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#11
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 14:17, Andy Champ wrote:
An apparent wind from dead ahead can add nothing but a force directly astern. The case where a true wind from ahead can be used to drive a windmill that can drive a propeller to propel the vessel is different; but this requires a true wind. Care to explain why a windmill which is capable of powering itself forward against it's own drag can only do it with a true wind? How does it know if the wind it is 'feeling' is true or not, it has no concept of true wind which is merely the wind speed and direction at an arbitary stationary point. As far as the windmill is concerned it has a 20kt headwind and (alledgedly) it can take that energy, use some of it to hold itself stationary against the wind and _still_ have surplus energy to drive forwards. If it can do that you could gear it to the engine of the 20kt powerboat and save petrol equivalent to the surplus power that is left over once you subtract the energy required to overcome the windmill's own drag from the total energy harnessed by the windmill. |
#12
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
"Andy Champ" wrote in message
news:j-idnSDiMoeUio_anZ2dnUVZ8q- An apparent wind from dead ahead can add nothing but a force directly astern. The case where a true wind from ahead can be used to drive a windmill that can drive a propeller to propel the vessel is different I have such a vessel you can buy, she's called "Bhaskara's Wheel". |
#13
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
Andy Champ wrote:
BTW ice yachts cannot make 146mph *directly* upwind. I didn't say they could, in fact close hauled at those speeds they are usually sailing close to downwind, an apparent wind close to directly ahead. Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead ahead. |
#14
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
toad wrote:
On 14 Oct, 14:17, Andy Champ wrote: An apparent wind from dead ahead can add nothing but a force directly astern. The case where a true wind from ahead can be used to drive a windmill that can drive a propeller to propel the vessel is different; but this requires a true wind. Care to explain why a windmill which is capable of powering itself forward against it's own drag can only do it with a true wind? How does it know if the wind it is 'feeling' is true or not, it has no concept of true wind which is merely the wind speed and direction at an arbitary stationary point. As far as the windmill is concerned it has a 20kt headwind and (alledgedly) it can take that energy, use some of it to hold itself stationary against the wind and _still_ have surplus energy to drive forwards. If it can do that you could gear it to the engine of the 20kt powerboat and save petrol equivalent to the surplus power that is left over once you subtract the energy required to overcome the windmill's own drag from the total energy harnessed by the windmill. MY recollection of this is that with a windmill it's simply not possible to reduce the drag sufficiently to get a sufficient energy to make it useful. Wingsails are much better at it or even even proeprly trimmed sails. ASCII news isn't the best medium to get the point across, but I'll try. If one is motoring in a calm on a flat millpond then there is an apparent wind equal to the speed of the boat from dead ahead. Hoist a sail and you can make no use of that wind, agreed. However that only applies if you maintain the same course. Now do what any sensible bloke would do and adjust your course to make use of the wind as well as the motor. You now have wind in your sails and you still have an apparent wind. If you look at the force triangle there is still a component from the apparent wind. No doubt the craptain also doesn't beleive in back EMF or any of the other phenomena which appear to produce "something from nothing" however it's not the case that something is being produced from nothing and in this case the extra energy is achieved at the usual expense of not being able to sail directly into the apparent wind. |
#15
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead ahead. Oh yes it will! |
#16
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 15:28, (Steve Firth) wrote:
If one is motoring in a calm on a flat millpond then there is an apparent wind equal to the speed of the boat from dead ahead. Yet you've just twice denied that to be the case: "Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead ahead." "they're right and you don't understand physics. " If you must troll pick a consistent line of argument. |
#17
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 15:28, (Steve Firth) wrote:
If one is motoring in a calm on a flat millpond then there is an apparent wind equal to the speed of the boat from dead ahead. Hoist a sail and you can make no use of that wind, agreed. However that only applies if you maintain the same course. Now do what any sensible bloke would do and adjust your course to make use of the wind as well as the motor. Umm. What happens to the apparent wind from dead ahead when you turn and make "dead ahead" a different direction? Ian |
#18
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead ahead. It's flat calm. Where does the sideways component of the apparent wind come from? Ian |
#19
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising,uk.rec.sailing
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
On 14 Oct, 16:12, Ian wrote:
On 14 Oct, 15:16, (Steve Firth) wrote: Nor in the case of the motorsailer will the apparent wind be from dead ahead. It's flat calm. Where does the sideways component of the apparent wind come from? I fear that the Craptain has finally flipped and has created the Steve Firth ID in order to argue with himself. |
#20
posted to alt.sailing.asa,rec.boats.cruising
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NORDHAVN Rewrites Physics Textbooks
Ronald Raygun wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Wilbur Hubbard wrote: Among other things, they claim to be able to create something from nothing. The advert states, "Even in dead air the apparent wind when motorsailing generates lift and reduces the amount of engine power needed to maintain the same speed the engine would produce on its own." Huh? Tell me I ain't dreaming . . . You're not dreaming, they're right and you don't understand physics. Is there any more help that you need? I had the utmost confidence that the post would usher forth the Looney bin, perpetual motion crowd! Welcome, to you, sir. It's good to see a Brit is the first to insert his foot into his mouth. Well, perhaps the idea is that when sailing into a "dead" wind, the sails be set horizontally, so that the lift generated by them is in the direction which is traditionally associated with "lift", i.e. "up". Like hydrofoils, these aerofoils would cause the hull to ride a fraction of an inch higher in the water, reducing water resistance. Alternatively, the idea might be to back the sails, which would generate a sideways force on the boat, so that it actually travels with some leeway. If the leeway angle is big enough, and the drag from all this doesn't slow down the forwards speed much, the effective speed will be enhanced by the Pythagoras effect. The helm must be instructed to steer a few degrees off the intended destination, to compensate for this beneficial leeway. Ronald Raygun might be right, if the boat is designed in such a way to take advantage of these effects. The actual effect proposed by NORDHAVN will have to be known to know if Wilbur is entirely wrong, but we do know that Wilbur is partly wrong because NORDHAVN doesn't claim any type of perpetual motion, just that they can return *some* energy back to the system to *lessen* the energy needed to propel the boat. Stephen |
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