"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
Well, as those following the saga know, we've settled on a Morgan 46...snip...

Congratulations! I'm so happy for you. And, Hey!, give Lydia a big hug
from me! I can't wait to hear about your progress toward sea trials.

Frank and the girls

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
...
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley. If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

I'm always looking to make the bucks go further, so, assuming I'm getting
into a class of boat which can be bought new for that amount, or a sound
used cruiser, I'd still have to consider the fact of ongoing maintenance.
One of the brokers I've worked with is also a new Beneteau dealer, and makes
the point of the various warranties and new vs. worn condition of new vs
'used' boats. He's got a point - but if I could get a great deal more boat
in excellent condition, and have a substantial reserve for maintenance, I'd
probably do that instead of blowing it all on a new one, because, as they
say, "stuff" happens...

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

Heh. We'll do our due diligence on it. I'm not thrilled with the scenario,
and because I'm a couple of layers removed, and it's not been worth making
an issue of it, I don't know how it happened. I might get my broker to chat
up the other on the subject in conversation, just to see if he'll say how it
happened. The fact that it is listed as an estate sale, when, now, it's
clearly not, suggests the transition happened during the time of the
listing.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

Heh. At most lawyers' rates, it could be worse than the counter!

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
...
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley. If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

special height requirements narrowed the field considerably, and I
would like to see your "dream short list" if money and head clearance
weren't an issue, with an emphasis on stowage, passagemaking ability
and pure sailing pleasure. Like, say, you were six foot tall and you
had $250,000 to spend. What would you have considered in a used but
sound cruiser?

I'm always looking to make the bucks go further, so, assuming I'm getting
into a class of boat which can be bought new for that amount, or a sound
used cruiser, I'd still have to consider the fact of ongoing maintenance.
One of the brokers I've worked with is also a new Beneteau dealer, and makes
the point of the various warranties and new vs. worn condition of new vs
'used' boats. He's got a point - but if I could get a great deal more boat
in excellent condition, and have a substantial reserve for maintenance, I'd
probably do that instead of blowing it all on a new one, because, as they
say, "stuff" happens...

Good luck and I hope the deal goes your way. Frankly, the "lawyer"
getting the dead guy's boat sounds dodgy, and I'd check for liens,
off-the-books refinancing deals or whether the thing is collateral in
a high-stakes poker game involving a drug lord.

Heh. We'll do our due diligence on it. I'm not thrilled with the scenario,
and because I'm a couple of layers removed, and it's not been worth making
an issue of it, I don't know how it happened. I might get my broker to chat
up the other on the subject in conversation, just to see if he'll say how it
happened. The fact that it is listed as an estate sale, when, now, it's
clearly not, suggests the transition happened during the time of the
listing.

If you're lucky, it's legit and the lawyer will just bill you for his
hours spent selling it to you. G

Heh. At most lawyers' rates, it could be worse than the counter!

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
.. .
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley.

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

Beside the obvious reason for sinks to lie on the centerline (less
slosh, no favoured tacks for galley work, etc.), I find that I
frequently keep the sink empty to chuck empties and other light stuff
down the companionway to get it out of the cockpit (charts, hats,
rubber chickens and so on). You can get quite accurate with underhand
tosses. Probably not worth the effort, though.

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

OK, I didn't read your post closely enough, I guess.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Good, good. Screws have no place on decks, IMO. Through-bolts every
six inches or better.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

Very good.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))

We're a big race club and host a number of regattas (C&Cs, Mumm 30s,
Stars) each year, and we are gearing up to host more. Also, we have
insanely competitive club racing, and that's how I got a Kevlar main
and No. 1 for $400.00. Recutting them and restoring them from luff
tape to hanks and track slugs will close to double that, but they are
practically new and a Dacron main and No. 1 would run me nearly $5K.

The cordage is a bonus. I have short pieces of very expensive line
holding some of my fenders on G.


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

R.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Greetings and felicitations :{))

wrote in message
.. .
I think the galley looks quite impressive. I would move those sinks to
the centerline if they aren't there already, but you can't tell easily

The sinks are not on the centerline - the edge of the counter is about at
centerline (note mast position), and to do that would interfere with the
companionway and even the access into the galley.

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

If I were redoing it, I
could move it to the edge, however, which would be pretty close. However,
there are strap hooks, and it's not far off center, so I don't know that I'd
go to that expense. Can you suggest why it would be a good idea to spend
that rehab money to move it closer?

Beside the obvious reason for sinks to lie on the centerline (less
slosh, no favoured tacks for galley work, etc.), I find that I
frequently keep the sink empty to chuck empties and other light stuff
down the companionway to get it out of the cockpit (charts, hats,
rubber chickens and so on). You can get quite accurate with underhand
tosses. Probably not worth the effort, though.

from the photo. Do the tender and davits come with the boat?

Oh, dear... It appears I wasn't clear. The boat you're speaking of is the
'cruising boat' - and the tender and motor are gone, as referred to in the
original. However, the very stout davits do come with *that* boat. The one
we've offered on has no davits, but does have a roll-up and a new motor.

OK, I didn't read your post closely enough, I guess.

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...16&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice, also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

Or, as many would say, well-seasoned and seamanlike. I know you don't
require reminding, but I think your trouble spots would include deck
rot/wet spots (are Morgans solid laminate under deck gear? Are there
backing plates?) and areas like the partners, engine mounts, shaft

These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Good, good. Screws have no place on decks, IMO. Through-bolts every
six inches or better.

log, thru-hulls, rudder posts, steering linkages, roller-reefing and
so on, if not regularly upgraded and maintained. The habits of the
P.O. are usually visible (updated flares, wood plugs beside
thru-hulls, good selection of spares, maintenance logs, post-market

I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

upgrades in lighting, beefed-up wiring and so on--if half of that is
present, it's a very good sign). Mast work is probably needed, but a

Most of that is present in the offer boat, and the rigging is pretty recent,
upgraded.

Very good.

redo of all the standing rigging would be automatic for me before
extensive cruising, if only to provide a baseline for my time of
salt-water ownership. Probably a few new blocks and lines, too,
although I would use a ratty 10-year old sheet any day over an
original tang at the masthead on a 25 year old salty boat. There's
always another sheet aboard, and racers throw out hundreds of feet of
perfectly good dirty Spectra and Vectran a year at my club G.

Heh. I've got to come hang around your club :{))

We're a big race club and host a number of regattas (C&Cs, Mumm 30s,
Stars) each year, and we are gearing up to host more. Also, we have
insanely competitive club racing, and that's how I got a Kevlar main
and No. 1 for $400.00. Recutting them and restoring them from luff
tape to hanks and track slugs will close to double that, but they are
practically new and a Dacron main and No. 1 would run me nearly $5K.

The cordage is a bonus. I have short pieces of very expensive line
holding some of my fenders on G.


Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

R.

wrote:
I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it.

I dunno, you'd be quite surprised how fast $45K flies out the window when working on projects on a boat this size.
Remember, expenses increase by cubes

Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Morgan went througha couple ups & downs with regard to build quality, although their downs were not as low as some of
the other production builders. It sounds like this one was done right except for the plywood.


I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote:
I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it.

I dunno, you'd be quite surprised how fast $45K flies out the window when working on projects on a boat this size.
Remember, expenses increase by cubes

Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
These boats were solid hulls, and plywood cored decks with solid areas of
attaching/through points. Backing material on all stuff. The offer boat
has also had the screws for the toe rail replaced with through-bolts, along
with other similar upgrades on other attachment points.

Morgan went througha couple ups & downs with regard to build quality, although their downs were not as low as some of
the other production builders. It sounds like this one was done right except for the plywood.


I've not seen but one boat with the plugs next to the through-hulls, but
that's what I'll do on any boat I own.

Glad to hear it. So far, my 250 boat club is averaging one sinking at
dock a year from cocks left open, rotten hose, single clamps and the
absence of a way to plug the holes in the first place.

IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0500, DSK wrote:

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

True, but as heavy as chain and anchors? They frequently end up even
farther forward. Best case is to route the chain back a bit, but this
is relatively rare. My idea is that one side of a V-berth (with the
cabinetry stripped out, would make a good work SPACE, with fasteners
and small tools, etc. neatly stowed low in dedicated lockers, and
maybe with a small drill press and vise bolted to a bench. Big tools,
like hammers, axes, handy-billies, large wrenches, bolt cutters, and
the like, are best stowed in the engine room or in the bilges (boxed
or wrapped to keep dry of course). The bilges are also a good place to
stow ungainly stuff like the old stays you keep as spares to the new
ones you install before going offshore...at least they'll fit, right?

Some people dedicate a quarterberth to this sort of thing. I guess
it's an argument for fuller bilges than a lot of current production
boats, but if you can have two adults and maybe a holding tank in the
V-berth not bringing the boat down by the bow while underway, surely
you can stow 300-400 lbs low in the same space without affecting
performance...that's a lot of tools and spares if they outweight the
engine!



IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

Not to mention a collision mat/fothering sail, I suppose. I would
agree with you had I not saved my own boat thanks to a skinny plug I
had already in place when a ball valve failed at launch. Only took on
a few gallons, and was able to sail safety to a nearby travel lift to
haul and replace. But I agree that you can't be too safe. Of course,
the solution few people use these days are strum boxes and standpipes
that go above the waterline.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.

It's "strongly motivational", I would say. I changed an engine water
intake from gate to ball valve while afloat and that, while
controlled, was alarming enough.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Yep!

R.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0500, DSK wrote:

I've seen a couple of boats with this sort of layout, and it is nice... but the words "work shop" and "light stuff" don't
go together. Tools and spares are among the heaviest items to stow.

True, but as heavy as chain and anchors? They frequently end up even
farther forward. Best case is to route the chain back a bit, but this
is relatively rare. My idea is that one side of a V-berth (with the
cabinetry stripped out, would make a good work SPACE, with fasteners
and small tools, etc. neatly stowed low in dedicated lockers, and
maybe with a small drill press and vise bolted to a bench. Big tools,
like hammers, axes, handy-billies, large wrenches, bolt cutters, and
the like, are best stowed in the engine room or in the bilges (boxed
or wrapped to keep dry of course). The bilges are also a good place to
stow ungainly stuff like the old stays you keep as spares to the new
ones you install before going offshore...at least they'll fit, right?

Some people dedicate a quarterberth to this sort of thing. I guess
it's an argument for fuller bilges than a lot of current production
boats, but if you can have two adults and maybe a holding tank in the
V-berth not bringing the boat down by the bow while underway, surely
you can stow 300-400 lbs low in the same space without affecting
performance...that's a lot of tools and spares if they outweight the
engine!



IMHO plugs are not much good in most realistic scenarios of thru-hull failure. A plastic bag & some duct tape would be
better and faster to seal it off.

Not to mention a collision mat/fothering sail, I suppose. I would
agree with you had I not saved my own boat thanks to a skinny plug I
had already in place when a ball valve failed at launch. Only took on
a few gallons, and was able to sail safety to a nearby travel lift to
haul and replace. But I agree that you can't be too safe. Of course,
the solution few people use these days are strum boxes and standpipes
that go above the waterline.

I had only one experience in trying to hammer wood plugs into a hole, which thank goodness was a Navy training exercise.
I used to have wood plugs tied to all thru hulls but now I have two 'patching kits,' one stowed in the engine room and
one in the deck box.

It's "strongly motivational", I would say. I changed an engine water
intake from gate to ball valve while afloat and that, while
controlled, was alarming enough.


... Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

Agreed. And the boat sounds pretty good as Skip is describing it.

Yep!

R.

Greetings, again, to all you masochists following our journey :{)) We're
awaiting a response from my broker about several areas of interest, not the
least of which is the actual contract (the initial offer was a verbal, but
regarded as 'real' due to the extensive level of communication before our
return visit), but...

While we wait for that, there's a couple of areas I wanted to respond to.
Of course, it gets long in the telling/asking :{/) !

Choices are discussed...

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:13 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

(Discussion of modifications follows)

That's what it looked like, but the lens distortion was such that I
couldn't be sure. Still a nice galley, regardless...all you need is
two feet of secured webbing and you'll stay in it on all points of
sail G

As it happens, both of the candidate boats (High Time and the 'cruising
boat' in STP) have hooks for a strap; the latter has the strap attached!

The one we've offered on, with the attorney/owner, is

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...rency=USD&unit
s=Feet&checked_boats=1111916&slim=quick&,
and video frame shots of it can be found in
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery under High Time, along with some of
the
considered modifications at M46Mod, taken from Lydia's second choice,
also
very rehabbed, but even more expensive.

Wow. Considerably better, I can see, and STILL a pretty good deal.
Those deck boxes and the hardtop bimini are very nice. You've got to
love the nav station/workshop.

Well, yes, and no. The deck boxes leave a bit to be desired in a couple of
areas. The first is the real estate they occupy. The second is that the
port one has sagged a bit and impinges on the hatch cover so it won't slide
all the way back (well, technically, forward). Compounding that is their
simple covered-plywood construction, which has led to rot on the port cover,
and standing water in the bottom. In either case, I'd have used lengthwise
hinges instead. No matter, these, if retained, are easy enough to fabricate
properly or repair/upgrade/modify if worth saving.

In the case of the Nav, while the batteries in the drawer are certainly
slick, they take up valuable storage room and put some significant weight
outside the centerline. Secondly, the space occupied by the folding stool
is way larger than needed for a sit-down, and the folding stool is, to my
view, a very poor choice. If I don't turn it into a standup nav (the
original having been lost to galley extension), I'll certainly, at least,
install a swing-away, side-post-mounted stool or seat. I really like the
size of the 'nav table' - but bemoan the lack of storage outbound. I'd like
to do something like is shown in the M46Mod folder in my gallery, as I would
in the case of the 'cruising boat' in STP, for the outbound storage, and,
probably, do something similar WRT the drawers and storage, even if I elect
to retain that large space under the table for seating. Either way, I'm
likely to want to add to the battery capacity in this boat.

However, that hardtop is like being in the living room. With the enclosure,
or the screens, and the lighting, there's no reason we couldn't make that
our 'patio' for most of our activities. While this boat has two air
conditioners, I'm very curious to see if we'd use them. Our experience to
date in the Caribbean has been that we sleep with a blanket because we're
more than cool with a windscoop, even in the typical anchorage. Since we
don't expect to be at docks overnight, to use the AC would mean running the
generator, not something we're anxious to do.

OTOH, I'll start yet another battery thread in a bit to see what we might be
able to expect if we expand our capacity and do serious solar and wind, so,
HooNose?

Looks generally good and the price is good, too, probably because she
is well into middle age and cosmetically a little worn and old
fashioned in layout and trim.

Indeed. Yet, that's also the one which *I* think could have the mods
above
done pretty reasonably. I'm getting a firm quote this evening.

I suspect many here following "Skip's Saga" will be interested in the
number. The 45K difference in price is "not trivial" as they say, and
nice as "High Time" is, I would personally opt for $45K of custom work
to do the cheaper, if equivalent boat just as I wanted it. Personally,
I would do the V-berth as the workshop/storage area (light stuff,
naturally) with maybe a pipe or Pulman berth on one side, with a big
long locker beneath.

We'd considered that, on another boat we were very much interested in, but,
for this one, most likely would not do that, in that the V is adequate, but
not really 'large' and to make it into a pullman would not only be at a
considerable angle, it wouldn't leave much room for a workbench. This will
be our guest cabin.

However, back to the point - and, BTW, it's *55* and not just 45k
difference - part of why I'm so drawn to it. We'd asked for several areas
of work, some of which would be done on this boat as well. The shop we'd
most likely use in the STP area, and the one providing the quote, is Salt
Creek Boat Works. They've not given me a materials quote, but their labor
is at $45/hour. In the course of my looking and research, mentioned in
other posts, we found a couple of owners of sisterships who each had
craftsmen they swore by who did their thing at $30/hour. Since HT is on the
east coast, likely we'd use them for the few things we'd want done to her.

Back to the 'project boat' though, likewise, I'm still attracted to that one
for reasons not merely financial: It's a cutter, a deep keel, and already
has two very large solars and two wind generators (and a towed generator,
too!). However, these are the projects we'd asked about, and their
estimates (time in hours)

* Tool area - build and trim: 70-80 This area is currently nearly empty in
terms of cabinetry, and has a washer/dryer. However, the watermaker, the
SSB tuner and some other stuff would have to be relocated. In the FTL boat,
there's minimal stuff to do, mostly in the topsides area which is all small
parts storage in the example (M46Mod in the gallery) boat.

* Salon seat - build and trim: 35-40 This project would also have to be
done in the FTL boat, as there's currently just the pull-out double.

V-Berth Achor Locker assembly 25-30 They'd put an enclosure on one of the
shelves, making it really broken up and cramped-feeling ,and impeding the
chain locker upper section. This would be removed. They'd screwed the
chain locker shut - this would be resolved. There'd been prior water
damage, which would be repaired in this process.

Aft Head fix or replace as necessary 15-20 Prior water damage to sole and
cabinets - replace as needed

Center salon water damage 20-25 Prior water damage to the corner of the
galley bulkhead and starboard vertical face of storage. This would be done
either with a laminate, with all the teak of the doors and trim retained, or
in teak, again. Can't be repaired due to veneer thickness

Step storage aft cabin 8-10 When we'd looked at an Endeavour 42, one of the
very nice touches was a step up to the berth, with a flip-up lid(s) for the
step face. Underneath it was storage; under the face of the berth were
batteries. The berth as it came is a full-sized athwart (4-4x6-8); to
extend it to queen (5x6-8) is merely an 8" extension inside the 'U' of the
berth. That could be left open underneath, with a step, or that space could
be converted to storage..

Teak and Holly floor repair and finish 25 - Various areas of prior repair
without T/H, or damaged locations, throughout This boat (the 'project boat
in STP, recall) has been sitting at a canal dock for 3 years. While it's
run and dived monthly, there's been no maintenance on the water-exclusion
part of he boat. Whether it leaked earlier, or has developed this while
it's sitting, there's some leaks. Anywhere there's water damage, they'll
track and rectify that leak as feasible...

Counter tops Galley area 20 - They need resurfacing to keep Lydia happy :{))

Salon Table change and laminate 6 - The current table is a monster which has
a butterfly/knee extension to the port side. It's very unwieldy as it is
now, so, we might

Replace with new table (build) 15 This would be a new table, altogether,
though we haven't quite figured out what it would be, exactly. Beneteau has
a really neat application in their newer big-ish boats which could solve the
problem of getting into a U and serving any large number - the table slides
out, and also opens to accept a leaf. So, it can be smaller until needed to
fill to the sides, and can pull out to let people in in any event. Going to
the boat shows, you'll also see teak furniture being demonstrated. In some
of those, the leaf disappears under the table, and that, too, particularly
if it could be mounted on the same sort of slide arrangement, could solve
the space/accessibility challenge of U seating.

In any case, all of the work specified comes to 218-259 hours Even if we
took the largest in each case, and estimated materials at the same as labor
(unlikely, I think, unless I have a totally unrealistic view of what marine
ply and teak veneer is worth), we're looking at a total of 23k to do it all.
I'm expecting it would be well under 20...

Back to High Time, in FTL:

I'd keep the nav station for small jobs, but mostly just nav. The
salon I would alter to seaberths with lee cloths. Mostly, you'll be
two people only, not six, and if you have a second couple, they can be
in the cabin.

I'd agree. The spec in the port settee rebuild included lee cloths. It's
already set up to extend from the base alone via flip-up from the
floor-to-seatbase, supported with 4 fold-out arms. I think I'd try to
figure out a way to relocate the AC from taking up the entirety of the base
of the port settee as it does, now, though!!

Extensive cruising creates extensive wear and extensive opportunities
to correct and even improve beyond factory the effects of extensive
wear. My boat is sounder now than when new in 1973, but looks pretty
rough. Looks count for little in my book, and layout and "sensible,
moderate, robust" systems and ease of access count for a lot. Your

That's always been my driving factor, but Lydia's got a point in
contending
that this will be our home, as well as the difficulty of addressing that
later, with all of our stuff aboard, or, perhaps, not at all, when it
represents an additional expenditure and we'd rather keep in the kitty...

True, which is why maybe the cheaper, less cosmetically pretty boat is
better. Once you are aboard, you will quickly learn what works FOR YOU
TWO as cruising liveaboards, and you can "slate for demolition" areas
you want to custom refit as you can afford to.

So, I'd be tickled with the 'cruising' boat, but also can't deny that the
'offer' boat is extremely well equipped and in great condition right from
the start.

Sure, but the price difference is pretty large for boats one year
apart. Me, if the survey was similar, I'd pop for the cheaper boat and
custom refit the worst of it right away, and refine the rest over
time.

I left the above intact rather than reply inline because of the thoughts
presented tying together. We're getting closer to the realities of our
departure and balance of our lives, and recommendations of "don't buy
*anything* for your boat for the first year unless it's needed for safety
and boat integrity" are ringing in our ears. I *believe* (a survey could
prove me mistaken) the 'cruising boat' (the project boat) could be taken
right away, even though she wouldn't be pretty. Of course, I also expect
the same of High Time, but there *are* some things we know we want done or
to do.

One of the chief things *I* want to do is install as much solar as the top
will hold, and at least one wind (most likely KISS) on the Mizzen, just
because I don't want to run engines more than absolutely necessary. Beyond
that, she's mostly equipped, but there's the port settee, and the
batteries/Nav area we'd like to have attended to, as well as the
bound-to-be-surveyor-recommended mizzen step repair. However, we *could*
easily do without any of that, if push came to shove, assuming everything
worked as currently installed.

Which leads me to...

First, a brief background - I have some surgery which will need doing once
my concert season and my son's wedding are over (early May), and we both
need to sell our houses. There's other stuff which needs cleaning up in our
lives, but suffice it to say we most likely could not leave before the end
of this year's hurricane season, regardless of how quickly we got our
boat...

The current Good Old Boat and Cruising World magazines that I'm reading have
a bit to say about whether one rushes or takes one's time in getting from
one place to another. The CW issue I'm in speaks of the particular routes
one might take to the Caribbean, and how long they each take, including that
one might spend the entire winter season just getting there. In our case,
we'd be going from South FL, with our target being Saint Thomas. If we do
the gentleman's passage, it will take some significant time, even if we
don't do anything but sail, throw out the hook, and do it again the next
day. Certainly, as the first things we do on the boat, I don't think I want
to make a 'delivery run' of 10 or so days, straight through, if we're very
lucky.

So, that leaves the likely route of working our way down through the
Bahamas, and then over. Well, there's lots of people who spend many months
each year and don't wear out the Bahamas. Since 1) it's way north of our
expected usual grounds and we're therefore not likely to get back again any
time soon and 2) we have a complete set of charts from DAB to the Turks and
Caicos from our prior circumnav leg which was what started this entire
adventure, I'd rather expect we'd do some pretty extensive sailing around
those areas.

Then we'd likely do some of the same getting further south and east.
Meanwhile, the time marches on. So, perhaps we don't even get to STT until,
say, May or June. Hooray! Just in time for the hurricanes. So, off we go
to the south.

(You knew there'd be a connection, here...) So, without ever having hung on
the hook and doing our work-a-day world as we plan to do (work the high
season, cruise the off-season), here we are in Trinidad.

How about getting our work done there, where it's perhaps that much a day,
instead of per hour?? I keep plumping for that, but I don't think I can
persuade Lydia to forego all the improvements/modifications before we leave.
In particular, she's afraid of what laminate vs teak might look like if we
were to do that to the 'project boat' - which is currently pretty dark below
due to the color of the wood. And, so, she's very prejudiced against it, as
well as wanting everything 'just so' before we set out. OTOH, if we were to
wait, we could most likely easily afford to redo in teak, with the
difference in costs...

Decisions, decisions :{))

But, I tell ya...

It's sure fun getting there. We're starting to taste the salt spray...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin