Ok, how's about a bridal from the bow to the stern with a riding block
that will allow you to adjust the angle from bow to stern. Use two
50% para drouges in series, spaced on a 10X's your boat length line
with a mid line sinker and chain sinker leader..??

So you toss it,off the bow, ride out a storm off the bow quarter, pop
a head sail as the storm dies, and use it as a drouge off the stern or
any angle to the stern.

Or you toss it off the stern to run from or out of a storm, decide
it's going to get real bad, and walk it to the bow to hunker down and
ride it out.

Joe

On Oct 24, 4:19 pm, Joe wrote:
Ok, how's about a bridal from the bow to the stern with a riding block
that will allow you to adjust the angle from bow to stern. Use two
50% para drouges in series, spaced on a 10X's your boat length line
with a mid line sinker and chain sinker leader..??


I'll take wedding night like that. It is almost worth marrying to get
the bride from the bow to the stern. I thought this was a family site.

On Oct 24, 6:25 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
That sounds cool although I would worry about chafe in a long storm. If the
bridal was short enough to make moving the drogue from bow to stern, it
would greatly magnify the force on that line. Being broadside, even for a
short time, while held against the waves could be a little terrifying.


You could use what is called a sliding line cargo block on as slack a
bridal as you choose. It a block that takes a load but has a loop on
top to pull the load back and forth along the line, you often see them
used in underway replenishments. The chaffe would be no more than any
drouge/ sea anchor. A agree you would want to turn fast and not be
caught broadside.

Question: If you have an engine running would you deploy a drouge at
all?



I think danger to leeward is either an issue or it isn't.

Thats like looking in a rear view mirror, I worry about the one's
coming at me. The only time I would be concerned about leeward calming
effect is if you are recovering something or someone, makes no
difference to how the boats going to act when hit from winward

If it is, you are
going to heave to bow into it and worsening conditions are not going to lead
you to start running off unless you think surfing up on a beach is a good
alternative (which it actually has turned out to be for a few vessels). If
you have the sea room, why not just run off to begin with and avoid having
to do any fordeck work like tending chafing gear or backed sails. Dealing
with chafing gear over the stern from the cockpit will be a whole lot easier
on most boats than going forward.

Guess it all depends on whats down wind as to bow or stern IMO. If you
have all the room to run with a storm then thats the way to go, a
small drouge just keeps your stern behind you...If you are dead in the
water with a leeshore then off the bow to slow all movement is best.
Like one powerboater here said, jogging into it the way to go if you
have an engine and the fuel.

I think I would opt for a fairly conventional small sea anchor as an aid to
a backed jib, perhaps with a line to the stern Pardey style.

Pardey's style is to the quarter bit IIRC and stern on a bridal
correct?

This would be
my tactic for conditions just above too rough to continue sailing in up
until there was any significant danger of being rolled. Most boats will be
dryer below and more comfortable with the bow into the wind as companionways
tend to be more watertight with wind from that direction. Presumably, in
these conditions, you have a reason not to be making progress downwind or
you would probably be just headed that way under bare poles or small jib.

Once the waves became a significant worry, I would ready the series drogue
and probably just cut the sea anchor loose since retrieving it at that point
would be problematic.

I think you are on to something with your two half size para idea (half
area; not diameter I presume you mean). That should even things out a lot.

If drogues were something where the performance could be measured and
compared the way racing sails can; I'm sure the series drogue would come out
on top. The first 90% of performance in things like this usually comes
pretty easily though and subsequent improvements become hard to quantify. I
strongly suspect that three to six conventional small cone type sea anchors
spliced into a long line would work nearly as well as the series drogue.
You could run the main line through the hole in the bottom of each cone.

Thats sorta what I have, after the para 12 ft there is a 4 fter cone I
took off a 35 man liferaft ...I figure one's going to be in the water
at all times.

It would be easy to rig and leave a bridal from the bow to the stern
and be prepared to launch from either end.

Better yet use weather routing, and have a well running main engine
and dependable fuel system to keep you out of drogue conditions.

Joe




--
Roger Long

On Oct 24, 8:15 pm, Joe wrote:
On Oct 24, 6:25 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:

That sounds cool although I would worry about chafe in a long storm. If the
bridal was short enough to make moving the drogue from bow to stern, it
would greatly magnify the force on that line. Being broadside, even for a
short time, while held against the waves could be a little terrifying.

You could use what is called a sliding line cargo block on as slack a
bridal as you choose. It a block that takes a load but has a loop on
top to pull the load back and forth along the line, you often see them
used in underway replenishments. The chaffe would be no more than any
drouge/ sea anchor. A agree you would want to turn fast and not be
caught broadside.


P.S.
Here is the type of block I was thinking about:
http://www.liftingandmarine.com/imag...ting_gear2.gif

As you can see it will take a load, and has a ring on top to attach
lines to move the load on the line.

Joe


Question: If you have an engine running would you deploy a drouge at
all?



I think danger to leeward is either an issue or it isn't.

Thats like looking in a rear view mirror, I worry about the one's
coming at me. The only time I would be concerned about leeward calming
effect is if you are recovering something or someone, makes no
difference to how the boats going to act when hit from winward

If it is, you are

going to heave to bow into it and worsening conditions are not going to lead
you to start running off unless you think surfing up on a beach is a good
alternative (which it actually has turned out to be for a few vessels). If
you have the sea room, why not just run off to begin with and avoid having
to do any fordeck work like tending chafing gear or backed sails. Dealing
with chafing gear over the stern from the cockpit will be a whole lot easier
on most boats than going forward.

Guess it all depends on whats down wind as to bow or stern IMO. If you
have all the room to run with a storm then thats the way to go, a
small drouge just keeps your stern behind you...If you are dead in the
water with a leeshore then off the bow to slow all movement is best.
Like one powerboater here said, jogging into it the way to go if you
have an engine and the fuel.

I think I would opt for a fairly conventional small sea anchor as an aid to
a backed jib, perhaps with a line to the stern Pardey style.

Pardey's style is to the quarter bit IIRC and stern on a bridal
correct?

This would be





my tactic for conditions just above too rough to continue sailing in up
until there was any significant danger of being rolled. Most boats will be
dryer below and more comfortable with the bow into the wind as companionways
tend to be more watertight with wind from that direction. Presumably, in
these conditions, you have a reason not to be making progress downwind or
you would probably be just headed that way under bare poles or small jib.

Once the waves became a significant worry, I would ready the series drogue
and probably just cut the sea anchor loose since retrieving it at that point
would be problematic.

I think you are on to something with your two half size para idea (half
area; not diameter I presume you mean). That should even things out a lot.

If drogues were something where the performance could be measured and
compared the way racing sails can; I'm sure the series drogue would come out
on top. The first 90% of performance in things like this usually comes
pretty easily though and subsequent improvements become hard to quantify. I
strongly suspect that three to six conventional small cone type sea anchors
spliced into a long line would work nearly as well as the series drogue.
You could run the main line through the hole in the bottom of each cone.

Thats sorta what I have, after the para 12 ft there is a 4 fter cone I
took off a 35 man liferaft ...I figure one's going to be in the water
at all times.

It would be easy to rig and leave a bridal from the bow to the stern
and be prepared to launch from either end.

Better yet use weather routing, and have a well running main engine
and dependable fuel system to keep you out of drogue conditions.

Joe





--
Roger Long- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 24, 10:19 am, Joe wrote:
Ok, how's about a bridal from the bow to the stern with a riding block
that will allow you to adjust the angle from bow to stern. Use two
50% para drouges in series, spaced on a 10X's your boat length line
with a mid line sinker and chain sinker leader..??

I guess I'm missing the finer points of this setup. It seems to me
that the bridle would have to be relatively short and tight in order
for it to take the load off the trimming lines. That's going to put a
lot of extra stress on the attachment points. Even so, when the
anchor is near the bow or the stern one trimming line will need to
take the full force of the anchor. So, the trim lines will have to go
through blocks that can take the whole load and will need to go to
winches that can take the whole load and the lines themselves will
need to be sized to take the whole load. I don't see what we've
gained by adding the bridle and block... I can, however, imagine a
couple of nasty failure modes that have been added. In the event that
the trimming lines run free the boat will broach back and forth beam
to to the seas. If the boat broaches through the wind the bridle
could sweep the deck. If the downwind bridle line gives way it might
fly across the the deck with deadly force. The anchor will tend to
put twist on its rode and if the bridle goes slack it could cause the
block to foul the bridle. There as some other issues including the
compromises you will need to make on drogue size. But mostly, the
mind boggles at the idea of end for ending the boat in survival
conditions. Still, if you really must then what's the advantage of
the line and block? Couldn't you do the same thing with a traditional
bridle (your trim lines) with the advantage that you could make them
long enough so that they wouldn't crush you deck?

-- Tom.


-- Tom.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:25:26 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

unless you think surfing up on a beach is a good
alternative (which it actually has turned out to be for a few vessels)

It can be a good plan but you need to pick your spot carefully..

There was a case a few years ago of a dinghy missing in gale. It
turned out that he had successfuly beached somewhere but staggering
around in the dark he fell into a farm slurry pit and drowned. Bummer!

On Oct 25, 5:24 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
Well, your sure talked me out of it

(Which wasn't hard.)

I think the probability of having to make such an evolution is so low that I
would just cut the bow sea anchor loose and chalk it up to experience. The
boat will head almost instantly downwind, easily with in the time of a
chosen set of low waves, and the stern drogue can then be deployed.

--
Roger Long

Yeah , I talked myself out of it to, problem is the load on the
painters to prevent swing could be to high, then again the boat might
find it's own sweet spot on the bridal. In real world conditions I do
not wan't to be testing new theory's without a CG Cutter standing by ;
0).

Joe

On Oct 25, 5:40 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote

Question: If you have an engine running would you deploy a drouge at
all?

If duration of weather and length of trip permitted, use of the engine would
be a good tactic. There's a good account in the old "Heavy Weather Sailing"
of a sailboat being blown out of the harbor at Isles of Shoals in a
hurricane and spending the rest of the storm under power with little
problem.

Much depends on the boat. Your boat, with a pilothouse and helmsmen trading
places warm and dry with other members of the large crew bringing them cups
of hot coffee would be very different than having one of the two people on
board my boat hunkered down out in the cockpit steering.


uhhh that's Sun Dried, Hand Sorted, Fresh Roasted, Organic Caye
Coffee.


The problem with
the engine is that the boat has to be managed constantly and a big reason
for using a drogue or sea anchor is to let the crew rest.

Setting a drouge on my boat will be at the end of a very long process
of other options, but something that has to be praticed and thought
about before heading offshore.


I think danger to leeward is either an issue or it isn't.

Thats like looking in a rear view mirror, I worry about the one's
coming at me.

I was talking about land; not waves. The need to keep a vessel from going
to leeward can be a deciding component in the heave to vs running question.

Oh no doubt!...I thought you were talking about the calming effect to
lee.. some claim makes a better ride when hove to.

Having a fin keel boat, I'm going to start with a strong bias towards
running since that's what she wants to do anyway. Unless I really, really,
need to stay to windward or am sure the weather is not going to progress
much beyond the point where only crew comfort and rest is an issue, I'll
just run off. Easy to progress from jib alone to bare poles to drogue
deployment without leaving the cockpit.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you have a ketch. Setting your
mizzen alone sheeted flat should set you up nicely to the top of the gale
range if your rudder and steering gear can handle the sternway. You might
need just a small sea anchor to help. You also have a traditional long keel
hull so I would be biased towards heaving to if I had your boat up until the
seas rise to roll over conditions.

--
Roger Long