On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:56:08 -0000, "
wrote:

On Sep 10, 1:02 pm, Larry wrote:
... My discussion
involves a whole different way of distillation in POWER boats with ENGINES
running....not hermits living on the hook. ...

I take it from the nasty ad hominem zinger that I'm being a pain.
Sorry about that. Just for the record, there are many very desirable
cruising destinations that have plenty of people but not much fresh
water. In those spots an efficient water maker is a wonderful tool
for sociable cruisers. Also for the record, I'm not trying to be a
pain. But, at the risk of seeming negative, since you completely
ignored my question I'll ask it one more time: what is the motivation
to use steam distillation even in "POWER boats with ENGINES running"
when the same amount of heat differential would give you vastly more
fresh water if you used it to run R/O filtration?

My understanding is that Larry simply prefers distilled water, and has
given reasons why. Mineral content, and possible bacterial
contamination of RO water.
Though I am not well versed in this, and have not tested the waters.
distilled and RO are different, aren't they?
He never said distilling was more energy efficient than RO, but was
looking to capture engine waste heat to make distilling more efficient
than it is using conventional methods.
And if it could be done, it would be of benefit to sailboats too,
since they are often under power, and their engines waste many,
BTUs. Capturing wasted BTUs is the most important issue.

--Vic

On 2007-09-07 14:36:05 -0400, Vic Smith said:

What's the cost of some common bottled water? Never drink it, but
maybe some brands are low in minerals.

Most bottled waters are lightly filtered "city" or well water. Perrier
used to (may still) bottle Chester County, PA well water. Took so much
out that my friends had to dig a deeper well.

You can probably get better water for FAR less by putting a simple
filter on your house supply. We have a filter and dedicated "drinking
water" tap at the kitchen sink.

Most minerals won't be filtered out, but some of the "gunk" Larry's
talking about will be. I also have kidney stone problems, but the
filter is sufficient for me as our water's fairly "soft" to begin with.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 2007-09-08 21:40:35 -0400, Larry said:

in powerboats like trawlers, motor yachts, bubbleboats. Anything
guzzling that kind of fuel is making a LOT of waste heat and simply
dumping it overboard.

You might be surprised. Friend had a 42' trawler that used about 1 gph
to go 8-10 knots. New boat is 55', but still only uses about 3 gph for
slightly higher speeds. There's not that much waste heat to use.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

...My understanding is that Larry simply prefers distilled water, ...

Oh, if that's all then I think it is a great idea. I thought his
argument was that distilling using engine heat was more efficient and
was responding to his post of Sept 8 where he said:

"And any RO uses more power which equals more fuel expense we can no
longer afford. It's a shame to let so much heat just blow out the
stacks
and be poured overboard as hot seawater when there are so many uses
for
it....like distillation, heat engines driving gensets, etc. "

This confused me because RO uses much LESS energy than steam
distillation. So, basically the question I've been asking all along
is: If the heat is available to do work then why not use it to make
RO water which will give you a lot more water for your work than
steam? I gather from you that the answer is "because I want steam
distilled water and I don't get any of that from RO." I'm good with
that. It was the "more power" thing that threw me.

... Though I am not well versed in this, and have not tested the waters.
distilled and RO are different, aren't they?

Yes, Larry is right, there may be qualitative differences between
typical RO water and steam distilled water. His preferences in this
seem defensible to me as long as we're talking about drinking water
and not washing or cooking water. RO desalinated water is probably
better than the water that comes out of your taps at home if you don't
filter it. It is good enough for drinking -- I'm a lot happier
drinking it than the water that gets used in most of the developing
world -- but for some things steam distilled could be better yet.
Steam distilled water is a luxury version of drinking water.

He never said distilling was more energy efficient than RO, but was
looking to capture engine waste heat to make distilling more efficient
than it is using conventional methods.

I thought he did say distilling was more energy efficient which is why
I was confused.

And if it could be done, it would be of benefit to sailboats too,
since they are often under power, and their engines waste many,
BTUs. ...

I think Larry said he didn't think it would be practical for sailboats
(he used all those big letters), but it would be neat if it was
workable and affordable. I'm hoping he will do the hard work for us
by rigging up a prototype on his diesel truck and then share the
results with us. It would be lovely if it worked!

Capturing wasted BTUs is the most important issue.

Now you've confused me -- bless my heart I am dumber than a box of
rocks. I was good with "I steam distill water because I want steam
distilled water", but if capturing the BTUs is the most important
issue then why use an inefficient desalination system like steam
distilling?

-- Tom.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:39:21 -0700, "
wrote:


Capturing wasted BTUs is the most important issue.

Now you've confused me -- bless my heart I am dumber than a box of
rocks. I was good with "I steam distill water because I want steam
distilled water", but if capturing the BTUs is the most important
issue then why use an inefficient desalination system like steam
distilling?

Well, it's pretty well established - I think - that Larry doesn't want
RO water. He wants distilled water. You have said, "Steam distilled
water is a luxury version of drinking water."
IMO, Larry is not one bit averse to luxury.
At the same time, and perhaps in other threads, Larry has talked
about engine waste heat recovery as a separate issue.
And it is.
How the waste heat is used is a different matter entirely, though
Larry happened to be talking about distilling when it came up, or
maybe he was thinking about waste heat and distilling all at once.
Hell if I know.
But theoretically you may use the waste heat to generate electricity
to run RO, the TV, an A/C unit, etc, or to heat hot water for the
shower, or to distill.
The only one I see happening is heating the hot water tank, which
is closer to a distilling system than to a system that generates
electricity.
Hey, too bad they don't make thermal blankets/material that could
enclose an engine compartment and generate electricity from the heat.
I'm not up in physics, and don't know how solar cells work, whether
they use UV or IR, but they work.
I offer my apologies to Larry for butting in and making assumptions,
but figured he could use some time with his parrots anyway.

--Vic

" wrote in
ups.com:

But, at the risk of seeming negative, since you completely
ignored my question I'll ask it one more time: what is the motivation
to use steam distillation even in "POWER boats with ENGINES running"
when the same amount of heat differential would give you vastly more
fresh water if you used it to run R/O filtration?


And, I'll answer it for you. Distillation requires little maintenance
and ALWAYS makes PURE water with the simplest carbon filtration. RO ONLY
makes "good water" when it's new and meticulously maintained, degrading
from that first moment you flip the switch until the bugs start leaking
through it making everyone sick.

Distillation requires me to decalcify the boiler once a year. I change
the carbon filter every few months of continuous use.

RO is FAR from perfect....especially a unit sold to some CONSUMER made of
the usual cheap crap. The cheapest consumer distiller makes the same
distilled water my commercial distillery makes....even if it's 10 years
old.

How'd I do? Are your glasses less rosey on RO?

Larry
--
RO - One pinhole and everyone dies.....

" wrote in
oups.com:

but if capturing the BTUs is the most important
issue then why use an inefficient desalination system like steam
distilling?


Because boiling seawater into steam from the waste heat off an engine is
about as simple a thing to do as you can get. To make an RO run off waste
heat, you have to convert it to PRESSURE, probably to electricity to run
the RO's pump and computer, right? I want to simply boil seawater into
steam in heat exchangers running off hot exhaust gasses and engine
coolant....making distilled water for NOTHING in fuel and very little in
maintenance.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091021343611272-
jerelull@maccom:

We have a filter and dedicated "drinking
water" tap at the kitchen sink.


What bothers me about "filters" is the same thing that bothers me about
RO. Whatever is filtered from the water backs up on whatever filter
media is used, whether it's a paper and carbon filter...or an expensive
RO membrane. In an undersink filter, with no backflush capability, there
it sets...for months...or YEARS....breaking down under the water pressure
and flow into SMALLER, less filterable, more toxic things. Once it has
broken down far enough, it passes THROUGH the filter into the drinking
supply...bacterial toxins that cause Legionaires' Disease is a good
example. Viruses are so small they aren't filtered in the first place!
The filters aren't molecular level. There are NO viruses in distilled
water....NOT EVEN DEAD ONES. Distilled water is safe even if the CIA
pours Anthrax into the water to reduce Social Security costs or for false
flag operations to keep us under control, a real possibility lately.

Am I better off filtering or drinking the water straight? Noone I can
find in the filter business wants to talk about what happens on the
pressure side of the filter element "as-time-goes-by". I can't even get
a straight answer from the SC Dept of Health and Environmental Control on
this subject. This may be because every coffee pot in every restaurant
has this little metal filter in its water supply line that is NEVER
changed unless the whole machine changes. I'm sure glad it's boiled
before I drink it! The iced tea is NOT! Most of it is just water poured
in as the tea brews...filtered, of course.

Larry
--

Larry wrote:
Jere Lull wrote in news:2007091021343611272-
jerelull@maccom:

We have a filter and dedicated "drinking
water" tap at the kitchen sink.


What bothers me about "filters" is the same thing that bothers me about
RO. Whatever is filtered from the water backs up on whatever filter
media is used, whether it's a paper and carbon filter...or an expensive
RO membrane. In an undersink filter, with no backflush capability, there
it sets...for months...or YEARS....breaking down under the water pressure
and flow into SMALLER, less filterable, more toxic things. Once it has
broken down far enough, it passes THROUGH the filter into the drinking
supply...bacterial toxins that cause Legionaires' Disease is a good
example.

Uhmmm, no that's not an example at all, let alone a good one.
Legionnair's disease is not caused by broken down anything, or by
bacterial *toxins*, it's caused by an infection with the bacterium
Legionella pneumophila.

Viruses are so small they aren't filtered in the first place!
The filters aren't molecular level. There are NO viruses in distilled
water....NOT EVEN DEAD ONES. Distilled water is safe even if the CIA
pours Anthrax into the water to reduce Social Security costs or for false
flag operations to keep us under control, a real possibility lately.

Depends on whether your still is really effective or not. If you're
only condensing *steam*, i.e. not water vapor but gaseous steam, you may
be correct. However, unless your still is a multi-effect (doubtful) or
uses some form of cyclonic separation (doubtful), and uses some form of
demisting (also doubtful), you don't have quite the assurance you think
you do. Almost certainly any organisms will be inactivated, but you may
still have endotoxin carryover.

Am I better off filtering or drinking the water straight? Noone I can
find in the filter business wants to talk about what happens on the
pressure side of the filter element "as-time-goes-by".

Then you're not talking to knowledgeable people. Just Google Minncare
and you'll find what most everyone uses for biofilm control. As time
goes by, a biofilm will build up without proper maintenance.

I can't even get
a straight answer from the SC Dept of Health and Environmental Control on
this subject. This may be because every coffee pot in every restaurant
has this little metal filter in its water supply line that is NEVER
changed unless the whole machine changes. I'm sure glad it's boiled
before I drink it! The iced tea is NOT! Most of it is just water poured
in as the tea brews...filtered, of course.

Well Larry, rail as you will about RO, but you can make Water for
Injection with double pass RO. That's injection, in your veins, and you
worry about drinking it? Granted, there's a further *sterilization*
step, but that has nothing to do with all the "toxins" you seem obsessed
with.

Keith Hughes

On Sep 10, 6:23 pm, Larry wrote:
" wrote groups.com:

but if capturing the BTUs is the most important
issue then why use an inefficient desalination system like steam
distilling?

Because boiling seawater into steam from the waste heat off an engine is
about as simple a thing to do as you can get. To make an RO run off waste
heat, you have to convert it to PRESSURE, probably to electricity to run
the RO's pump and computer, right? I want to simply boil seawater into
steam in heat exchangers running off hot exhaust gasses and engine
coolant....making distilled water for NOTHING in fuel and very little in
maintenance. ...


Simple is good. I wish you well with it.

Just so you know, RO doesn't need electricity any more than steam
does. You just need to push water through a membrane. My Spectra
system has only one electrical component and that's an off the shelf
pressure water pump. It has no electronics.

-- Tom.