Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e62c2e$0$10300
:

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you
may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.


There is no water vapor making its way out of the water trap in the top
of the boiler. Water doesn't run well uphill with no pressure. There's
a special trap in the top to prevent it. I've never heard of endotoxin
vaporizing only the various ...enes like benzene, xylene, all carbon-
based that are trapped by the activated carbon filter the water coming
out passes ever so slowly through so these distillable petroleum products
attach themselves. You can easily taste these in the un-carbon-treated
distilled water. The taste is significantly different after carbon
filtration.

Another sign is my water will not conduct electricity, even at 2000 volts
from my megger. Distilled water is an insulator uncontaminated. ONE
grain of table salt just touching the water on the other side of a
container of it and ZOOM!....The current goes WAY up! I cannot get my
polycarbonate containers to get the TDS below about 1.9 ppm. I think the
containers themselves are being eaten by the really corrosive distilled
water, which causes a tiny leakage in the electrical test.

RO water has its place. But, there ARE bad problems with RO if it is not
meticulously maintained. And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

(Richard Casady) wrote in
:

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:35:54 +0000, Larry wrote:

Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091021343611272-
jerelull@maccom:

We have a filter and dedicated "drinking
water" tap at the kitchen sink.


What bothers me about "filters" is the same thing that bothers me
about RO. Whatever is filtered from the water backs up on whatever
filter media is used, whether it's a paper and carbon filter...or an
expensive RO membrane. In an undersink filter, with no backflush
capability, there it sets...for months...or YEARS....breaking down
under the water pressure and flow into SMALLER, less filterable, more
toxic things. Once it has broken down far enough, it passes THROUGH
the filter into the drinking supply...bacterial toxins that cause
Legionaires' Disease is a good example. Viruses are so small they
aren't filtered in the first place! The filters aren't molecular
level. There are NO viruses in distilled water....NOT EVEN DEAD ONES.
Distilled water is safe even if the CIA pours Anthrax into the water
to reduce Social Security costs or for false flag operations to keep
us under control, a real possibility lately.

Am I better off filtering or drinking the water straight? Noone I can
find in the filter business wants to talk about what happens on the
pressure side of the filter element "as-time-goes-by". I can't even
get a straight answer from the SC Dept of Health and Environmental
Control on this subject. This may be because every coffee pot in
every restaurant has this little metal filter in its water supply line
that is NEVER changed unless the whole machine changes. I'm sure glad
it's boiled before I drink it! The iced tea is NOT! Most of it is
just water poured in as the tea brews...filtered, of course.

You say that viruses are smaller than sodium or chloride ions? I got
A's in college chemistry, and I have trouble believing it.

You say an RO filter doesn't work at molecular level? Just what would
call it then?

Casady


I quoted it all so you can re-read it. I was referring to those nasty
water filters on all the water-based drinking equipment at any restaurant
on the coke machine, coffee pots, tea making equipment...

The filters fill up with crap the first week that sit against the filter
medium deteriorating into whatever pressure does to them.....LONG before
anyone ever changes them because they are totally clogged....yecch.

Case in point is the filter behind anyone's refridgerator that feeds the
ice machine. When was the last time it was changed? 1992??!!

At least SOME RO operators will flush out the big stuff...sometimes.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091120440443658-
jerelull@maccom:

As I understand him from the past, the viruses are broken down to toxic
chemicals that will pass.



The bacteria, not viruses, contain the toxins that make you sick. The
toxins are as small or smaller than the water molecules....and flow through
as soon as the bacteria are crushed by the pressure as they deteriorate
from the flow and pressures.

Are there viruses as small as H2O? Yes, there are....

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091120440443658-
jerelull@maccom:

You say that viruses are smaller than sodium or chloride ions? I got
A's in college chemistry, and I have trouble believing it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:W...dimensions.svg

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?
&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0 735750

See. I think the chart on this RO-promotion website is very telling....
http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/rejection.htm
It says RO passes the pollutants test from NSF 58 on the left column and
REDUCES/rejects the pollutants on the right column. Reduces? It doesn't
say HOW MUCH it reduces. I find this omission on lots of "charts" like
this one telling me we're not hearing the full story.

http://www.pwgazette.com/tfc.htm
Here's a "partial list" that does show the percentages.....
94-96% of arsenic. How much arsenic should we drink?
95-98% of the radioactivity. I hope there's no radioactivity in your
seawater, but there is. Again, is this too much?
99% of the viruses. Will 1% of the herpes viruses in my glass give me
herpes? YES IT WILL...just like the 3% of the radium will cause cancer
in laboratory humans.

RO is a FILTER, that lets a fair percentage of the bad stuff flow
through. These numbers come from an RO company. Are they higher than
reality in an RO system with a 3-year-old membrane that's been running on
a boat filtering seawater? I'd suspect they'd be quite optimistic
numbers on an older membrane.....


Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

(Richard Casady) wrote in
:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:32:59 +0000, Larry wrote:

Works great,
change it every 100 gallons or when the water starts tasting slightly
metallic, indicating the carbon has loaded up with benzene, which
distillers also distill out of the water.

The CRC lists 15 substances with the same boiling point as water.
A simple still won't even remove alcohol or methanol, or acetic acid.
Of the hundreds of known chemicals with boiling points near water,
few, fortunately, are likely to be found in high seas water. Some
rivers are a different story. I would't trust some river water not to
attack gelcoat or aluminum. You wouldn't have the urge to put it in a
nice clean still. Distillation is OK but it costs a lot. In my
opinion, either RO or distilled water should be run through a carbon
filter. Gets the benzene and a lot more. Carbon ought to take out
'plastic taste' but I have not put it to the test.

Casady


The test is the TDS meter and electrical conductivity. Distilled water
is an insulator. These carbon-based chemicals you list attach themselves
very nicely to the carbon molecules in the activated carbon filter. That
filter gets quite hot in their presence during use, even at the tiny
trickle of water coming from a small distiller.

Even at 2000VDC my water is barely conducting. It's a very good
insulator after carbon filtration. Another indication of its purity is
it is very corrosive and simply guzzles anything that will dissolve in
it....which is what its use is in the human body.



Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

"Larry" wrote in message
...
I quoted it all so you can re-read it. I was referring to those nasty
water filters on all the water-based drinking equipment at any restaurant
on the coke machine, coffee pots, tea making equipment...

The filters fill up with crap the first week that sit against the filter
medium deteriorating into whatever pressure does to them.....LONG before
anyone ever changes them because they are totally clogged....yecch.

Case in point is the filter behind anyone's refridgerator that feeds the
ice machine. When was the last time it was changed? 1992??!!

At least SOME RO operators will flush out the big stuff...sometimes.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Larry, the metal filters in coffemakers can be cleaned (and should be, once
a month or so) with plain white distilled vinegar. Dunno if this also
applies to the other machines you mention.

Larry wrote:
Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e62c2e$0$10300
:

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you
may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.


There is no water vapor making its way out of the water trap in the top
of the boiler. Water doesn't run well uphill with no pressure.

Water vapor runs 'uphill' very efficiently, since it weighs much less
than air (ever see a cloud?). Water vapor - what you can actually see -
is not steam, it's water. And that vapor can carryover all kinds of
things if not removed.

There's
a special trap in the top to prevent it.

That's the point I was making - a simple demister like your still likely
has is not nearly as efficient as you may think it is. Hence the use of
cyclonic separators in many (depending on design) industrial stills, to
remove vapor and low molecular contaminants more effectively without a
huge hit on distillation efficiency.

I've never heard of endotoxin vaporizing only the various...enes like benzene, xylene, all carbon-

It doesn't vaporize, it becomes entrained in the water vapor.


based that are trapped by the activated carbon filter the water coming
out passes ever so slowly through so these distillable petroleum products
attach themselves. You can easily taste these in the un-carbon-treated
distilled water. The taste is significantly different after carbon
filtration.

Another sign is my water will not conduct electricity, even at 2000 volts
from my megger. Distilled water is an insulator uncontaminated.

I think you'll find that distilled water (unless it's distilled in
glass) will have a resistivity of about 2 megohms/cm, versus DI water at
~18 megohms/cm. There's more than enough ions released by the stainless
to drop the resistivity (increase conductivity) significantly when
compared to DI water.

ONE
grain of table salt just touching the water on the other side of a
container of it and ZOOM!....The current goes WAY up! I cannot get my
polycarbonate containers to get the TDS below about 1.9 ppm. I think the
containers themselves are being eaten by the really corrosive distilled
water, which causes a tiny leakage in the electrical test.

RO water has its place. But, there ARE bad problems with RO if it is not
meticulously maintained. And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

You say that like everyone is feeding wastewater into their RO. With
simple maintenance, they can be very effective, and very safe,
especially when you're talking about desalinization. But take a look at
commercial (real) stills and look at the performance specs. Check
Stilmas, Steris/Finn-Aqua, Mueller, etc. You'll find that they will
provide a 3-log reduction of endotoxins, and they will not effect a
significant reduction in over TOC, so you can't dump sewage in a still
and be assured of pristine pure water coming out. Yes you *can* do that
with distillation, but you have to accept a 10 or 20 fold reduction in
efficiency to ensure that absolutely *no* vapor is carried over. That
doesn't sell well.

I'm not saying that your still is not effective, and not a good way to
make clean water. It's just not nearly as effective and foolproof as you
want to claim.

Keith Hughes

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:48:17 +0000, Larry wrote:

And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

There is a simple test for chlorides: just add a drop of silver
nitrate solution to a sample. Any hint of cloudiness would indicate a
leak. This is how the steamship boys tested their boiler water for
leaks in the condenser. Your conductivity test should also find a hole
in the membrane. I also think there are many who would
not bother to check: you may be right about 'too much faith'.
Lots of people simply trust the stuff to be good, when they fill up
with whatever comes out of the hose at the marina. It wouldn't be that
hard to add a conductivity meter to the RO equipment at the factory.
How often do the membranes fail, anyway?

Casady

Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e77321$0$3576
:

With
simple maintenance, they can be very effective, and very safe,
especially when you're talking about desalinization.

Now, all we have to do is get the busy lawyer, who can't replace batteries
in a flashlight twice in a row resulting in a usable flashlight, to do this
maintenance....in his busy life chasing money.

It doesn't happen on our docks. It would happen on a boat owned by a
hermit, bored to tears out there on the hook. The hermit has plenty of
time to do boat maintenance, some their only reason for living.

Larry
--
I've watched a lawyer fixing a head. It would be hilarious to watch him
fixing a complex RO system!...(c;

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 03:31:14 +0000, Larry wrote:

The test is the TDS meter and electrical conductivity. Distilled water
is an insulator. These carbon-based chemicals you list attach themselves
very nicely to the carbon molecules in the activated carbon filter. That
filter gets quite hot in their presence during use, even at the tiny
trickle of water coming from a small distiller.

Gasoline is an insulator. Conductivity tests only detect ions.
Hydrocarbons do not ionize and are really good insulators. They fill
transformers that operate at hundreds of thousands of volts, with oil.
By the way, there is no such thing as a carbon molecule.

Casady