Larry wrote:
Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091021343611272-
jerelull@maccom:

We have a filter and dedicated "drinking
water" tap at the kitchen sink.


What bothers me about "filters" is the same thing that bothers me about
RO. Whatever is filtered from the water backs up on whatever filter
media is used, whether it's a paper and carbon filter...or an expensive
RO membrane. In an undersink filter, with no backflush capability, there
it sets...for months...or YEARS....breaking down under the water pressure
and flow into SMALLER, less filterable, more toxic things. Once it has
broken down far enough, it passes THROUGH the filter into the drinking
supply...bacterial toxins that cause Legionaires' Disease is a good
example.

Uhmmm, no that's not an example at all, let alone a good one.
Legionnair's disease is not caused by broken down anything, or by
bacterial *toxins*, it's caused by an infection with the bacterium
Legionella pneumophila.

Viruses are so small they aren't filtered in the first place!
The filters aren't molecular level. There are NO viruses in distilled
water....NOT EVEN DEAD ONES. Distilled water is safe even if the CIA
pours Anthrax into the water to reduce Social Security costs or for false
flag operations to keep us under control, a real possibility lately.

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.

Am I better off filtering or drinking the water straight? Noone I can
find in the filter business wants to talk about what happens on the
pressure side of the filter element "as-time-goes-by".

Then you're not talking to knowledgeable people. Just Google Minncare
and you'll find what most everyone uses for biofilm control. As time
goes by, a biofilm will build up without proper maintenance.

I can't even get
a straight answer from the SC Dept of Health and Environmental Control on
this subject. This may be because every coffee pot in every restaurant
has this little metal filter in its water supply line that is NEVER
changed unless the whole machine changes. I'm sure glad it's boiled
before I drink it! The iced tea is NOT! Most of it is just water poured
in as the tea brews...filtered, of course.

Well Larry, rail as you will about RO, but you can make Water for
Injection with double pass RO. That's injection, in your veins, and you
worry about drinking it? Granted, there's a further *sterilization*
step, but that has nothing to do with all the "toxins" you seem obsessed
with.

Keith Hughes

Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e62c2e$0$10300
:

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you
may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.


There is no water vapor making its way out of the water trap in the top
of the boiler. Water doesn't run well uphill with no pressure. There's
a special trap in the top to prevent it. I've never heard of endotoxin
vaporizing only the various ...enes like benzene, xylene, all carbon-
based that are trapped by the activated carbon filter the water coming
out passes ever so slowly through so these distillable petroleum products
attach themselves. You can easily taste these in the un-carbon-treated
distilled water. The taste is significantly different after carbon
filtration.

Another sign is my water will not conduct electricity, even at 2000 volts
from my megger. Distilled water is an insulator uncontaminated. ONE
grain of table salt just touching the water on the other side of a
container of it and ZOOM!....The current goes WAY up! I cannot get my
polycarbonate containers to get the TDS below about 1.9 ppm. I think the
containers themselves are being eaten by the really corrosive distilled
water, which causes a tiny leakage in the electrical test.

RO water has its place. But, there ARE bad problems with RO if it is not
meticulously maintained. And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Larry wrote:
Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e62c2e$0$10300
:

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you
may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.


There is no water vapor making its way out of the water trap in the top
of the boiler. Water doesn't run well uphill with no pressure.

Water vapor runs 'uphill' very efficiently, since it weighs much less
than air (ever see a cloud?). Water vapor - what you can actually see -
is not steam, it's water. And that vapor can carryover all kinds of
things if not removed.

There's
a special trap in the top to prevent it.

That's the point I was making - a simple demister like your still likely
has is not nearly as efficient as you may think it is. Hence the use of
cyclonic separators in many (depending on design) industrial stills, to
remove vapor and low molecular contaminants more effectively without a
huge hit on distillation efficiency.

I've never heard of endotoxin vaporizing only the various...enes like benzene, xylene, all carbon-

It doesn't vaporize, it becomes entrained in the water vapor.


based that are trapped by the activated carbon filter the water coming
out passes ever so slowly through so these distillable petroleum products
attach themselves. You can easily taste these in the un-carbon-treated
distilled water. The taste is significantly different after carbon
filtration.

Another sign is my water will not conduct electricity, even at 2000 volts
from my megger. Distilled water is an insulator uncontaminated.

I think you'll find that distilled water (unless it's distilled in
glass) will have a resistivity of about 2 megohms/cm, versus DI water at
~18 megohms/cm. There's more than enough ions released by the stainless
to drop the resistivity (increase conductivity) significantly when
compared to DI water.

ONE
grain of table salt just touching the water on the other side of a
container of it and ZOOM!....The current goes WAY up! I cannot get my
polycarbonate containers to get the TDS below about 1.9 ppm. I think the
containers themselves are being eaten by the really corrosive distilled
water, which causes a tiny leakage in the electrical test.

RO water has its place. But, there ARE bad problems with RO if it is not
meticulously maintained. And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

You say that like everyone is feeding wastewater into their RO. With
simple maintenance, they can be very effective, and very safe,
especially when you're talking about desalinization. But take a look at
commercial (real) stills and look at the performance specs. Check
Stilmas, Steris/Finn-Aqua, Mueller, etc. You'll find that they will
provide a 3-log reduction of endotoxins, and they will not effect a
significant reduction in over TOC, so you can't dump sewage in a still
and be assured of pristine pure water coming out. Yes you *can* do that
with distillation, but you have to accept a 10 or 20 fold reduction in
efficiency to ensure that absolutely *no* vapor is carried over. That
doesn't sell well.

I'm not saying that your still is not effective, and not a good way to
make clean water. It's just not nearly as effective and foolproof as you
want to claim.

Keith Hughes

Keith Hughes wrote in news:46e77321$0$3576
:

With
simple maintenance, they can be very effective, and very safe,
especially when you're talking about desalinization.

Now, all we have to do is get the busy lawyer, who can't replace batteries
in a flashlight twice in a row resulting in a usable flashlight, to do this
maintenance....in his busy life chasing money.

It doesn't happen on our docks. It would happen on a boat owned by a
hermit, bored to tears out there on the hook. The hermit has plenty of
time to do boat maintenance, some their only reason for living.

Larry
--
I've watched a lawyer fixing a head. It would be hilarious to watch him
fixing a complex RO system!...(c;

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:03:31 -0700, Keith Hughes
wrote:

Water vapor - what you can actually see -

Water vapor is a gas and is invisible. Steam is the vapor phase of
water. Clouds are liquid water. The liquid is hundreds of times as
dense as the vapor, by the way.

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:03:31 -0700, Keith Hughes
wrote:

Water vapor - what you can actually see -

Water vapor is a gas and is invisible.

You are correct, I should have said "mist". The point being that what
most people routinely think of as "steam" is not steam, but condensate.

Steam is the vapor phase of
water. Clouds are liquid water.

Yes, and clouds 'fly'. Hence the "water doesn't flow uphill" statement,
in this context doesn't...hold water.

The liquid is hundreds of times as
dense as the vapor, by the way.

Really?

Keith Hughes

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:48:17 +0000, Larry wrote:

And, it takes a lab test to see if it's safe
boaters don't have, placing WAY TOO MUCH FAITH in the integrity of that
membrane, I think.

There is a simple test for chlorides: just add a drop of silver
nitrate solution to a sample. Any hint of cloudiness would indicate a
leak. This is how the steamship boys tested their boiler water for
leaks in the condenser. Your conductivity test should also find a hole
in the membrane. I also think there are many who would
not bother to check: you may be right about 'too much faith'.
Lots of people simply trust the stuff to be good, when they fill up
with whatever comes out of the hose at the marina. It wouldn't be that
hard to add a conductivity meter to the RO equipment at the factory.
How often do the membranes fail, anyway?

Casady