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Mast wiring connectors.
Westerly 1970s all fiberglass 26 footer. Previous owner replaced mast
and rigging but in the process installed deck mounted connectors (good quality marine type) for the mast wiring that allowed water to get into a substantial wooden block buried in the deck under the mast step. That block is further supported by a stainless steel column that goes down to the keel. During winter storage the water soaked wood burst the f.glass deck around the mast step. It's now all replaced. Now wondering best way to connect the revamped mast wiring (Approx. seven wires plus an RG58 coax. for the top of the mast VHF whip).** Certainly resolved to have any wiring holes and/or mounting screws well away from the wooden block. Also maybe prefer not to have any connectors at all? That would mean poking the bunch of wires from the mast through something (a caulked hole or gland or ???) in the deck to be, say, connected individually once per season to a terminal strip in the toilet ('Head') compartment below. Pondering various alternatives. Any advice please would be most appreciated. BTW ** We now have all the nav. lights on the mast rather than lower down on the hull and cabin sides of the boat. The original (previously replaced!) stern light for example was for ever getting stepped on and damaged. The individual cabin side port/starboard lights had long ago been replaced by a red/green bow pulpit one that also suffered damage and or got tangled with jib sheets etc. Any comments/advice on this also appreciated. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:59:51 -0700, terry
wrote: Westerly 1970s all fiberglass 26 footer. Previous owner replaced mast and rigging but in the process installed deck mounted connectors (good quality marine type) for the mast wiring that allowed water to get into a substantial wooden block buried in the deck under the mast step. That block is further supported by a stainless steel column that goes down to the keel. During winter storage the water soaked wood burst the f.glass deck around the mast step. It's now all replaced. Now wondering best way to connect the revamped mast wiring (Approx. seven wires plus an RG58 coax. for the top of the mast VHF whip).** Certainly resolved to have any wiring holes and/or mounting screws well away from the wooden block. Also maybe prefer not to have any connectors at all? That would mean poking the bunch of wires from the mast through something (a caulked hole or gland or ???) in the deck to be, say, connected individually once per season to a terminal strip in the toilet ('Head') compartment below. Pondering various alternatives. Any advice please would be most appreciated. BTW ** We now have all the nav. lights on the mast rather than lower down on the hull and cabin sides of the boat. The original (previously replaced!) stern light for example was for ever getting stepped on and damaged. The individual cabin side port/starboard lights had long ago been replaced by a red/green bow pulpit one that also suffered damage and or got tangled with jib sheets etc. Any comments/advice on this also appreciated. If I were you I'd pull all the wiring is it looked at all "old" and replace it. The RG58 I would replace with low loss cable - ping larry for details there. Use a tricolor with an integral anchor light on the mast head and a motoring light at the spreaders. That should be sufficient. So, 1 ground, 1 RF coaxial, 4 positive = 6 wires. If you install spreader lights, which are nice at night, then it is 1 more wire. Remember that the ground has to carry the return for 4 separate lights. Id bring all the wires out the side of the mast just above the foot and build or buy an inverted "J" shaped electrical entrance fitting large enough to take all the wires plus the coax fitting. I looked around but couldn;t find a picture of the entrance fitting but it would be about a 1-1/4 - 1-1/2 inch stainless "U" fitting with a short section welded to one leg so it looks like a "J". The longer leg is welded to a flange and you just bore a hole in the deck, waterproof the deck core with a bit of epoxy resin and install the fitting with screws through the flange, using proper marine caulking. Then when the mast is up you poke the wires through the elbow and down to a junction box somewhere inside the boat. Do use proper boat wire, or equipment wire it may be called. Tin coated copper stranded wire, anyway Costs a bit more and lasts a lot longer. .. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Mast wiring connectors.
Use a tricolor with an integral anchor light on the mast head and a motoring light at the spreaders. That should be sufficient. Nope. The tricolor is only good while sailing. When motoring, you must use traditional side lights. bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
Mast wiring connectors.
Terry,
This is a very common problem and common sense provides the solution. First do not use a connector. Instead use an old fashion bakelite terminal strip. Second, all mast wires exit the mast above the deck and make a "U" turn up into a "J" pipe in stainless and then back down below deck to the terminal block. In this way, all condensation and rain water that drips down the mast wires drips off the wires above deck. At the entrance to the "J" pipe install a soft rubber gland with a hose clamp on the wires and on the stainless pipe. Problem solved. When removing mast, just disconnect the wires from the terminal block below deck, loosen the rubber gland hose clamp at the "J" pipe and remove the wires as a laced bundle with the rubber gland. Steve "terry" wrote in message ups.com... Westerly 1970s all fiberglass 26 footer. Previous owner replaced mast and rigging but in the process installed deck mounted connectors (good quality marine type) for the mast wiring that allowed water to get into a substantial wooden block buried in the deck under the mast step. That block is further supported by a stainless steel column that goes down to the keel. During winter storage the water soaked wood burst the f.glass deck around the mast step. It's now all replaced. Now wondering best way to connect the revamped mast wiring (Approx. seven wires plus an RG58 coax. for the top of the mast VHF whip).** Certainly resolved to have any wiring holes and/or mounting screws well away from the wooden block. Also maybe prefer not to have any connectors at all? That would mean poking the bunch of wires from the mast through something (a caulked hole or gland or ???) in the deck to be, say, connected individually once per season to a terminal strip in the toilet ('Head') compartment below. Pondering various alternatives. Any advice please would be most appreciated. BTW ** We now have all the nav. lights on the mast rather than lower down on the hull and cabin sides of the boat. The original (previously replaced!) stern light for example was for ever getting stepped on and damaged. The individual cabin side port/starboard lights had long ago been replaced by a red/green bow pulpit one that also suffered damage and or got tangled with jib sheets etc. Any comments/advice on this also appreciated. |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message ... wrote: Use a tricolor with an integral anchor light on the mast head and a motoring light at the spreaders. That should be sufficient. Bruce in Bangkok I don't know what the rules are in Bangkok, but in the States and most European countries the mast light (aka "steaming light") must be mounted _above_ the other lights (red/green/stern) when under power (or for that matter when the engine is running even when not in gear).. This means obviously that using a masthead tricolor with a steaming light mounted somewhere lower on the mast is in violation. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare This is not correct. http://www.answers.com/topic/navigation-lights |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:54:07 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: This means obviously that using a masthead tricolor with a steaming light mounted somewhere lower on the mast is in violation. Yes. You need to have another set of nav lights down near deck level for motoring. I don't believe that any reasonable person would regard running the engine out of gear for battery charging purposes as motoring. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:54:07 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: wrote: Use a tricolor with an integral anchor light on the mast head and a motoring light at the spreaders. That should be sufficient. Bruce in Bangkok I don't know what the rules are in Bangkok, but in the States and most European countries the mast light (aka "steaming light") must be mounted _above_ the other lights (red/green/stern) when under power (or for that matter when the engine is running even when not in gear).. This means obviously that using a masthead tricolor with a steaming light mounted somewhere lower on the mast is in violation. You are right. The tri-color masthead light with a clear anchor light built into the fixture above the tri-color is a pretty common fixture. I was incorrect in saying or implying that the steaming light was to be mounted below the tri-color. It must be above the side lights. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:45:18 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: "Armond Perretta" wrote in message ... wrote: Use a tricolor with an integral anchor light on the mast head and a motoring light at the spreaders. That should be sufficient. Bruce in Bangkok I don't know what the rules are in Bangkok, but in the States and most European countries the mast light (aka "steaming light") must be mounted _above_ the other lights (red/green/stern) when under power (or for that matter when the engine is running even when not in gear).. This means obviously that using a masthead tricolor with a steaming light mounted somewhere lower on the mast is in violation. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare This is not correct. http://www.answers.com/topic/navigation-lights Your link agrees with what Armond said. The picture "Under Sail" shows the masthead tri-color. The picture "Under Power" shows the red-green bow and the white stern with the higher white steaming light. Steve |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Steve" wrote in message ... Your link agrees with what Armond said. The picture "Under Sail" shows the masthead tri-color. The picture "Under Power" shows the red-green bow and the white stern with the higher white steaming light. Steve I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that sailing vessels under 39' can combine the stern and steaming lights into the masthead tri-color. But I may be mistaken. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 24, 4:57 am, "KLC Lewis" wrote:
.... I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that sailing vessels under 39' can combine the stern and steaming lights into the masthead tri-color. But I may be mistaken. 23 (c) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may, in lieu of lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights. Which I take to mean that you could use your mast head _anchor_ light and sidelights under power. -- Tom. |
Mast wiring connectors.
wrote in message
ups.com... On Aug 24, 4:57 am, "KLC Lewis" wrote: ... I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that sailing vessels under 39' can combine the stern and steaming lights into the masthead tri-color. But I may be mistaken. 23 (c) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may, in lieu of lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights. Which I take to mean that you could use your mast head _anchor_ light and sidelights under power. -- Tom. The mast head and anchor lights are two different things. Mast head light typically refers to steaming light. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...a_masthead.htm The anchor light is a single white light visible in all directions, indicating that the vessel is at anchor. But, yes, you could according to 23(c). -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... On Aug 24, 4:57 am, "KLC Lewis" wrote: ... I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that sailing vessels under 39' can combine the stern and steaming lights into the masthead tri-color. But I may be mistaken. 23 (c) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may, in lieu of lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights. Which I take to mean that you could use your mast head _anchor_ light and sidelights under power. -- Tom. The mast head and anchor lights are two different things. Mast head light typically refers to steaming light. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...a_masthead.htm The anchor light is a single white light visible in all directions, indicating that the vessel is at anchor. But, yes, you could according to 23(c). -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Since vessels under 12 meters are allowed the masthead lights (red over green) in lieu of traditional sidelights, wouldn't the masthead tricolor (red over green over combined white) also comply with that provision? |
Mast wiring connectors.
Subject
A Tri-Color is strictly used for sailing. An anchor light is a totally different animal. When a sailing vessel is under power, the Tri-Color is extinguished and a steaming configuratiom is turned on which consists of red-green-white lights at deck level with the addition of a white steaming light above deck level, mounted on the mast so that it does not provide 360 degree illumination. Lew |
Mast wiring connectors.
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... On Aug 24, 4:57 am, "KLC Lewis" wrote: ... I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that sailing vessels under 39' can combine the stern and steaming lights into the masthead tri-color. But I may be mistaken. 23 (c) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may, in lieu of lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and sidelights. Which I take to mean that you could use your mast head _anchor_ light and sidelights under power. -- Tom. The mast head and anchor lights are two different things. Mast head light typically refers to steaming light. http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...a_masthead.htm The anchor light is a single white light visible in all directions, indicating that the vessel is at anchor. But, yes, you could according to 23(c). -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Since vessels under 12 meters are allowed the masthead lights (red over green) in lieu of traditional sidelights, wouldn't the masthead tricolor (red over green over combined white) also comply with that provision? |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 24, 9:01 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message .... The mast head and anchor lights are two different things. Mast head light typically refers to steaming light. .... I know. I was trying to make sure there was no confusion because the OP said masthead tri-color and side lights but probably meant masthead all around light which doubtless says "anchor light" on the electrical panel. Sadly, I seem to have just added more confusion. Sorry about that. Anyway, I think 23 (c) is clear enough and I quoted it in full. -- Tom. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 24, 10:55 am, " wrote:
... masthead all around light... Right, before I get hammered by the lawyers. Strike the masthead from that. I meant to say "all-round white light" that is at the top of the mast and often labeled "anchor" on electrical panels. I also know that the tri-color light is at or near the mast head rather than "masthead"... It does seem to me that the description of the light in question in 23 (c) is pretty nearly identical to that in 30 (b) and that it shouldn't cause vast amounts of confusion to use them interchangeably but I am sorry if I have offended folks by doing so. -- Tom. |
Mast wiring connectors.
Wayne.B wrote:
... ...I don't believe that any reasonable person would regard running the engine out of gear for battery charging purposes as motoring. Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court. In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor boat rules. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 24, 6:10 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Subject A Tri-Color is strictly used for sailing. An anchor light is a totally different animal. When a sailing vessel is under power, the Tri-Color is extinguished and a steaming configuratiom is turned on which consists of red-green-white lights at deck level with the addition of a white steaming light above deck level, mounted on the mast so that it does not provide 360 degree illumination. Lew Wow so many helpful ideas thank you. I was trying not to get into a discussion about the mast lights themselves. However this was/is our plan. Which I understand complies with Canadian/North American standards for small craft under 8 metres i.e. 26.2 feet. Sailing mode: A trilight at top of mast visible (ignoring angle of heel) comletely clear of sails can be seen in the appropriate directions. Also intend to install a two filament bulb in the trilight (it will get the most use if sailing at night) with filamants in parallel, so that if one burns out the other will still be lit. And not having to go up the mast. Motoring. Trilight off. Operate a white anchor light physically above the trilght and a red-green port-starboard lantern mounted at the crosstrees about 6 to 7 feet below. White above red/green. sails will be down. Anchoring: If required, the single white light at top of mast. Intermittent/occasional deck lighting from downward facing lights on the crosstrees. Other cabin and miscellaneous lighting etc. Including a recharge outlet for a hand lantern etc. Other circuits. Including depth sounder, GPS, VHF, CB radio, outlet for 12 volts to a cell phone etc. New RG58 proposed for mast head VHF whip. The old stuff is 20+ years old . Am every famiilar with wiring (amps, volts and all that stuff), but thanks for the reminder about using tinned wiring). I think it's also used for trailer towing connections! Oh; and new RG8 etc to 27 megs. CB whip on the stern rail. The major concern has been the water into the deck problem ans subsequent damage. Using a J entry seems like the general recommnedation and avoid connectors at bottom of the mast. Makes sense to me. Many thanks indeed for the comments. Oh, by the way. Strobes are not legal AFIK for normal marine use, but could be useful in an emergency????? Either on board our boat, 'Hypothermic survivor on board boat with strobe' or as in 'The distress is 0.5 miles due west of my strobe'. Any ideas cos I've got one and it looks fairly water proof if I replace any screws with stainless ones and it only needs one additional wire up the mast? |
Mast wiring connectors.
terry wrote:
Sailing mode: A trilight at top of mast visible (ignoring angle of heel) comletely clear of sails can be seen in the appropriate directions ... I favor a tricolor, especially offshore, but at times a lower set of lights for sailing can be helpful. Before the tricolor became popular, many people did not take the time to "look up" and often missed sailboats nearby at night, especially on bays and inshore waters. When I first fitted a tricolor, I also rigged a DPDT switch for the sailing lights so that "up" turned on the tricolor and "down" turned on the lower lights (r/g at the bow and a white stern light). That way you could not make the error of using both sets simultaneously. Motoring. Trilight off. Operate a white anchor light physically above the trilght and a red-green port-starboard lantern mounted at the crosstrees about 6 to 7 feet below. White above red/green. sails will be down. I cannot be sure off the top of my head but there may be a requirement for at least some fore-and-aft separation between the r/g and the "all-around" white. It may be useful to check this in the regs. Certainly there is a limitation on boat size with this setup. Anchoring: If required, the single white light at top of mast. The same comment above about tricolors may apply in your case to anchor lights. Just about everyone uses a masthead anchor light at times, but in harbor with dinghies buzzing around at night, there is a possibility that some folks returning from festivities ashore may hit you because they once again didn't "look up." One of those Davis low draw lights hanging low in the rigging, either fore or aft, may be a good idea. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 26, 2:29 pm, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: terry wrote: Sailing mode: A trilight at top of mast visible (ignoring angle of heel) completely clear of sails can be seen in the appropriate directions ... I favor a tricolor, especially offshore, but at times a lower set of lights for sailing can be helpful. Before the tricolor became popular, many people did not take the time to "look up" and often missed sailboats nearby at night, especially on bays and inshore waters. When I first fitted a tricolor, I also rigged a DPDT switch for the sailing lights so that "up" turned on the tricolor and "down" turned on the lower lights (r/g at the bow and a white stern light). That way you could not make the error of using both sets simultaneously. Motoring. Trilight off. Operate a white anchor light physically above the trilght and a red-green port-starboard lantern mounted at the crosstrees about 6 to 7 feet below. White above red/green. sails will be down. I cannot be sure off the top of my head but there may be a requirement for at least some fore-and-aft separation between the r/g and the "all-around" white. It may be useful to check this in the regs. Certainly there is a limitation on boat size with this setup. Anchoring: If required, the single white light at top of mast. The same comment above about tricolors may apply in your case to anchor lights. Just about everyone uses a masthead anchor light at times, but in harbor with dinghies buzzing around at night, there is a possibility that some folks returning from festivities ashore may hit you because they once again didn't "look up." One of those Davis low draw lights hanging low in the rigging, either fore or aft, may be a good idea. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegathttp://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare Thanks for the additional comments. We have built and wired new fuse/ switch panel with 24 individual circuits so we could (to be ridiculous and be seen) turn them all on at once! Not mentioned previously was the intention to perhaps add a couple of lights one on each side of the coach house where the port-starboard lamps used to be, a couple of owners ago! These very low power lamps could be used as you suggest but would mainly be intended to be able to see a foothold on the side decks, going forward at night. Regarding spacing; will check the Dept. of Transport Canada Regs. for boats under 8 metres. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 26, 6:29 am, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: terry wrote: .... I cannot be sure off the top of my head but there may be a requirement for at least some fore-and-aft separation between the r/g and the "all-around" white. It may be useful to check this in the regs. Certainly there is a limitation on boat size with this setup. The size limit is 12 meters (~39 feet). I don't think there is any horizontal placement requirement for the sidelights. The all-round white probably needs to be forward of amidships. That shouldn't be a problem on a typical rig. But, I agree that checking the regs is a great idea. In the US the Coast Guard will answer questions on regulations and they are the controlling authority. It might also be nice to have a note from them to show surveyors, marina inspectors and the like. For US sailors the regs live in 33 CFR 84 and should be included as an annex in your copy of the rules. I am in total agreement about the vis of lights high in the rig from small boats or boats that are close. This problem can be worse with some LED set-ups. At anchor lighting the deck is a good idea. We've used garden lights on the corners of the boat though they tend to get pretty dim by morning in the tropics. They may work better in higher lat summers. -- Tom. |
Mast wiring connectors.
"terry" wrote: I was trying not to get into a discussion about the mast lights themselves. There really is no discussion. You have AquaSignal and those that when they grow up want to be AquaSignal. They meet the COLREGS. Typical German products, they do it right. Consider an alternate lamp for tri-color ONLY if approved to meet COLREGS, otherwise forget it. As far as an anchor light is concerned, don't like top of mast location. Much prefer having anchor light hang about 10 ft above deck using forestay and jib halyard. Take it down and store it at daylight. At least when the drunks come back from a night on the town, they have a better chance of seeing a light at lower level. Since you are adding switches, use 3PDT for "sailing" and "steaming". Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsteaming)---(NOsailing)---(Tri-Color Lamp)---(-). Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsailing)---(NOsteaming)---(Steaming Lamps)---(-). 3rd circuit has NOsailing in parallel with NOsteaming to power instrument back lights. The above insures that only one set of lamps can be on at one time. Settles any legal issues before they can develop. As far as mast wiring, hang a 7 ( #14 AWG) conductor bunch lashed to a 1/16" S/S messenger cable inside mast. This will prevent cable stretch, and provide spares if req'd in the future. RG58 is for the CB radio crowd, you want the big stuff, agained lashed to a 1/16" S/S cable to prevent cable stretch and resultant change in impedance which would then require retuning antenna. BTW, Carling will have switches needed. Have fun. Lew |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:11:50 -0700, terry
wrote: New RG58 proposed for mast head VHF whip. RG58 is very lossy for a run to the masthead. Consider something like this: http://www.radiobooks.com/products/rf910.htm Otherwise you will lose over half of your power just getting to the antenna. It makes a big difference, especially on sailboats. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 13:59:01 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote: There really is no discussion. You have AquaSignal and those that when they grow up want to be AquaSignal. They meet the COLREGS. Typical German products, they do it right. No question, they are very good. I had an Aquasignal tri-color on my old sailboat and it was excellent. Never had a problem with it and we started being noticed by commercial shipping. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court. In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor boat rules. Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of gear to charge batteries and running a generator. Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that is the law, then the law is an ass". What say resident counselor Dave? |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 19:32:11 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta" wrote: Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court. In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor boat rules. Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of gear to charge batteries and running a generator. Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that is the law, then the law is an ass". What say resident counselor Dave? Actually the USCG rules refer to (1) A power vessel under way, defined as: The term 'power-driven vessel' means any vessel propelled by machinery; (2) A sailing vessel under way and finally (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld] So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not connected to the propellers. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Mast wiring connectors.
|
Mast wiring connectors.
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote: So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not connected to the propellers. That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote: So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not connected to the propellers. That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com It's not often that I can hear another sailboat's motor running from any distance. If the sails are sheeted in hard and they're going dead into the wind, or if they only have the main up in light winds (again, sheeted in hard), it is fairly obvious they're steaming. Nobody, but nobody, in any of the places I have sailed, uses the steaming dayshape. I did for a while until I got tired of being the only one using it and nobody knowing what it was for. Likewise with using sound signals. Overtaking boats in the channel, I will sometimes sound the requisite two short blasts signaling my intention to pass to their port side. Being inland rules, I'm not "allowed" to proceed until they respond. But they think I'm just honking at them and get all bent out of shape and return the flying bird salute. Sailing or not, under power or not, I tend to apply the General Prudential Rule and assume that everyone on the water intends to run me over. |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Wayne.B" wrote That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Don't bet the farm on it. As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running. Clutch position is not relevant. Lew |
Mast wiring connectors.
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:48:47 -0400, "Armond Perretta" wrote: Unless that "reasonable person" happened to be a judge in Admiralty Court. In gear or out, when the machinery is running, the vessel must follow motor boat rules. Please explain to me the difference between running an engine out of gear to charge batteries and running a generator. Are you saying that if you run a generator you are no longer a sailboat? Highly unlikely. Quoting Dickens' Oliver Twist: "If that is the law, then the law is an ass". Your query was answered by Lew in another post in this thread. It may be worth adding that a generator differs from the ship's machinery in at least one significant way: it cannot power the vessel. As Lew pointed out, the problem is in trying to distinguish between a sailing boat running machinery in gear or out. It basically cannot be done with any degree of certainty. That is why the interpretation of COLREGs in this instance is that a vessel running machinery _capable_ of propelling the vessel is assumed to be "under power" in the standard sense, and hence subject to the motorboat rules. As a practical matter, sailing along and running the machinery in neutral to power the batteries is probably not the best choice for a number of reasons. First, you can get a little "kick" by putting the engine in gear. The noise will be bothersome in any case. Second, it is generally not a good idea to run small or medium-sized diesels without a load, so your engine will benefit from doing a little work while you charge up. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Mast wiring connectors.
wrote:
Actually the USCG rules refer to (1) A power vessel under way, defined as: The term 'power-driven vessel' means any vessel propelled by machinery; (2) A sailing vessel under way and finally (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. [Inld] So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not connected to the propellers. This gets into semantics all too quickly, of course, especially since the COLREGs term "underway" does not mean actually moving, whether under wind power, fossil fuel power, or in the case of a few larger vessels, nuclear power. As Lew has indicated, the reason that running machinery, even out of gear, is considered "under power" is that there is no reliable way for an observer to determine the crossing rules that apply. This is by far the real mission of the COLREGs: to make crossing and passing situations unequivocal and hence avoid collisions. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Mast wiring connectors.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Don't bet the farm on it. As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running. Clutch position is not relevant. In other words, any time I see a sailboat and I suspect an engine is running, I can treat it as a powerboat? That's convenient! Clearly such a simplistic view does not really cover the situation. The point that the lawyer was probably trying to make is that if there were an accident, a sailboat would have a very weak defense if it turned out it could have avoided the accident simply by putting the engine in gear. In fact, there are situations where a sailboat is obligated to start an engine. The rules work because vessels behave in a manner consistent with how they appear. This is why special lights and shapes are generally used when there is a possibility of mis-interpretation. Thus, a sailboat should be treated as a sailboat unless it a clearly being propelled by machinery. Similarly, the sailboat is entitled to act like a sailboat since it knows it is sailing, and that is the way it looks. It is only if a situation arises where the engine could "save the day" would it be required. By your lawyer's logic, any sailboat with an electric motor is by definition a powerboat, because it only the flip of a switch away from being powered. And therefore, it would be reasonable to assume that all sailboats are so powered. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 26, 6:59 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"terry" wrote: I was trying not to get into a discussion about the mast lights themselves. There really is no discussion. You have AquaSignal and those that when they grow up want to be AquaSignal. They meet the COLREGS. Typical German products, they do it right. Consider an alternate lamp for tri-color ONLY if approved to meet COLREGS, otherwise forget it. As far as an anchor light is concerned, don't like top of mast location. Much prefer having anchor light hang about 10 ft above deck using forestay and jib halyard. Take it down and store it at daylight. At least when the drunks come back from a night on the town, they have a better chance of seeing a light at lower level. Since you are adding switches, use 3PDT for "sailing" and "steaming". Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsteaming)---(NOsailing)---(Tri-Color Lamp)---(-). Cross interlock such that: (+)---(NCsailing)---(NOsteaming)---(Steaming Lamps)---(-). 3rd circuit has NOsailing in parallel with NOsteaming to power instrument back lights. The above insures that only one set of lamps can be on at one time. Settles any legal issues before they can develop. As far as mast wiring, hang a 7 ( #14 AWG) conductor bunch lashed to a 1/16" S/S messenger cable inside mast. This will prevent cable stretch, and provide spares if req'd in the future. RG58 is for the CB radio crowd, you want the big stuff, agained lashed to a 1/16" S/S cable to prevent cable stretch and resultant change in impedance which would then require retuning antenna. BTW, Carling will have switches needed. Have fun. Lew Thanks Lew. Yes the RG58 wil have a loss of about 3 Db along the approx 50 feet from VHF to the mast head. That's half the RF power; the unit btw has two output settings one watt and 25 watt. There will also be the same 3 Db loss on receive signal. But RG58 easier to run etc. Also while I haven't looked it up the RG8 will also have some loss, say one Db? So the extra difficulty and cost of RG8 is justified; as compared to putting the VHF whip much lower down on the boat etc. don't think it's major concern. The CB of course is relatively low power, 3 to 5 watts. And at a lower frequency (27 megs.). So the loss on the few feet to its taffrail mount whip will be lower. Yes we toyed with idea of multi pole / multi throw switches but opted for simplicity. If/when sailing or motoring at night one is going to check light by glancing up. This being a very non congested area and since our white all around anchor IS the top part of the trilight assembly I think we will leave it that way. Question: We have a strobe which can be mounted on top of the aforementioned trilight/anchor light assembly to be on its own separate switch and used rarely if ever. Thanks for tip about running wires inside mast on a messenger. Terry |
Mast wiring connectors.
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:02:17 +0700, wrote: So it appears that the USCG does in fact differentiate between sail boats under sail and sailboats under power by the phrase " proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery" which would appear to preclude the necessity of using a "steaming light" when simply running engines to charge batteries, as long as the engines are not connected to the propellers. That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Part of the problem would be for either the CG or another boater from determining if you're being propelled by machinery or just running your engine. If the other boater picks wrong, there could be a problem. It's not often that I can hear another sailboat's motor running from any distance. If the sails are sheeted in hard and they're going dead into the wind, or if they only have the main up in light winds (again, sheeted in hard), it is fairly obvious they're steaming. Nobody, but nobody, in any of the places I have sailed, uses the steaming dayshape. I did for a while until I got tired of being the only one using it and nobody knowing what it was for. Likewise with using sound signals. Overtaking boats in the channel, I will sometimes sound the requisite two short blasts signaling my intention to pass to their port side. Being inland rules, I'm not "allowed" to proceed until they respond. But they think I'm just honking at them and get all bent out of shape and return the flying bird salute. You're not required to use the day shape unless you're on 12 meters or over. I've only seen it once on the bay. I wouldn't say it's always obvious, but it's not about hearing as much as seeing the raw water coming out and wondering. Sometimes people do motorsail with their sails full when they're in get-there mode (not that I think it helps much, but they do). Sound signals are more common here, especially when the fog sets in, but also among the larger powerboats. We use the sound signals in our teaching, but generally not in the marina areas because we don't want to annoy our neighbors... I know, not exactly following the rules, but the horn is available if we can't see or be seen. Every time I've used the sound signal to pass, the other boat has not responded with a sound, but I did get one guy wave me through like a traffic cop, which was fairly humorous. Sailing or not, under power or not, I tend to apply the General Prudential Rule and assume that everyone on the water intends to run me over. Me too. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mast wiring connectors.
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
... "Wayne.B" wrote That would certainly be the common sense interpretation unless it has been modified by some court precedent. Don't bet the farm on it. As was explained by an admiralty lawyer to me, if the engine can drive the prop to propel the boat, you are assumed to be under power if it is running. Clutch position is not relevant. Lew I don't think anyone being careful would bet the farm on it. But, I could easily see having an engine running but not engaged while under sail. Assumptions like yours are good from the perspective of taking fewer chances. I wouldn't want to argue either way in court. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Aug 27, 12:12 am, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: .... As Lew has indicated, the reason that running machinery, even out of gear, is considered "under power" is that there is no reliable way for an observer to determine the crossing rules that apply. ... While I think your conclusions are probably right, I just hate the argument you are making here. I can't think of a single instance where it would be possible for an outside observer to distinguish between a sail boat with propulsive machinery running but not engaged in propulsion and a sail boat with non-propulsive machinery running... Prudence requires the observer to assume that a boat that looks like it is under sail including its lights and shapes is under sail even if it is belching smoke and water. -- Tom. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 06:05:39 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote: As a practical matter, sailing along and running the machinery in neutral to power the batteries is probably not the best choice for a number of reasons. First, you can get a little "kick" by putting the engine in gear. The noise will be bothersome in any case. Second, it is generally not a good idea to run small or medium-sized diesels without a load, so your engine will benefit from doing a little work while you charge up. That is all true but sailboats on distance races do it all the time because they need to keep the batteries charged but can not put the engine in gear. |
Mast wiring connectors.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 08:45:22 -0700, terry
wrote: So the extra difficulty and cost of RG8 is justified; as compared to putting the VHF whip much lower down on the boat etc. don't think it's major concern. You don't need the weight and size of RG8 to get good low loss cable but it does cost more than RG8. I once spent $100+ for a spool of military grade low loss coax insulated with teflon. It made a dramatic improvement in VHF radio performance. |
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