Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{)) We're
awaiting a response from my broker about several areas of interest, not the
least of which is the actual contract (the initial offer was a verbal, but
regarded as 'real' due to the extensive level of communication before our
return visit), but...

While we wait for that, there's a couple of areas I wanted to respond to.
Of course, it gets long in the telling/asking :{/) !

Choices are discussed...

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

(Discussion of modifications follows)

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

As it happens, both of the candidate boats (High Time and the 'cruising
boat' in STP) have hooks for a strap; the latter has the strap attached!

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...rency=USD&unit
s=Feet&checked_boats=1111916&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of
the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice,
also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas. The first is the real estate they occupy. The second is that the
port one has sagged a bit and impinges on the hatch cover so it won't slide
all the way back (well, technically, forward). Compounding that is their
simple covered-plywood construction, which has led to rot on the port cover,
and standing water in the bottom. In either case, I'd have used lengthwise
hinges instead. No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

In the case of the Nav, while the batteries in the drawer are certainly
slick, they take up valuable storage room and put some significant weight
outside the centerline. Secondly, the space occupied by the folding stool
is way larger than needed for a sit-down, and the folding stool is, to my
view, a very poor choice. If I don't turn it into a standup nav (the
original having been lost to galley extension), I'll certainly, at least,
install a swing-away, side-post-mounted stool or seat. I really like the
size of the 'nav table' - but bemoan the lack of storage outbound. I'd like
to do something like is shown in the M46Mod folder in my gallery, as I would
in the case of the 'cruising boat' in STP, for the outbound storage, and,
probably, do something similar WRT the drawers and storage, even if I elect
to retain that large space under the table for seating. Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

However, that hardtop is like being in the living room. With the enclosure,
or the screens, and the lighting, there's no reason we couldn't make that
our 'patio' for most of our activities. While this boat has two air
conditioners, I'm very curious to see if we'd use them. Our experience to
date in the Caribbean has been that we sleep with a blanket because we're
more than cool with a windscoop, even in the typical anchorage. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

OTOH, I'll start yet another battery thread in a bit to see what we might be
able to expect if we expand our capacity and do serious solar and wind, so,
HooNose?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods
above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

We'd considered that, on another boat we were very much interested in, but,
for this one, most likely would not do that, in that the V is adequate, but
not really 'large' and to make it into a pullman would not only be at a
considerable angle, it wouldn't leave much room for a workbench. This will
be our guest cabin.

However, back to the point - and, BTW, it's *55* and not just 45k
difference - part of why I'm so drawn to it. We'd asked for several areas
of work, some of which would be done on this boat as well. The shop we'd
most likely use in the STP area, and the one providing the quote, is Salt
Creek Boat Works. They've not given me a materials quote, but their labor
is at $45/hour. In the course of my looking and research, mentioned in
other posts, we found a couple of owners of sisterships who each had
craftsmen they swore by who did their thing at $30/hour. Since HT is on the
east coast, likely we'd use them for the few things we'd want done to her.

Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

* Tool area - build and trim: 70-80 This area is currently nearly empty in
terms of cabinetry, and has a washer/dryer. However, the watermaker, the
SSB tuner and some other stuff would have to be relocated. In the FTL boat,
there's minimal stuff to do, mostly in the topsides area which is all small
parts storage in the example (M46Mod in the gallery) boat.

* Salon seat - build and trim: 35-40 This project would also have to be
done in the FTL boat, as there's currently just the pull-out double.

V-Berth Achor Locker assembly 25-30 They'd put an enclosure on one of the
shelves, making it really broken up and cramped-feeling ,and impeding the
chain locker upper section. This would be removed. They'd screwed the
chain locker shut - this would be resolved. There'd been prior water
damage, which would be repaired in this process.

Aft Head fix or replace as necessary 15-20 Prior water damage to sole and
cabinets - replace as needed

Center salon water damage 20-25 Prior water damage to the corner of the
galley bulkhead and starboard vertical face of storage. This would be done
either with a laminate, with all the teak of the doors and trim retained, or
in teak, again. Can't be repaired due to veneer thickness

Step storage aft cabin 8-10 When we'd looked at an Endeavour 42, one of the
very nice touches was a step up to the berth, with a flip-up lid(s) for the
step face. Underneath it was storage; under the face of the berth were
batteries. The berth as it came is a full-sized athwart (4-4x6-8); to
extend it to queen (5x6-8) is merely an 8" extension inside the 'U' of the
berth. That could be left open underneath, with a step, or that space could
be converted to storage..

Teak and Holly floor repair and finish 25 - Various areas of prior repair
without T/H, or damaged locations, throughout This boat (the 'project boat
in STP, recall) has been sitting at a canal dock for 3 years. While it's
run and dived monthly, there's been no maintenance on the water-exclusion
part of he boat. Whether it leaked earlier, or has developed this while
it's sitting, there's some leaks. Anywhere there's water damage, they'll
track and rectify that leak as feasible...

Counter tops Galley area 20 - They need resurfacing to keep Lydia happy :{))

Salon Table change and laminate 6 - The current table is a monster which has
a butterfly/knee extension to the port side. It's very unwieldy as it is
now, so, we might

Replace with new table (build) 15 This would be a new table, altogether,
though we haven't quite figured out what it would be, exactly. Beneteau has
a really neat application in their newer big-ish boats which could solve the
problem of getting into a U and serving any large number - the table slides
out, and also opens to accept a leaf. So, it can be smaller until needed to
fill to the sides, and can pull out to let people in in any event. Going to
the boat shows, you'll also see teak furniture being demonstrated. In some
of those, the leaf disappears under the table, and that, too, particularly
if it could be mounted on the same sort of slide arrangement, could solve
the space/accessibility challenge of U seating.

In any case, all of the work specified comes to 218-259 hours Even if we
took the largest in each case, and estimated materials at the same as labor
(unlikely, I think, unless I have a totally unrealistic view of what marine
ply and teak veneer is worth), we're looking at a total of 23k to do it all.
I'm expecting it would be well under 20...

Back to High Time, in FTL:

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

I'd agree. The spec in the port settee rebuild included lee cloths. It's
already set up to extend from the base alone via flip-up from the
floor-to-seatbase, supported with 4 fold-out arms. I think I'd try to
figure out a way to relocate the AC from taking up the entirety of the base
of the port settee as it does, now, though!!

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in
contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

I left the above intact rather than reply inline because of the thoughts
presented tying together. We're getting closer to the realities of our
departure and balance of our lives, and recommendations of "don't buy
*anything* for your boat for the first year unless it's needed for safety
and boat integrity" are ringing in our ears. I *believe* (a survey could
prove me mistaken) the 'cruising boat' (the project boat) could be taken
right away, even though she wouldn't be pretty. Of course, I also expect
the same of High Time, but there *are* some things we know we want done or
to do.

One of the chief things *I* want to do is install as much solar as the top
will hold, and at least one wind (most likely KISS) on the Mizzen, just
because I don't want to run engines more than absolutely necessary. Beyond
that, she's mostly equipped, but there's the port settee, and the
batteries/Nav area we'd like to have attended to, as well as the
bound-to-be-surveyor-recommended mizzen step repair. However, we *could*
easily do without any of that, if push came to shove, assuming everything
worked as currently installed.

Which leads me to...

First, a brief background - I have some surgery which will need doing once
my concert season and my son's wedding are over (early May), and we both
need to sell our houses. There's other stuff which needs cleaning up in our
lives, but suffice it to say we most likely could not leave before the end
of this year's hurricane season, regardless of how quickly we got our
boat...

The current Good Old Boat and Cruising World magazines that I'm reading have
a bit to say about whether one rushes or takes one's time in getting from
one place to another. The CW issue I'm in speaks of the particular routes
one might take to the Caribbean, and how long they each take, including that
one might spend the entire winter season just getting there. In our case,
we'd be going from South FL, with our target being Saint Thomas. If we do
the gentleman's passage, it will take some significant time, even if we
don't do anything but sail, throw out the hook, and do it again the next
day. Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

So, that leaves the likely route of working our way down through the
Bahamas, and then over. Well, there's lots of people who spend many months
each year and don't wear out the Bahamas. Since 1) it's way north of our
expected usual grounds and we're therefore not likely to get back again any
time soon and 2) we have a complete set of charts from DAB to the Turks and
Caicos from our prior circumnav leg which was what started this entire
adventure, I'd rather expect we'd do some pretty extensive sailing around
those areas.

Then we'd likely do some of the same getting further south and east.
Meanwhile, the time marches on. So, perhaps we don't even get to STT until,
say, May or June. Hooray! Just in time for the hurricanes. So, off we go
to the south.

(You knew there'd be a connection, here...) So, without ever having hung on
the hook and doing our work-a-day world as we plan to do (work the high
season, cruise the off-season), here we are in Trinidad.

How about getting our work done there, where it's perhaps that much a day,
instead of per hour?? I keep plumping for that, but I don't think I can
persuade Lydia to forego all the improvements/modifications before we leave.
In particular, she's afraid of what laminate vs teak might look like if we
were to do that to the 'project boat' - which is currently pretty dark below
due to the color of the wood. And, so, she's very prejudiced against it, as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out. OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Curiouser and curiouser...

The world has kept turning since this original post a week ago, and there
have been some developments.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message hlink.net...
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration,
as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.
(clip)
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat, so, I asked
for some more information and followup from our broker. That didn't happen
in the week or so since I sent it off, so...

Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...60&slim=quick& -
which started this process (put us back into M46s) called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway. In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

We gave a 24 hour window, since the communication between the broker and
seller seemed to be constant and therefore would not be a problem to get an
answer. Sure enough, it came back quickly, with about a 4% reduction. It
was about as I'd have expected (not a serious counter), so I don't expect
we'll follow up on it.

However, my broker recommended countering at a level we know we can buy High
Time for, and I mentioned that, along with that I hadn't responded to *that*
counter, either. Panic set it :{)) (He hadn't known we had offered on
another boat.) However it happened, whoever was called, he and his listing
broker now think that *we* seatrialed High Time, that "nothing worked" and
that we rejected the boat...

So, I went back to my broker on High Time, telling him the story. Some more
is coming to light. First, he said, "I just spoke to the listing broker for
High Time. He said High Time had been sea trialed about two months ago, and
due to a broken belt the engine overheated and he didn't go further with
survey." This from the broker who said that there had only been "one offer,
not serious" on this boat...

He went on to say that the broker, "did tell me that the person who sea
trialed High Time has been looking for a boat for about three years, and he
won't have anything to do with him." Ya gotta wonder just how serious a
buyer one has to be (or how serious an offer has to be) in order to get an
offer accepted, pehaps incur travel expenses (don't have a clue about
whether the guy's local) engage a surveyor, and go to sea trial...

Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

It gets better. Followers of this saga know that an attorney owns the boat,
and there's thought to be some connection to an estate, as the boat was
listed that way, initially. The web site and the YachtWorld listing sez, "
'High Time' is an estate sale. She is a very special Morgan 46' with custom
features and equipment that justify the asking price. The owner bought this
boat for its strength and spaciousness and then set about making it
everything he wanted in his ideal boat." That's an obvious implication that
the owner died either after, or during, his changes, and the estate is
selling it.

So, my broker talks to him again, and gets this: "Could have been from
before the guy died. According to listing broker High Time is definitely not
an estate sale."

Hm. You'd think the listing broker might know a bit about his own listing,
wouldn't you??

So, here we are, with two open counters, neither of which pleases us much,
but the most achievable one is most likely High Time. Except that the
engine room didn't look *AT ALL* the same standard as the rest of the boat,
and with a relatively high-hours engine, plus the most recent experience,
we're a bit gunshy on that point. In addition, just as we can reject a boat
on the survey results and offer a lower price, the seller can reject our
post-survey offer and stick fast to his number. So, in addition to the
possibility that it will take rather more than we're able to pay comfortably
just to get started, we already know about some things which will require
attention, even before the survey, as well as some things we know we'd like
to do (more significant bux). *I* think we have to be prepared to take the
boat at the price agreed upon, given the history so far, and so we're
looking at some significant potential increase in an already uncomfortable
price.

So, we're thinking... We'll talk with our broker again tomorrow and see
what might be appropriate. I still don't like that the listing and the
reality, at least as presented, don't match. Unlike the 'cruising' or
'project' boat on which we'd gotten the repair/upgrade estimates, and which
I was able to find in my sold listings, so I have some history on it,
getting the facts on this boat has resolutely been stymied so far...

Of course, we still have the other backups - the several in the Virgins
which our broker over there's checking out, and the one which needs a lot of
work on which we have estimates but which Lydia really would prefer not even
to discuss - and more will come on the market as time goes by.

We still think we'll buy this boat - but it sure is more difficult than just
a bit of money negotiation!

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Curiouser and curiouser...

The world has kept turning since this original post a week ago, and there
have been some developments.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
message hlink.net...
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46,
whether shoal, deep, ketch, sloop, inner forestay or other configuration,
as
the layout and other specs so nearly meet our direct design parameters.
(clip)
So, at about 4:30 PM on 2 January, we made our third boat offer (the first
died on the vine, the second was the subject of a post about buying a boat
but giving it back).

The owner, apparently, is currently out of town, so we have no word yet on
our offer. Like every other offer, much can happen between offer and
closing, so we're not yet getting our hopes up - but from what we've heard
from the listing broker, this certainly looks like it will be our boat...

They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat, so, I asked
for some more information and followup from our broker. That didn't happen
in the week or so since I sent it off, so...

Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" -
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...60&slim=quick& -
which started this process (put us back into M46s) called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway. In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

We gave a 24 hour window, since the communication between the broker and
seller seemed to be constant and therefore would not be a problem to get an
answer. Sure enough, it came back quickly, with about a 4% reduction. It
was about as I'd have expected (not a serious counter), so I don't expect
we'll follow up on it.

However, my broker recommended countering at a level we know we can buy High
Time for, and I mentioned that, along with that I hadn't responded to *that*
counter, either. Panic set it :{)) (He hadn't known we had offered on
another boat.) However it happened, whoever was called, he and his listing
broker now think that *we* seatrialed High Time, that "nothing worked" and
that we rejected the boat...

So, I went back to my broker on High Time, telling him the story. Some more
is coming to light. First, he said, "I just spoke to the listing broker for
High Time. He said High Time had been sea trialed about two months ago, and
due to a broken belt the engine overheated and he didn't go further with
survey." This from the broker who said that there had only been "one offer,
not serious" on this boat...

He went on to say that the broker, "did tell me that the person who sea
trialed High Time has been looking for a boat for about three years, and he
won't have anything to do with him." Ya gotta wonder just how serious a
buyer one has to be (or how serious an offer has to be) in order to get an
offer accepted, pehaps incur travel expenses (don't have a clue about
whether the guy's local) engage a surveyor, and go to sea trial...

Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

It gets better. Followers of this saga know that an attorney owns the boat,
and there's thought to be some connection to an estate, as the boat was
listed that way, initially. The web site and the YachtWorld listing sez, "
'High Time' is an estate sale. She is a very special Morgan 46' with custom
features and equipment that justify the asking price. The owner bought this
boat for its strength and spaciousness and then set about making it
everything he wanted in his ideal boat." That's an obvious implication that
the owner died either after, or during, his changes, and the estate is
selling it.

So, my broker talks to him again, and gets this: "Could have been from
before the guy died. According to listing broker High Time is definitely not
an estate sale."

Hm. You'd think the listing broker might know a bit about his own listing,
wouldn't you??

So, here we are, with two open counters, neither of which pleases us much,
but the most achievable one is most likely High Time. Except that the
engine room didn't look *AT ALL* the same standard as the rest of the boat,
and with a relatively high-hours engine, plus the most recent experience,
we're a bit gunshy on that point. In addition, just as we can reject a boat
on the survey results and offer a lower price, the seller can reject our
post-survey offer and stick fast to his number. So, in addition to the
possibility that it will take rather more than we're able to pay comfortably
just to get started, we already know about some things which will require
attention, even before the survey, as well as some things we know we'd like
to do (more significant bux). *I* think we have to be prepared to take the
boat at the price agreed upon, given the history so far, and so we're
looking at some significant potential increase in an already uncomfortable
price.

So, we're thinking... We'll talk with our broker again tomorrow and see
what might be appropriate. I still don't like that the listing and the
reality, at least as presented, don't match. Unlike the 'cruising' or
'project' boat on which we'd gotten the repair/upgrade estimates, and which
I was able to find in my sold listings, so I have some history on it,
getting the facts on this boat has resolutely been stymied so far...

Of course, we still have the other backups - the several in the Virgins
which our broker over there's checking out, and the one which needs a lot of
work on which we have estimates but which Lydia really would prefer not even
to discuss - and more will come on the market as time goes by.

We still think we'll buy this boat - but it sure is more difficult than just
a bit of money negotiation!

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

You might want to check out Ebay...there is a 1981 morgan 46 that is
$75,000.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=2452681 009

You might want to check out Ebay...there is a 1981 morgan 46 that is
$75,000.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=2452681 009

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.




They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat...

Not trying to hammer at anything here, but you have only two choices... buy or not. If they want to entice you to buy by
lowering the price, you'll have to wait for them to come to that conclusion.




Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" ..... called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway.

heh. That was being polite. In that same situation, I'd have offered half.

In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

Which is what I mean by saying that you seem to be on the hook here. If you want to definitely buy one of these two boats
in the near future, you are going to pay a premium for that. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

.....
Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

Many brokers do wierd stuff. That's why they are in the boat business, where a certain amount of eccentricity is
acceptable, instead of in some more straightlaced business. OTOH that doesn't mean you have to hand them your money....

Good luck with the continuing story.

DSK

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.




They came back with a slightly more than 10% reduction, which is still about
that much away from what we're comfortable to pay for that boat...

Not trying to hammer at anything here, but you have only two choices... buy or not. If they want to entice you to buy by
lowering the price, you'll have to wait for them to come to that conclusion.




Yesterday, the broker on the extensively rehabbed boat - "Miss Munley" ..... called and said that,
yet again, the listing broker had called him soliciting *any* offer.
Supposedly, the seller calls *her* every day wanting to know about what's
happening. He sez, pushing, make an offer, saying - "I asked her, even a
really low offer? - She sez, Yes!" so I asked what he'd recommend. It was a
third off. Of course, I knew it would never fly, but we did it, anyway.

heh. That was being polite. In that same situation, I'd have offered half.

In
between, I'd asked him to send me a copy of the sold M46s from YachtWorld's
Boat Wizard that the brokers can see but we can't. By looking at the raw
data, I was able to track down the selling broker and the listing number,
and have compiled a spreadsheet of 23 boats sold in the last 4 years. Both
these boats (the first one being High Time and the next being Miss Munley)
are way in the high end of the curve of boats offered for sale in that time.
The offers we're making are in the high end of the average selling prices,
about 10% higher than average.

Which is what I mean by saying that you seem to be on the hook here. If you want to definitely buy one of these two boats
in the near future, you are going to pay a premium for that. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

.....
Put that together with the broker (HT lister, not mine) saying that at 20k
more than we offered, he'd "take an offer" to the seller (with the
implication that he wouldn't if it weren't that high), and that he's
"getting really tired of cleaning the boat" (topsides guano scrub once in a
while - it's obvious nobody's done anything below), I wonder if he's
independently wealthy, that he can afford to turn away folks with money in
their hands. (He won't have anything to do with a guy who apparently had an
offer accepted, and won't present any offer that doesn't meet his client's
[only] counter - sounds like a good way to drive off business...)

Many brokers do wierd stuff. That's why they are in the boat business, where a certain amount of eccentricity is
acceptable, instead of in some more straightlaced business. OTOH that doesn't mean you have to hand them your money....

Good luck with the continuing story.

DSK

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 04:45:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{

In the interests of limiting masochism, I've snipped liberally.


Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas.

I think I liked the IDEA of deck boxes, not knowing anything about
these particular ones...G

No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

Exactly. See how they work out. I think one forward of the mast, if
possible, would be nice, but that's often where the liferaft goes.

Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

I agree. Centerline, low and near the CG is the way to go. Inboard on
L-shaped settees are possibilities.

.. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

Too much complication for me. My logic would dictate that if I get too
hot, I would sail to somewhere cooler...anyway, I love simple, robust
systems that are accessible and quiet. Quiet is a big deal with me, as
is renewable energy, etc. A/C is nice, but that's why God invented the
mint julep....


Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

Cutters are great for the sail-handling options and particularly the
reaching (genoa staysail) and reduction (flattened heavy staysail)
options. Is the staysail loose or club-footed and is it hank on or
furling?

major info snip

Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I
want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

I think that would be stressful and counter to the spirit of the
voyage. Shake-down cruises (excluding safety/boat and crew integrity
factors) should be low stress where possible. Enjoy and learn from the
boat and the weather, and just take it easy until outside forces
require a harder sail. Getting one's sea legs is gradual.

For the same reasons, I would make a suggestion: Make Season One
(winter) very light on the cargo/supplies. Pretend you're camping and
don't load down the boat with the stuff (save spares, etc.) you think
you'll need for extended cruising. Essentially, you aren't going
extended cruising right away...you are puttering to the BVI and
lurking for the Christmas winds, right? If you are "light loaded", it
will be much easier to determine what's REALLY essential in a clean,
open boat with plenty of stowage. Throw in a credit card, half a
fridge full of food, two duffels of clothes and a toothbrush...oh,
wait...and BEER...and just go sailing. In the spring you can go back
to the States and cherry-pick from the storage locker you rented
before you left. I would be surprised if half the stuff you thought
you'd bring ends up on the boat...particularly if you have a
washer/dryer aboard.

as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out.

That will never happen. If you wait for the boat to be perfect, as
opposed to perfectly sound for extended cruising, you'll die old and
penniless G. There's nothing wrong with improving one's boat and
making all Bristol, but quite frankly, on extended cruising, you and
she are going to be the primary worker bees while passagemaking.

That's why a small work area for working in wood is very helpful.
Complex joinery is best left to the experts, but if you want to build
boxes, holders, and replace strips or planking and stain to match (or
cut and apply veneer, if you prefer), that's easily learned, or easily
finished profession by tradespeople.

If it's that dark below, paint the headliner, maybe. Upgrade the
lighting. Do the stuff necessary that gets you underway. If it's still
a big deal after six months, haul and redo in a cheap part of the
world where they have the skills. Trinidad's one such place, so is
Venezuela, as I've heard., although parts of there are getting a bad
reputation.

OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Well, it's cheaper where they grow it, that's for sure.

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

Excellent. Here's some titles I've found helpful:

http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog...ng/sellup.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255882-0336131

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

You've probably read them all, but they all stress the importance of
avoiding "perfection" in favour of "getting underway" G.

R.

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 04:45:14 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{

In the interests of limiting masochism, I've snipped liberally.


Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas.

I think I liked the IDEA of deck boxes, not knowing anything about
these particular ones...G

No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

Exactly. See how they work out. I think one forward of the mast, if
possible, would be nice, but that's often where the liferaft goes.

Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

I agree. Centerline, low and near the CG is the way to go. Inboard on
L-shaped settees are possibilities.

.. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

Too much complication for me. My logic would dictate that if I get too
hot, I would sail to somewhere cooler...anyway, I love simple, robust
systems that are accessible and quiet. Quiet is a big deal with me, as
is renewable energy, etc. A/C is nice, but that's why God invented the
mint julep....


Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

Cutters are great for the sail-handling options and particularly the
reaching (genoa staysail) and reduction (flattened heavy staysail)
options. Is the staysail loose or club-footed and is it hank on or
furling?

major info snip

Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I
want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

I think that would be stressful and counter to the spirit of the
voyage. Shake-down cruises (excluding safety/boat and crew integrity
factors) should be low stress where possible. Enjoy and learn from the
boat and the weather, and just take it easy until outside forces
require a harder sail. Getting one's sea legs is gradual.

For the same reasons, I would make a suggestion: Make Season One
(winter) very light on the cargo/supplies. Pretend you're camping and
don't load down the boat with the stuff (save spares, etc.) you think
you'll need for extended cruising. Essentially, you aren't going
extended cruising right away...you are puttering to the BVI and
lurking for the Christmas winds, right? If you are "light loaded", it
will be much easier to determine what's REALLY essential in a clean,
open boat with plenty of stowage. Throw in a credit card, half a
fridge full of food, two duffels of clothes and a toothbrush...oh,
wait...and BEER...and just go sailing. In the spring you can go back
to the States and cherry-pick from the storage locker you rented
before you left. I would be surprised if half the stuff you thought
you'd bring ends up on the boat...particularly if you have a
washer/dryer aboard.

as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out.

That will never happen. If you wait for the boat to be perfect, as
opposed to perfectly sound for extended cruising, you'll die old and
penniless G. There's nothing wrong with improving one's boat and
making all Bristol, but quite frankly, on extended cruising, you and
she are going to be the primary worker bees while passagemaking.

That's why a small work area for working in wood is very helpful.
Complex joinery is best left to the experts, but if you want to build
boxes, holders, and replace strips or planking and stain to match (or
cut and apply veneer, if you prefer), that's easily learned, or easily
finished profession by tradespeople.

If it's that dark below, paint the headliner, maybe. Upgrade the
lighting. Do the stuff necessary that gets you underway. If it's still
a big deal after six months, haul and redo in a cheap part of the
world where they have the skills. Trinidad's one such place, so is
Venezuela, as I've heard., although parts of there are getting a bad
reputation.

OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Well, it's cheaper where they grow it, that's for sure.

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

Excellent. Here's some titles I've found helpful:

http://www.sheridanhouse.com/catalog...ng/sellup.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255882-0336131

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

You've probably read them all, but they all stress the importance of
avoiding "perfection" in favour of "getting underway" G.

R.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:58:01 -0500, DSK wrote:

Skip Gundlach wrote:

Curiouser and curiouser...

Skip, by constantly staying in touch with these brokers, you are sending the wrong message. Go look at other boats. Go
play golf. GO do anything except pester these guys to sell you one of these boats. The message you are sending is
(loosely translated) "I am really on the hook and *will* buy this boat at your price if you play me right." You need to
walk away, at least for a little while. The odds are very low that either of these boats is going to sell in the next two
weeks.

This is superb advice. Sometimes being the boss means letting go of
the tiller...

.. If you want to hang on to more of your money, you'll just
have to play a waiting game.

You *want* to buy an unwrecked Morgan 46...fair and good...It doesn't
have to be either of these...particularly that dodgy lawyer-involved
one. The brokers sound a bit dim, actually.

R.