Andy Champ wrote:

BTW ice yachts cannot make 146mph *directly* upwind.

I didn't say they could, in fact close hauled at those speeds they are
usually sailing close to downwind, an apparent wind close to directly
ahead.

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead
ahead.

On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead
ahead.

Oh yes it will!

"toad" wrote in message
s.com...
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from
dead
ahead.

Oh yes it will!


If only these ******s could learn to draw a simple vector diagram. They
would soon see there are no other vectors than one from the rear (motor
power) and one from the front (apparent wind drag). Duh!

The vector from the rear will be longer than the one from the front. But
the one from the front will effectively shorten the vector from the
rear. The result is a slower forward speed than if the boat was powering
forward in a vacuum where there would be no vector from the forward
(from the apparent wind, at least.)

Only when there is some wind other than apparent wind can you add any
sort of sideways vector to the diagram. The advert is WRONG! It
demonstrates a common ignorance that many sailor harbour.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"toad" wrote in message
s.com...
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead
ahead.

Oh yes it will!


If only these ******s could learn to draw a simple vector diagram. They
would soon see there are no other vectors than one from the rear (motor
power) and one from the front (apparent wind drag). Duh!

The vector from the rear will be longer than the one from the front. But
the one from the front will effectively shorten the vector from the rear.
The result is a slower forward speed than if the boat was powering forward
in a vacuum where there would be no vector from the forward (from the
apparent wind, at least.)

Only when there is some wind other than apparent wind can you add any sort
of sideways vector to the diagram. The advert is WRONG! It demonstrates a
common ignorance that many sailor harbour.

Wilbur Hubbard

Best way to look at it!

On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead
ahead.

It's flat calm. Where does the sideways component of the apparent wind
come from?

Ian

On 14 Oct, 16:12, Ian wrote:
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead
ahead.

It's flat calm. Where does the sideways component of the apparent wind
come from?

I fear that the Craptain has finally flipped and has created the Steve
Firth ID in order to argue with himself.

Ronald Raygun wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
Among other things, they claim to be able to create something from
nothing. The advert states, "Even in dead air the apparent wind when
motorsailing generates lift and reduces the amount of engine power
needed to maintain the same speed the engine would produce on its
own."
Huh? Tell me I ain't dreaming . . .
You're not dreaming, they're right and you don't understand physics.

Is there any more help that you need?
I had the utmost confidence that the post would usher forth the Looney
bin, perpetual motion crowd! Welcome, to you, sir. It's good to see a
Brit is the first to insert his foot into his mouth.

Well, perhaps the idea is that when sailing into a "dead" wind, the
sails be set horizontally, so that the lift generated by them is in
the direction which is traditionally associated with "lift", i.e. "up".
Like hydrofoils, these aerofoils would cause the hull to ride a fraction
of an inch higher in the water, reducing water resistance.

Alternatively, the idea might be to back the sails, which would generate
a sideways force on the boat, so that it actually travels with some
leeway. If the leeway angle is big enough, and the drag from all this
doesn't slow down the forwards speed much, the effective speed will be
enhanced by the Pythagoras effect. The helm must be instructed to steer
a few degrees off the intended destination, to compensate for this
beneficial leeway.

Ronald Raygun might be right, if the boat is designed in such a way to
take advantage of these effects. The actual effect proposed by NORDHAVN
will have to be known to know if Wilbur is entirely wrong, but we do
know that Wilbur is partly wrong because NORDHAVN doesn't claim any type
of perpetual motion, just that they can return *some* energy back to the
system to *lessen* the energy needed to propel the boat.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Ronald Raygun wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
Among other things, they claim to be able to create something from
nothing. The advert states, "Even in dead air the apparent wind when
motorsailing generates lift and reduces the amount of engine power
needed to maintain the same speed the engine would produce on its
own."
Huh? Tell me I ain't dreaming . . .
You're not dreaming, they're right and you don't understand physics.

Is there any more help that you need?
I had the utmost confidence that the post would usher forth the Looney
bin, perpetual motion crowd! Welcome, to you, sir. It's good to see a
Brit is the first to insert his foot into his mouth.

Well, perhaps the idea is that when sailing into a "dead" wind, the
sails be set horizontally, so that the lift generated by them is in
the direction which is traditionally associated with "lift", i.e. "up".
Like hydrofoils, these aerofoils would cause the hull to ride a fraction
of an inch higher in the water, reducing water resistance.

Alternatively, the idea might be to back the sails, which would generate
a sideways force on the boat, so that it actually travels with some
leeway. If the leeway angle is big enough, and the drag from all this
doesn't slow down the forwards speed much, the effective speed will be
enhanced by the Pythagoras effect. The helm must be instructed to steer
a few degrees off the intended destination, to compensate for this
beneficial leeway.

Ronald Raygun might be right, if the boat is designed in such a way to
take advantage of these effects. The actual effect proposed by NORDHAVN
will have to be known to know if Wilbur is entirely wrong, but we do know
that Wilbur is partly wrong because NORDHAVN doesn't claim any type of
perpetual motion, just that they can return *some* energy back to the
system to *lessen* the energy needed to propel the boat.

Stephen


There is perpertual motion. I will cite 3 examples, which are irrefutable.

1. Law of inertia. An object in motion tends to stay in motion
(perpertually) unless acted upon by an outside force. That's the law!

2. The electrons spinning around atoms. They have been doing it since the
beginning of time. The stout electron never tires, never wears out, never
slows down he just keeps going and going. What powers the little bugger? If
he required power the universe would have stopped a long time ago. He can
orbit under just about any condition, anytime and anyplace.

3. Electromagnetic waves and photons. Current theory has them going on and
on forever, never slowing down.

Our world is bathed in perpertual motion. One has only to look and think.

Bill