On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:41:39 +0000, Larry wrote:

Vic Smith wrote in
:

That's probably cheaper than store-bought. Do your parrots talk?
What do they actually *say* about that water?
BTW, I passed through Gila Bend, Arizona once. The cold water there
is about 120 F, and thick with minerals. I was in a grocery eyeing
the bottled water, but hate buying water. I asked the cashier if the
city water was safe, and she said "I've been drinking it 50 years, and
I'm doing just fine."
I said, "You misunderstand. I need it for my van's radiator."
As ugly as she was, I went ahead and bought a couple gallons.

snip heat exhanger/distiller stuff.

You should try something on that, but I'm pretty sure space and
complexity issues will keep it from happening.
What about cleaning up the RO issues you've pointed out.
Got anything for that?



Parrots both talk, INCESSANTLY. I wish they'd never learned....OR HEARD
AN ELECTRONIC TONE! Once learned, any sound is repeated, AD NAUSEUM!
It's only funny the first 3 days. Then it drives me CRAZY!

Luckily, there is an on-off switch! Simply cover the cages and they
sleep, giving you a break in blessed SILENCE! Too quiet at home? Get a
parrot!

Space is not a problem for an engine distiller. We simply replace the
water-cooling exhaust system with a primary boiler to suck the heat out
of the exhaust gasses, cooling the exhaust like we're doing now, by
making STEAM, not heating seawater. The same indirect engine cooling
system in use today, is replaced by a transmission oil primary loop
running at 300F, hot enough to heat a boiler to steam, and replace the
seawater cooling system with a seawater feedwater-to-steam plant,
complete with a backflush to wash out the salt when you shut it down.
The seawater steam condensor is simply a stainless steel version of the
freon condensor in any seawater cooled marine air condition you already
have on the boat. Seawater condenses the steam into pure water in a
stainless, not copper, pipe for collection and use. The heat transferred
to the seawater is dumped overboard or can be used to heat fresh water in
the water tank. Because steam gives up its heat in condensation, there's
LOTS of heat coming out of it.....nearly, we hope, 100% of the heat you
put in if there's no leakage...which is impossible. There's plenty of
hot seawater to heat the hot water tank on the way overboard.

A genset exhaust is also an excellent source for a seawater distiller
heat source....

Larry

Larry,

Explain that again in one syllable words for me :-)

As I understand what you are saying you mean to remove the present
water cooled exhaust manifold from the cooling system and replace it
with a heat exchanger device to heat what? Water to make steam or oil
to heat water to make steam? Or did I miss something there?

The reason I ask is because many years ago I maintained a distillation
plant that used exhaust heat to make steam. If I remember correctly
the primary power was a Perkins 4-108 diesel and it didn't make enough
exhaust heat to boil water at sea level atmospheric pressure. The
distillation vessel was heated as hot as possible using the exhaust
and then an engine driven vacuum pump dropped the pressure in the
still to create steam at temperatures lower then 212F.

Whether this was done to increase thruput or because exhaust heat
alone was not sufficient I do not recollect.

In any event, given the cost of reverse osmosis systems using engine
heat would seem rather attractive.







Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 16:20:16 +0700, wrote:


Explain that again in one syllable words for me :-)

As I understand what you are saying you mean to remove the present
water cooled exhaust manifold from the cooling system and replace it
with a heat exchanger device to heat what? Water to make steam or oil
to heat water to make steam? Or did I miss something there?

What Larry's talking about is using a liquid medium near the exhaust
that will transport the heat to the distiller, similar to what nuke
plants do, but I think they still use water for the transfer.
He mentioned trans fluid, and I'm not sure of its specific heat, but
there are "better" or more appropriate heat transfer mechanisms than
water, as seen in freon A/C.
In any case, though I'm far from an expert in this, I did operate
steam plants in the Navy and acquired but never used a Stationary
license, so I speaking with *some* experience.
As I said before, complexity and size are the impediments to what
Larry is after. Science finds nothing magical in capturing and moving
heat.
But every time I've seen it done it involved sound materials selection
and engineering, bulky heat transfer vessels, and huge amounts of
insulation.

The reason I ask is because many years ago I maintained a distillation
plant that used exhaust heat to make steam. If I remember correctly
the primary power was a Perkins 4-108 diesel and it didn't make enough
exhaust heat to boil water at sea level atmospheric pressure. The
distillation vessel was heated as hot as possible using the exhaust
and then an engine driven vacuum pump dropped the pressure in the
still to create steam at temperatures lower then 212F.

Whether this was done to increase thruput or because exhaust heat
alone was not sufficient I do not recollect.

Probably both. Since the purpose was to make water, they used a
combination that made the most water. Engine exhaust is certainly
hot enough to boil water. If the same engine was driving the vacuum
pump, that's good, because a diesel's designed purpose is to create
mechanical power. No doubt you know all this, so I hope my talking
hasn't put you to sleep.

In any event, given the cost of reverse osmosis systems using engine
heat would seem rather attractive.

It would be good to see development and competition bring the initial
cost of RO units down. I'm still interested in Larry's thoughts about
the "bacteria" issues he has seen in RO units. His thoughts on the
cruise boat ailments being related to the watermakers are very
interesting.
In the meantime, his stovetop distillers are working well for him, and
use heat in a time-tested and pretty efficient way, with almost direct
application of flame to water.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote in
:

I'm still interested in Larry's thoughts about
the "bacteria" issues he has seen in RO units. His thoughts on the
cruise boat ailments being related to the watermakers are very
interesting.

Here's some interesting membrane information from one of the RO makers.
http://www.hydrovane-watermakers.com/products.html

Notice how much time they spend talking about "pickling" and "flushing"
and warning not to flush the membrane with chlorinated water, which
destroys it. They also make some vague references to bacterial
contamination but don't delve into scary subjects that trash sales, of
course.

I gave up looking for the old article I was looking for to show you after
the third time IE's latest version was hijacked by some self-installing
spyware bull**** the net is eaten alive with. I hate looking at webpages
any more. Someone should HANG FROM THE YARDARM. Sorry....(c;

Universities are worth searching like:
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/chem-eng/Biotech-
Environ/MISC/biotreat/reverseo.html

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1047w.htm

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/factsheets/mk_nl2.asc

These RO guys look interesting:
http://store.bigbrandwater.com/poorsaplcr.html
they should know the answers....



In the meantime, his stovetop distillers are working well for him, and
use heat in a time-tested and pretty efficient way, with almost direct
application of flame to water.

--Vic


I don't own a stovetop distiller. Mine are all electric, 1 commercial
and 2 countertop home units. The last one is a countertop Sears sells
from Waterwise in Florida. I paid $9 for it at a thrift shop, hardly
ever used it looks like.

http://www.waterwise.com/products/products.asp
One of my units is the 8800, but the Sears-branded model. The newest one
looks like the 8800, but is a Sear-only unit that's much cheaper without
the computer/clock controls. It resets by simply resetting the kettle
trip overtemp thermostat with a push button under the handle. Sears
sells them for about $100. Makes not quite a gallon. The 8800 makes
over a gallon in 4 hours. Both units work excellently with no steam
leakage and great convenience.

I buy Deer Park brand 3 litre polycarbonate bottled water from the
grocery store. I'm not interested in the city water they bottle, just
the bottle itself. These make excellent storage bottles for my output.
They have two dimples molded into the strong plastic for non-protruding
handles and a LARGE CAP to make it easier to fill. I just dump the
product down the drain when I finally wear out one of my 6 bottles in
storage. I used to distill into 5 gallon commercial water bottles. I
have 3 real glass ones I can sanitize in the oven, not polycarb plastic.
I also have an Oasis bottled water cooler to put them in, making really
great, REALLY COLD water always available. I paid $25 for the big
cooler, another thrift shop bargain....(c; It plugs in, of course.

Larry
--
Why drink the government's chemical soup when you can drink pure?

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:48:39 +0000, Larry wrote:

Vic Smith wrote in
:

I'm still interested in Larry's thoughts about
the "bacteria" issues he has seen in RO units. His thoughts on the
cruise boat ailments being related to the watermakers are very
interesting.

I gave up looking for the old article I was looking for to show you after
the third time IE's latest version was hijacked by some self-installing
spyware bull**** the net is eaten alive with. I hate looking at webpages
any more. Someone should HANG FROM THE YARDARM. Sorry....(c;

The free AVG and Zone Alarm have virtually stopped that for me.
I use my C: partition for the OS and program files only, Ghosting it
often.
If I suspect an infection I just restore the image.
Before, when I was manually removing infections, I got a very strong
suspicion that many of the virii are being propagated not by simple
vandals, but by those with financial connections to the various
ant-virus money-making corporations and businesses.
Hanging from the yardarm isn't good enough.
Thanks for the links. I'll look into them.

In the meantime, his stovetop distillers are working well for him, and
use heat in a time-tested and pretty efficient way, with almost direct
application of flame to water.

I don't own a stovetop distiller. Mine are all electric, 1 commercial
and 2 countertop home units. The last one is a countertop Sears sells
from Waterwise in Florida. I paid $9 for it at a thrift shop, hardly
ever used it looks like.

Yeah, I knew that, but forgot. Probably thinking about how I would do
it given natural gas is cheaper than electricity here. But even with
that, your electric units might be more practical here too.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote in
:

Yeah, I knew that, but forgot. Probably thinking about how I would do
it given natural gas is cheaper than electricity here. But even with
that, your electric units might be more practical here too.

--Vic



Electricity is political where I live. In Charleston, a corporation,
SCANA aka South Carolina Electric and Gas, supposedly controlled by the
state charges over 9c/KWh at the house, over 10c/KWh if you use over 750
KWh. 75 miles up the road, the City of Orangeburg, SC, same state,
couldn't get big corporations to wire the city way back when, so decided
to do it themselves like the water system.

http://www.orbgdpu.com/electric.htm
Click on RATES after seeing what they offer their customers.
They sell the SAME electricity, bought from the electrical grid as they
have no power plants except some HUGE gas turbine emergency plants, for
2.4c/KWh for the first 500 KWh...then the rate DROPS (ours rises,
dammit)...over that first 500 KWh, Orangeburg houses pay 1.9c/KWh....not
10.2c/KWh Charleston pays. No bogus "fuel cost adjustment charges",
either.

Here's our corporate thieves:
http://www.sceg.com/en/
buried down a few layers is:
http://www.sceg.com/NR/rdonlyres/523...0C0-4997-8608-
4AA8EA48A9BD/0/rate8.pdf
the electric rates.....dammit.

SCANA controls the state, not the other way around. I discovered this
after my father died and I inherited his mobile home in a trailer park in
Orangeburg. The city owned utility kept sending me bills for $35/month
so I ran up to see what was wrong with the air conditioning system I was
SURE I left running to prevent mildew inside. It was still running. $35
was "normal" for July in SC! The base charge was $6....no funny charges
noone can explain, no city franchies fees or other bogus charges to raise
the cost 35%....$6!

And they say the government shouldn't be in the electric business....

Larry
--
Everyone paying under 2c/KWh for electricity raise your hand!

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:10:37 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

In the meantime, his stovetop distillers are working well for him, and
use heat in a time-tested and pretty efficient way, with almost direct
application of flame to water.

Yes, but can you also use it to make booze? If so you could turn your
boat into a cash machine.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:57:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:10:37 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

In the meantime, his stovetop distillers are working well for him, and
use heat in a time-tested and pretty efficient way, with almost direct
application of flame to water.

Yes, but can you also use it to make booze? If so you could turn your
boat into a cash machine.

You'd have to fiddle with the thermostat as booze is distilled at
considerable lower temperatures then distilled water. I've got a mate
who makes his own booze and I *think* the top of the reflux still runs
about 80 degrees C. I can get you specific numbers if you are that
interested.

Be aware that the Tax people get absolutely frantic and tend to take
away your house, car, still, and money when they catch you doing this.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote in news:m4p4e354ggmshgch6l42g4gutlpd5g19u0@
4ax.com:

Explain that again in one syllable words for me :-)

As I understand what you are saying you mean to remove the present
water cooled exhaust manifold from the cooling system and replace it
with a heat exchanger device to heat what? Water to make steam or oil
to heat water to make steam? Or did I miss something there?

To BOIL, not heat, seawater into steam...while still flushing the
manifold with a tiny bit of seawater to carry the salt, biologicals and
pollutants overboard at 212F. I want to turn the exhaust manifold into
an evaporator, just like the big ships USED to have before RO. The water
in the exhaust heat exchanger would have a controlled flow of seawater
into it to A) maintain boiling temperature while B) flushing out the
remnants overboard, self flushing evaporator, which isn't new.

In addition, I want to replace the antifreeze in the water jacket with
transmission fluid, or any free fluid that has a higher boiling point
than water like transmission fluid, that must A) not boil, itself, other
than at the head like the antifreeze does, now...and B) transfer higher
than 300F heat to a secondary heat exchanger, another boiler heated by
the coolant, not exhaust gasses, to boil even more seawater in a
secondary self-flushing boiler. Both these steam outputs would go to
one, or if necessary two, stainless steel condensors that look exactly
like the pipe-in-a-pipe freon condensors on a marine air conditioner,
which is very compact. This condensor would have a seawater jacket
around the central stainless steel steam pipe it cools, dumping the heat
of condensation into the hot water tank heat exchanger before dumping
excess heat overboard. The condensor only need be pulled apart far
enough so that gravity will drain the distilled water out of it at your
worst angle of heel so it doesn't vapor lock...and be mounted above the
engine far enough so only steam can reach it from the gas outlet of the
various boilers below.

A power boat wasting millions of Btu/day would sink from fresh water
flooding if this thing were left tanking it all. Being as the distilled
water output from this contraption were HOT water, not cold as with RO,
you might even be able to just tank it for that hot shower, directly.
The water coming out of my steam condensor will burn you at 200F. To get
a cold drink, you'd have to cool the engine distiller's water before
drinking it....maybe with further seawater cooling, which is plentiful.

There's so much great heat just going up the stacks and running out of
the boat from the seawater indirect cooling systems on these monsters
it's pitiful! Heat is POWER! All it needs is useful conversion. I've
never figured out why a big power boat doesn't have a Stirling genset
running off its waste exhaust heat, alone! God, it's certainly hot
enough with enough Btus.


The reason I ask is because many years ago I maintained a distillation
plant that used exhaust heat to make steam. If I remember correctly
the primary power was a Perkins 4-108 diesel and it didn't make enough
exhaust heat to boil water at sea level atmospheric pressure. The
distillation vessel was heated as hot as possible using the exhaust
and then an engine driven vacuum pump dropped the pressure in the
still to create steam at temperatures lower then 212F.

It's not? That's most interesting. Maybe we should put the fluid
coolant heat exchanger AFTER the exhaust heat exchanger and use the
exhaust heat as a pre-heater if that's so. Anyone who forgot to open
cooling water thruhull valve KNOWS how much heat and steam the water
jacket can make! Hell, we're only using 30-35% of the energy in the fuel
we're paying $3.50/gallon for, now. The rest of it goes overboard as
waste heat.

Pulling a vacuum on the boilers is also an excellent idea that's been
used since the 1800s, or maybe even before to reduce the boiling point.
I was trying to keep this as simple as possible and free running into
current water tankage.

I wonder why that system allowed all that water jacket heat that's so
hard to get rid of to boil even more seawater?


Whether this was done to increase thruput or because exhaust heat
alone was not sufficient I do not recollect.

In any event, given the cost of reverse osmosis systems using engine
heat would seem rather attractive.

And any RO uses more power which equals more fuel expense we can no
longer afford. It's a shame to let so much heat just blow out the stacks
and be poured overboard as hot seawater when there are so many uses for
it....like distillation, heat engines driving gensets, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I love things like this. When I was using my little 1KW Honda EU1000i
genset to power the service van, I noted that its tiny exhaust was
exiting separately from its air cooling exhaust. So, I welded a pipe
nipple to the engine exhaust so I could pipe it where I wanted it. The
exhaust gas and cooling air exhaust come out on the same end through some
plastic louvers.

The truck is cold in winter with only a small engine heater for the
driver. The back was always cold to work in. So, I moved the tiny
genset from its mount outside the rear door to inside the back of the
"cabin" and used some flexible natural gas pipe, stainless steel with
external ribs that would act as a radiator, made into a big loop behind a
cabinet where there was a void open to the cabin air. The exhaust heated
the tubing, the tubing heated the air, what came out was really HOT air
wafting up from behind the cabinet. The cooled exhaust gasses went
through a hole in the deck to be vented to atmosphere below the truck's
floor. Exhaust gas is heavier than air, so it vents away from the cabin
and this also drains the water vapor that condenses in my heat
exchanger...it runs a full stream, suitable to fill my PortaPottie! The
exhaust gas is about 75F coming out...a good exchange of heat. Because
the genset is INSIDE the cabin, all of the waste heat coming out of its
air cooled engine is POURING out onto the deck of the cabin. I'm
recovering around 98% of all waste heat. When it's 30F outside the
poorly-insulated truck box, I can make it 80F inside in an hour!.....and
have up to 1KW of electrical power, 120VAC 60 Hz to power the shop. The
noise was awful...so I built a foam cabinet out of 4" thick foam packing
crate foam I got for free. The cabin air intake to cool the engine goes
through a little foam muffler on the intake end. The exhaust gas heat
exchanger and cooling air outlet goes through yet another foam muffler I
built onto the other end...making it amazingly more quiet.
Voila!...Gasoline heater and genset! You wouldn't want to live with
it...but it sure is nice trying to work on a cold day in January where
it's WARM as Toast!...(c; After all, old cars had exhaust gas heat
exchangers heating the cars back in the early part of the 20th
Century....not hot water heaters which came later. 1 gallon of gas
provides electrical power and cabin heat for all day....(c;

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Larry, somehow the saying "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
kept popping into my head as I read your post. It is my
understanding that phase change methods of water purification take
about an order of magnitude more energy than filtration systems to
convert sea water to drinkable water. So, it seems to me that if you
are going to harness the "excess" heat or the excess velocity of the
exhaust gases to convert sea water to potable water you would be much
better off using R/0 in pure heat terms. Doubtlessly I am missing
something obvious but perhaps I am not alone in this as most cruise
ships and municipalities that do seawater conversion use R/O even
though they tend to have lots of heat available from their diesel
generation systems. Sorry to be dense about this. What am I missing?

-- Tom.

" wrote in
oups.com:

What am I missing?


I doubt a cruise ship could produce enough distilled water from waste heat
to feed its hungry passengers. But, in a situation of a private boat with
2 to 5 passengers aboard, I'm convinced they'll produce far more distilled
water than needed from the waste heat of the engines, in powerboats like
trawlers, motor yachts, bubbleboats. Anything guzzling that kind of fuel
is making a LOT of waste heat and simply dumping it overboard.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......