for a couple years while jumping
through hoops.

Hope this helps.

Joe

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 13, 9:09 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I think you've got it covered; especially the letter of introduction from
the USCG. It will at least get them to make some radio calls before dumping
your coffee and it sounds like the right answers will come back.

The moral of my story is: that's what it takes. I think you're good to go.

Ben Franklin said "Any society that would give up a little liberty to
gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

IMO any bording party leader thats starts slicing up a man profit
because he sails the same seas as smugglers has lost to the smugglers.
The USCG is out there IMO to help and protect merchant mariners, not
to hinder them.

You know..honestly I did not ever think I would have to defend my
cargo from the USCG. My dealings with them have always been positive.
Been through many complicated inspections on work boats and never had
any hassles. Helped them a few times helping others...but with 400K +
miles at sea I've never been stopped and boarded. But then again I've
not been sailing international waters since 9/11 and I can understand
why I should expect to be stopped and boarded and inspected.

Just like a traffic stop the stage is usually set if the first few
seconds I would assume.. If you did nothing wrong, have your paperwork
in order, show a little respect for the uniform (if not the snot nose
ensign)..you should be fine. Get an attitude expect big hassles. It's
not a two way street.

BTW one crew member on RedCloud is an x coastie..my brother. He's
boarded 100's of boats at sea..while serving aboard the Sherman WHEC-
720 IIRC. He's also crewed with us a few times racing in the Harvest
Moon Regetta.

Joe


--
Roger Long

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 13, 8:35 pm, Joe wrote:


Since its all about profit, lets try this:

I buy a 81'x24'x12' steel gulf shrimper. Make it my liveaboard. Hell,
rent out a room for $400/mo!
Fuel = 25,000 gallons in 6 tanks
Hold = 3500 cu ft
Engine (1) Cat 3412, 510 mhp, fuel 26.5 gal/hr (from Caterpillar tech
website)
Speed about 9 mph.

Think of 3500 cu ft cargo hold full of shrimp. Shrimp weight about the
same as sea water cause shrimp sink when ya throw them in the water
and ya don't see them floating on the surface when they are alive. But
probably there is some wasted space in the fish hold so figure 80% of
the 3500 cu ft will be filled with shrimp that weigh about the same as
sea water.

3500 cu ft x .80 = 2800 cu ft x 64.8 (weight of one cu ft of fresh
water) = 181,440 pounds . Damn that's a lot of cargo!

Lets say I drive that boat 1000 miles and buy 180,000 lbs of coffee
beans and go back to the USA. That's a 2000 mile round trip.
At 26gph and 9 mph and 2000 miles I'll run about 222 hours.

222 hours @ 26 gph = 5778 gallons fuel at $3.50/gal = $20,222 fuel
cost.

Fuel cost to transport 180,000 lbs of beans/ $20,222 = 11 cents per
pound.

I don't know anything about the buy-sell price of beans but lets say
ya gross $3.00/pound

10,000 lbs beans x $3.00 = $30,000

180,000 lbs of beans x $3.00 = $540,000 but subtract fuel cost
($20,222) = $519,778

Lets see.......... I spend the same amount of time at sea (sailboat v.
Shrimper @ 9mph)

Sailboat gets me $30,000
Fuel hog Shrimp boat gets me $519,778 after paying fuel.
And ya wonder why people ship by barge?!?!?

So for the same amount of work im making at least $489,778 more than
the small sailboat. ya, I know that a 80' steel boat will cost more in
bottom paint but at those earnings I think it wont matter. But you can
always back haul 15,000 gallons of high sulfur cheep diesel from SA
and sell it to your friends like you do the beans. Humm, whats the
cost of diesel in SA?
If its all about proffit then make it!
Bob

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 8:35 pm, Joe wrote:



Since its all about profit, lets try this:

I buy a 81'x24'x12' steel gulf shrimper. Make it my liveaboard. Hell,
rent out a room for $400/mo!

Then the USCG will call you a charter vessel so you better have a
licence and crew

Fuel = 25,000 gallons in 6 tanks

or 75,000 dollars

Hold = 3500 cu ft


Engine (1) Cat 3412, 510 mhp, fuel 26.5 gal/hr (from Caterpillar tech
website)
Speed about 9 mph.

Then what sets you apart from any other fossel burning cargo ship?
What makes you think someone will prefer your beans over Folgers or
Maxwell house?


Think of 3500 cu ft cargo hold full of shrimp. Shrimp weight about the
same as sea water cause shrimp sink when ya throw them in the water
and ya don't see them floating on the surface when they are alive. But
probably there is some wasted space in the fish hold so figure 80% of
the 3500 cu ft will be filled with shrimp that weigh about the same as
sea water.

3500 cu ft x .80 = 2800 cu ft x 64.8 (weight of one cu ft of fresh
water) = 181,440 pounds . Damn that's a lot of cargo!

The specific gravity of coffee is 55Lbs per cu ft

Lets say I drive that boat 1000 miles and buy 180,000 lbs of coffee
beans and go back to the USA. That's a 2000 mile round trip.
At 26gph and 9 mph and 2000 miles I'll run about 222 hours.

222 hours @ 26 gph = 5778 gallons fuel at $3.50/gal = $20,222 fuel
cost.

and a couple tons of emissions


Fuel cost to transport 180,000 lbs of beans/ $20,222 = 11 cents per
pound.

I don't know anything about the buy-sell price of beans but lets say
ya gross $3.00/pound

No... lets be real and say you gross close to 4 times that for roasted
hand sorted, sun dried, organic gormet coffee delivered in a eco-
friendly way. In a way that foster brand loyality from customers that
demand companies and products be as green and eco-friendly as
possiable. And while doing it you promote enviormental awareness and
feel good about what you are doing.

10,000 lbs beans x $3.00 = $30,000

180,000 lbs of beans x $3.00 = $540,000 but subtract fuel cost
($20,222) = $519,778

Lets see.......... I spend the same amount of time at sea (sailboat v.
Shrimper @ 9mph)

Sailboat gets me $30,000
Fuel hog Shrimp boat gets me $519,778 after paying fuel.
And ya wonder why people ship by barge?!?!?

That fine Bob, but you are missing a key part of the puzzle and would
be sitting on 180,000 lbs of green bean...That's OK it's not a time
senesitive cargo until it's been roasted.... but it may take you a
while to sell them.


So for the same amount of work im making at least $489,778 more than
the small sailboat. ya, I know that a 80' steel boat will cost more in
bottom paint but at those earnings I think it wont matter. But you can
always back haul 15,000 gallons of high sulfur cheep diesel from SA
and sell it to your friends like you do the beans.

Why try to skirt the law? That's when people get in trouble. Your
head would start spinning dealing with the restrictions to import
fuel, you get busted doing it I'm sure uncle sam would put you under
the jail and throw away the key.

Humm, whats the
cost of diesel in SA?

In C.A. on Ambergris Caye it's 10.00 US per gallon.

If its all about proffit then make it!

It's not all about the profit, if it were I'd agree. It's people who
put profit over the enviroment who have overfished and over polluted
our sea. That's the whole ideal, you may spend a bit more time at sea,
you may carry less, you may have to be more flexable in schedules, but
you can use your methods to created enough demand to make a fair
profit.

The only advantage you have is scale. Our long term goal is to
convert RedCloud to carry 40,000 lbs per trip...then

http://thomascranelibrary.org/shipbu...rscans/023.jpg

Joe

Bob

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 5:21 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
You are absolutely right Bob about the profit. The profit dynamics are why
the world is in such a bind about fossil fuel consumption.

I think Joe is after a couple of other things here besides a better cup of
coffee. Would you rather grind your way all the way down to C.A. and back
in a grotty old shrimper or have a nice sailing trip (assuming your are a
sailor and like sailing)? Second, is to make a point about profit and
sustainability.

I did some economic analysis of sailing cargo vessels back in the late 70's
and predicted that it wouldn't make any direct economic sense until fuel got
over the price (unadjusted for inflation) that it is at today.


Yeah back in the 70's this would have never worked..No one gave a
rats ass enough to use spending power to change the way things are
done. Today everyone from GE to HP are leveraging protecting the
enviorment to sell products.. Why because the people spending are
demending it.


With
inflation, we are still a long way from that number. Power cargo vessels
are still operating at speeds where slowing down just 10% would cut their
fuel bills in half. They don't because the over riding factor is how much
total cargo the expensive capital investment of the whole ship can carry in
its economic lifetime. Fuel is still a small part of that. The fuel cost
gets passed on anyway.

Fuel is going to have to become simply unavailable; not just more expensive,
before these dynamics change significantly. My analysis at the time was
based on looking at the cost of a sailing rig with maintenance and
replacement and then calculating the average wind velocity that would
produce the same energy as an equal cost of fuel oil. There simply isn't
that much wind out there except of a few triangular routes. When you then
factor in the total amount of cargo that can be moved within a reasonable
economic lifetime of the whole vessel investment, the numbers go right out
of practicality.

This is based on pure profit based on the current economic system. This
system is skewed out of reality by not fully accounting for costs. Instead
of industry, car drivers, an the rest of us having to capture and clean up
our emissions, others pay invisibly. If things like the cost of the
spectacular increase in asthma were all charged back to their sources, the
economics would become very different. Now that we are beginning to get a
handle on what the costs of global warming will be, apportioning those true
costs back to each gallon of fuel burned would completely change the
economics of sailing cargo vessels. Until society does that, which is about
as likely as eliminating all guns and other weapons from the planet, sailing
cargo vessels are not going to be the norm as long as fuel is available at
any price.

I disagree...People love guns and self protection. The public can
demand greener ways of doing things..the same way they refuse to loose
the right to bear arms. If I can be successful maybe the Chouest and
Lykes of the world will pay attention and invest in sailing cargo
vessels..


Still, the fuel is going to run out. Joe is going to have a good time and
get people thinking about these issues as well as bring back great coffee.
For that, I salute him.

It isn't about the profit. There are container ships for that.

No I beg to differ..As Wilbur put it Profit drive the system, and
unless you can make a profit you are just a side show freak to
corporate America. If you show a profit then others will surely
follow.

Joe


--
Roger Long

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 5:36 am, Joe wrote:
On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 8:35 pm, Joe wrote:

Since its all about profit, lets try this:
I buy a 81'x24'x12' steel gulf shrimper. Make it my liveaboard. Hell,
rent out a room for $400/mo!


Then the USCG will call you a charter vessel so you better have a
licence and crew


Hi Jo: Im a little confused............... The only diffrence between
my example an yours is that I would have a lorger boat and more beans.
Remember, Im just a guy going to CA and going to buy 180,000 lbs of
beans for personal use and take back to TX. In your example you only
take 10K and later 40,000 lbs of beans.Why would I need a license. The
boats at 177GRT so under 200 GRT and Documented Recreational use.



I don't know anything about the buy-sell price of beans but lets say
ya gross $3.00/pound

No... lets be real and say you gross close to 4 times that for roasted
hand sorted, sun dried, organic gormet coffee delivered in a eco-
friendly way. In a way that foster brand loyality from customers that
demand companies and products be as green and eco-friendly as
possiable. And while doing it you promote enviormental awareness and
feel good about what you are doing.


This is where you need to brush off that MBA you got a few years ago.
"brand Loyality" is a very slippery area of research. Think Organinc,
donkey, Kona coffee at $35/lb. That might give yo a good product
model.

Why try to skirt the law?

I can not belive you just said that! !! ! ! ! ! !! !

That's when people get in trouble. Your
head would start spinning dealing with the restrictions to import
fuel, you get busted doing it I'm sure uncle sam would put you under
the jail and throw away the key.


Yes, fuel.... meat... dairy and a bunch of other products have
"special" needs. But I am still very conserned about using a boat to
haul beans for your business. If you are a business in TX selling
beans. IRS will require your tax ID number and declare any proffit/
loss etc. from sale of beans. WIll you be deducting ANY cost regarding
the boat?

You maybe completely correct about the legal aspect of hauling beans
by boat. However, the advice I got from the attorney and cpa I used
were impeccably conservative when interpreting the various rules,
regs, policy etc. Bottom line I was in business and using a vessel to
conduct commerce. THey both repeated "ya can not have it both ways.
Youre either a tourist bringing personal consuption or a business
hauling commerce." They recommended getting a Coastwise documentations
and fulfilling the rest of the requirements.

But maybe in the GOM thins are a little more lax.
Either way, I'll be down there next season. Hope I run into you. Id
lvoe to shake your hand and have a sample. Hows that coffee go with a
mess of mud bugs?

Soon to be a Coonass again,
Bob

PS The gulf boat example was just a BS idea I had. I tried to pencil-
out how to out compete and haul wheat down the Columbia river with
one. But the Tidewater barges just had toooo much scale to overcome.

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 10:15 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote



The only advantage you have is scale. Our long term goal is to
convert RedCloud to carry 40,000 lbs per trip...then

http://thomascranelibrary.org/shipbu...enparker/parke...

Joe,

You know, I used to design ships like that and still can.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Barque

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Tship

--
Roger Long

Wow the Corwith Cramer is a fine looking vessel.

Are you familiar with CFR 251.1 Applications for construction-
differential subsidy under Title V, Merchant Marine Act, 1936, as
amended?

Do you think they have any construction standards still around for
Clippers to follow?

Joe

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 1:21 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
... The fuel cost gets passed on anyway. ...

Living on an island we are very aware of this. Currently the two
shipping companies in Hawaii have about a 29% fuel surcharge. Matson,
the major player in this market, has been bringing new ships online
that are a little larger and significantly faster than the old fleet.
They are using more fuel per TEU now than they did with the old
fleet. So, it doesn't appear that a straight economic argument is
going to move them to sail unless something radical happens in the
marketplace.

-- Tom.

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 11:14 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 14, 5:36 am, Joe wrote:

On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 8:35 pm, Joe wrote:
Since its all about profit, lets try this:
I buy a 81'x24'x12' steel gulf shrimper. Make it my liveaboard. Hell,
rent out a room for $400/mo!
Then the USCG will call you a charter vessel so you better have a
licence and crew

Hi Jo: Im a little confused............... The only diffrence between
my example an yours is that I would have a lorger boat and more beans.

NO you stated that you would rent a cabin for 400 a mo. That means you
are carrying passangers for hire. You as the Captain of the vessel
will then need a current Captains ticket. If you hire crew you will
need the same with even more Jones act regulations and requirements.


Remember, Im just a guy going to CA and going to buy 180,000 lbs of
beans for personal use and take back to TX. In your example you only
take 10K and later 40,000 lbs of beans.Why would I need a license. The
boats at 177GRT so under 200 GRT and Documented Recreational use.

You need to document it for commerical use, coastal with a cargo
endorsement.

I don't know anything about the buy-sell price of beans but lets say
ya gross $3.00/pound

No... lets be real and say you gross close to 4 times that for roasted
hand sorted, sun dried, organic gormet coffee delivered in a eco-
friendly way. In a way that foster brand loyality from customers that
demand companies and products be as green and eco-friendly as
possiable. And while doing it you promote enviormental awareness and
feel good about what you are doing.

This is where you need to brush off that MBA you got a few years ago.
"brand Loyality" is a very slippery area of research. Think Organinc,
donkey, Kona coffee at $35/lb. That might give yo a good product
model.

Why try to skirt the law?

I can not belive you just said that! !! ! ! ! ! !! !

I'm not trying to skirt the law. In my example of a tourist using his
own vehicle ( RV
) while on vacation to bring back trickets... the point was it's OK as
long as you declare them, and pay any custom tarriffs. The only
difference on a boat is you need to be a documented vessel to trade
with other nations.


That's when people get in trouble. Your
head would start spinning dealing with the restrictions to import
fuel, you get busted doing it I'm sure uncle sam would put you under
the jail and throw away the key.

Yes, fuel.... meat... dairy and a bunch of other products have
"special" needs. But I am still very conserned about using a boat to
haul beans for your business. If you are a business in TX selling
beans. IRS will require your tax ID number and declare any proffit/
loss etc. from sale of beans.

Yes we are a DBA ~ EL Lago Coffee Co. We pay taxes on profits and we
deduct expenses like any other company. Except that Harris county is
considered a Coffee Green Port. So when all the schools ect tax
companies they base that tax on inventory and equipment. Coffee is
exempt.

WIll you be deducting ANY cost regarding
the boat?

Yes, I'm using it for business purposes. Just like you could use your
car for business. You deduct the expenses that you incur doing biz.


You maybe completely correct about the legal aspect of hauling beans
by boat. However, the advice I got from the attorney and cpa I used
were impeccably conservative when interpreting the various rules,
regs, policy etc. Bottom line I was in business and using a vessel to
conduct commerce. THey both repeated "ya can not have it both ways.
Youre either a tourist bringing personal consuption or a business
hauling commerce." They recommended getting a Coastwise documentations
and fulfilling the rest of the requirements.

Good recommendations. Why did you see that as a brick wall? Meet the
requirements for a safe boat, fill out the paper work, pay all the
fee's and you are good to go. Sheeze my brick wall to get into a
boating business were I did not have 3 million dollars after Katrina
hit to buy a 110 ft fixer upper crewboat...was looking at the 3
million dollar boat before Katrina when it was only 225K, two weeks
after Katrina it sold for 3 million...timings everything.

But maybe in the GOM thins are a little more lax.
Either way, I'll be down there next season. Hope I run into you. Id
lvoe to shake your hand and have a sample. Hows that coffee go with a
mess of mud bugs?

Beers prbly better with spicy mud bugs.


Soon to be a Coonass again,
Bob

PS The gulf boat example was just a BS idea I had. I tried to pencil-
out how to out compete and haul wheat down the Columbia river with
one. But the Tidewater barges just had toooo much scale to overcome.

Well yeah...you might as well haul dirt.

I have another boat ideal that can make money...picking up old growth
lumber from the bottoms on the 1800's logging rivers in Alaska and the
PNW...But the initial investment brick wall is there.

Joe

Eco-Sailing
 

On Nov 14, 1:01 pm, Joe wrote:
On Nov 14, 11:14 am, Bob wrote:

On Nov 14, 5:36 am, Joe wrote:

On Nov 14, 1:32 am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 8:35 pm, Joe wrote:
Since its all about profit, lets try this:
I buy a 81'x24'x12' steel gulf shrimper. Make it my liveaboard. Hell,
rent out a room for $400/mo!
Then the USCG will call you a charter vessel so you better have a
licence and crew

Hi Jo: Im a little confused............... The only diffrence between
my example an yours is that I would have a lorger boat and more beans.

NO you stated that you would rent a cabin for 400 a mo. That means you
are carrying passangers for hire. You as the Captain of the vessel
will then need a current Captains ticket. If you hire crew you will
need the same with even more Jones act regulations and requirements.

Remember, Im just a guy going to CA and going to buy 180,000 lbs of
beans for personal use and take back to TX. In your example you only
take 10K and later 40,000 lbs of beans.Why would I need a license. The
boats at 177GRT so under 200 GRT and Documented Recreational use.

You need to document it for commerical use, coastal with a cargo
endorsement.







I don't know anything about the buy-sell price of beans but lets say
ya gross $3.00/pound

No... lets be real and say you gross close to 4 times that for roasted
hand sorted, sun dried, organic gormet coffee delivered in a eco-
friendly way. In a way that foster brand loyality from customers that
demand companies and products be as green and eco-friendly as
possiable. And while doing it you promote enviormental awareness and
feel good about what you are doing.

This is where you need to brush off that MBA you got a few years ago.
"brand Loyality" is a very slippery area of research. Think Organinc,
donkey, Kona coffee at $35/lb. That might give yo a good product
model.

Why try to skirt the law?

I can not belive you just said that! !! ! ! ! ! !! !

I'm not trying to skirt the law. In my example of a tourist using his
own vehicle ( RV
) while on vacation to bring back trickets... the point was it's OK as
long as you declare them, and pay any custom tarriffs. The only
difference on a boat is you need to be a documented vessel to trade
with other nations.



That's when people get in trouble. Your
head would start spinning dealing with the restrictions to import
fuel, you get busted doing it I'm sure uncle sam would put you under
the jail and throw away the key.

Yes, fuel.... meat... dairy and a bunch of other products have
"special" needs. But I am still very conserned about using a boat to
haul beans for your business. If you are a business in TX selling
beans. IRS will require your tax ID number and declare any proffit/
loss etc. from sale of beans.

Yes we are a DBA ~ EL Lago Coffee Co. We pay taxes on profits and we
deduct expenses like any other company. Except that Harris county is
considered a Coffee Green Port. So when all the schools ect tax
companies they base that tax on inventory and equipment. Coffee is
exempt.

WIll you be deducting ANY cost regarding

the boat?

Yes, I'm using it for business purposes. Just like you could use your
car for business. You deduct the expenses that you incur doing biz.



You maybe completely correct about the legal aspect of hauling beans
by boat. However, the advice I got from the attorney and cpa I used
were impeccably conservative when interpreting the various rules,
regs, policy etc. Bottom line I was in business and using a vessel to
conduct commerce. THey both repeated "ya can not have it both ways.
Youre either a tourist bringing personal consuption or a business
hauling commerce." They recommended getting a Coastwise documentations
and fulfilling the rest of the requirements.

Good recommendations. Why did you see that as a brick wall? Meet the
requirements for a safe boat, fill out the paper work, pay all the
fee's and you are good to go. Sheeze my brick wall to get into a
boating business were I did not have 3 million dollars after Katrina
hit to buy a 110 ft fixer upper crewboat...was looking at the 3
million dollar boat before Katrina when it was only 225K, two weeks
after Katrina it sold for 3 million...timings everything.

But maybe in the GOM thins are a little more lax.
Either way, I'll be down there next season. Hope I run into you. Id
lvoe to shake your hand and have a sample. Hows that coffee go with a
mess of mud bugs?

Beers prbly better with spicy mud bugs.



Soon to be a Coonass again,
Bob

PS The gulf boat example was just a BS idea I had. I tried to pencil-
out how to out compete and haul wheat down the Columbia river with
one. But the Tidewater barges just had toooo much scale to overcome.

Well yeah...you might as well haul dirt.

I have another boat ideal that can make money...picking up old growth
lumber from the bottoms on the 1800's logging rivers in Alaska and the
PNW...But the initial investment brick wall is there.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

PS..Did you hear about the war between the Texan's and the coonasses
on the Sabine river?

The coonasses were tossing dynamite across the river...and the
Texan's were lighting it and throwing it back ;0)

Joe