| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
Well, wadda you know?
I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to
play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 17, 7:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. Or you could add a spring starter. Browse http://www.springstarter.com/ |
Well, wadda you know?
"Roger Long" wrote: I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Simple solution. 1) Learn to single hand the boat in and out of dock with just the jib and a dock line. 2) Learn to single hand the boat to pick up a mooring with just a jib and a boat hook. After you have acquired those skills, you will have achieved a degree of freedom you will never forget. The ability to say, "Screw the engine, I don't need it", provides a sense of satisfaction you simply can't describe. BTDT, don't need the T-shirt. Lew |
Well, wadda you know?
"Roger Long" wrote in message ... I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. You've got to spin it up with the decompression cable pulled. Then when you get it turning as fast as you can you release the decompression cable or lever at the same time. The handle pinion should be spring loaded to kick the shaft out and release it as soon as the engine fires up. But you can't do any of this with structure in the way. My advice, get a sawzall and cut away the structure that's in the way and hinge it there or pin it in place so the whole thing can be set aside. What you got there is an example of retards building your boat. Use a couple of teak battens to cover the cut. Wilbur Hubbard |
Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 16, 6:13 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. -- Roger Long Thats crazy..Got a picture? Whats the structure in the way? My 12 hp hand cranking is hard enough, even if you have the room, I bet a 20 HP will be a real back buster. However an extention to the cranking handle sounds easy enough...Unless you had to find a super rare lister hand crank and pay near 300 bucks for it...like the one in the picture ziptied to a stantion..That would be heart breaking. http://sports.webshots.com/photo/230...63212926OGssit Joe |
Well, wadda you know?
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. This is not uncommon. Since the most frequent "failure to start" scenario is dead batteries I often recommend that folks carry a fully charged gel cell battery totally disconnected from everything, and a set of jumper cables. Gel cell batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and by storing it totally disconnected you have very good assurance that it will be there when you need it. It's a lot easier than hand cranking also. |
Well, wadda you know?
"Roger Long" wrote in
: It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. Roger, have you ever had her emergency tiller hooked up and cruised around with it? Lionheart, an Amel Sharki 41 ketch, has a hole in the aft cabin overhead and a beautifully-made mahogany tiller attachment to the rudder post that fits through that hole so you can steer her from standing on the aft cabin with the equally-beautifully-made mahogany tiller handle. You never know when her triple redundant electromechanical B&G Pilot or massively cabled steering wheel are going to fail....(c; "Real Sailors", of course, will leave the tiller handle in place and just remove the wheel and autopilot....(c; |
Well, wadda you know?
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
"Lew Hodgett" wrote Simple solution. 1) Learn to (be a competent sailor) Excellent advice and already followed. I used to sail the Solings backwards around Boston Harbor to the amusement of the other club members. Daysailing is tough without an engine unless you can completely ignore the schedules of shore life. Maine also has some combinations of calm, tide, and steep shores that would make you want to stay pretty far out if sailing without an engine, at least in modern boats. There is a reason why the traditional craft had such huge rigs and reefed in 8 - 10 knots of wind. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
"Joe" wrote Thats crazy..Got a picture? Whats the structure in the way? The structure is the fiberglass molding that makes up the entire galley structure. It's not like some worker put some trim on in the wrong place or an owner made some modifications. The reason I would be leery about an extension on the handle is that the mechanism that prevents the handle turning when the engine starts and breaking your arm is pretty minimalist. (Looks like the Lister is similar). A little extra friction in the shaft both would transmit torque and keep the shaft from sliding forward enough for the lugs to disengage. I'm sure the force of shattering your forearm would loosen it up enough so that the handle didn't go spinning around but it would be small comfort at that point. The combination of extra handle weight and turning force acting over the longer lever arm would considerably increase the friction on the shaft. I think I'm going to clean up the whole rig by taking the mechanism off and going the emergency battery route. You sound like a big guy and, if your 12 hp is that hard to get going, it's another vote that starting this 20 hp engine cold would be unlikely. I've got pictures but they are on the office computer and I won't be there for a few days. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
"Larry" wrote Roger, have you ever had her emergency tiller hooked up and cruised around with it? No, but there is no question it would be a bear. I have fitted it at the dock so I know there are no clearance problems. However, I now have the vane gear for back up. I can use it directly or pull on the control lines to move the rudder after cutting and tying off the ends. I would only need the tiller if the rudder quadrant came off but it is pretty massive on this installation. I'm inspired now though to try it. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:12:20 -0700, Bil wrote:
On Aug 17, 7:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote: I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. Or you could add a spring starter. Browse http://www.springstarter.com/ Or to be even more nautical you could add one of those hydraulic starters where you madly pump up hydraulic pressure until just before the heart attack and then open the valve.......and it almost catches. Nah, do what the big boys do and install a starting battery. I assume that you have some sort of small portable generator for emergencies so if everything goes to hell you can spend the afternoon fishing off the stern while the Honda genny charges the starting battery enough to kick over the main engine. Rationalize that it probably wouldn't have started an anyway.... Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
"Michael Porter" wrote in message
... wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. I knew of a beautiful Cape Dory 36 that was bought by a man that had a Swan 40 something that he couldn't handle, but wanted all of the amenities of the larger boat. The first thing he did was hire a marine carpenter to redo the interior and then added a Balmar genset which went under the cockpit aft of the engine. After that she sat about 2 inches down at the stern and the generator which had a one cylinder something never ran right and when it did it was so noisy that they couldn't stay below. Now for the fun part, to get to the stuffing gland or the steering quadrant, you had to unhook the generator and slide it out onto the quarter berth and move it aft so you could get into that space. As much as I can remember this boat was very seldom sailed and just motored from marina to marina. Leanne |
Well, wadda you know?
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 06:26:57 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: I think I'm going to clean up the whole rig by taking the mechanism off and going the emergency battery route. You sound like a big guy and, if your 12 hp is that hard to get going, it's another vote that starting this 20 hp engine cold would be unlikely. I used to have a 2 cylinder Volvo diesel, about 12 or 13 hp, that could be crank started. It did take a lot of effort though, and I was a lot younger then. An emergenct battery is a good plan. |
Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 17, 5:26 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Joe" wrote Thats crazy..Got a picture? Whats the structure in the way? The structure is the fiberglass molding that makes up the entire galley structure. It's not like some worker put some trim on in the wrong place or an owner made some modifications. The reason I would be leery about an extension on the handle is that the mechanism that prevents the handle turning when the engine starts and breaking your arm is pretty minimalist. (Looks like the Lister is similar). A little extra friction in the shaft both would transmit torque and keep the shaft from sliding forward enough for the lugs to disengage. I'm sure the force of shattering your forearm would loosen it up enough so that the handle didn't go spinning around but it would be small comfort at that point. The combination of extra handle weight and turning force acting over the longer lever arm would considerably increase the friction on the shaft. I think I'm going to clean up the whole rig by taking the mechanism off and going the emergency battery route. You sound like a big guy and, if your 12 hp is that hard to get going, it's another vote that starting this 20 hp engine cold would be unlikely. After thinking about it, it may not be as hard to start your 20 as my 12. Reason is I have to spin a 200 pound armature with the crankshaft. Usually starts first time, but in a hot engine room your blinded by sweat in your eyes, and you damn sure want enough speed to compress and not back kick, as the "lug" stays engaged. Good thing is once it starts I have full air exchange in the engine room ever 30 seconds as the engine is air cooled. Problem with an extra battery bank is you also need to buy and carry a spare starter, or rebuild parts to be truely redundant. Joe I've got pictures but they are on the office computer and I won't be there for a few days. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:26:10 -0400, Michael Porter
wrote: wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com Do you mean that 3 staterooms, en suite, is not standard in a 30 footer? And the lounge wouldn't normally seat 10 for a formal meal? And where will the crew's quarters be? My goodness, what are you people doing with all that computer help it should be simple. =:-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:22:24 -0400, "Leanne" wrote:
"Michael Porter" wrote in message .. . wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. I knew of a beautiful Cape Dory 36 that was bought by a man that had a Swan 40 something that he couldn't handle, but wanted all of the amenities of the larger boat. The first thing he did was hire a marine carpenter to redo the interior and then added a Balmar genset which went under the cockpit aft of the engine. After that she sat about 2 inches down at the stern and the generator which had a one cylinder something never ran right and when it did it was so noisy that they couldn't stay below. Now for the fun part, to get to the stuffing gland or the steering quadrant, you had to unhook the generator and slide it out onto the quarter berth and move it aft so you could get into that space. As much as I can remember this boat was very seldom sailed and just motored from marina to marina. Leanne Poor design. Should have either used a smaller gen-set or mounted it under the forward berth =:-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 16, 8:12 pm, Bil wrote:
On Aug 17, 7:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote: I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. Or you could add a spring starter. Browsehttp://www.springstarter.com/ That's pretty cool Bil. Joe |
Well, wadda you know?
wrote:
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:26:10 -0400, Michael Porter wrote: wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com Do you mean that 3 staterooms, en suite, is not standard in a 30 footer? And the lounge wouldn't normally seat 10 for a formal meal? And where will the crew's quarters be? My goodness, what are you people doing with all that computer help it should be simple. =:-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) Yeah, well . . . most designers are a little brain-damaged, I guess. why else would we be in a field where you have to do a lot of work and make very little money? I have spent far too much time upside-down with my head in the bilges of gold-platers trying to fix something I could deal with in 20 min if I had it on a bench in front of me to have a very good opinion of production "yachts", especially the fancy ones. No doubt a pernicious conspiracy between marketing people and owners with the express purpose of frustrating designers and boatyard workers. :) Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Well, wadda you know?
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 10:03:07 -0400, Michael Porter
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:26:10 -0400, Michael Porter wrote: wrote: Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) chuckle yep! but that's usually the fault of owners who want everything including the kitchen sink in a 30' boat but won't accept the loss of accommodation space to a proper engineroom. Or of marketing types ditto. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com Do you mean that 3 staterooms, en suite, is not standard in a 30 footer? And the lounge wouldn't normally seat 10 for a formal meal? And where will the crew's quarters be? My goodness, what are you people doing with all that computer help it should be simple. =:-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) Yeah, well . . . most designers are a little brain-damaged, I guess. why else would we be in a field where you have to do a lot of work and make very little money? I have spent far too much time upside-down with my head in the bilges of gold-platers trying to fix something I could deal with in 20 min if I had it on a bench in front of me to have a very good opinion of production "yachts", especially the fancy ones. No doubt a pernicious conspiracy between marketing people and owners with the express purpose of frustrating designers and boatyard workers. :) Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Marine Design mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com From all the articles about "how to design a yacht" I've always assumed that the first task was to design a hull having the desired properties; second, design a rig that wouldn't't fall over; third, figure our how to house the crew; and lastly how to cram the motor in .... somewhere. Logical, perhaps, but highly frustrating when you can see something but can't reach it to adjust it... Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
|
Well, wadda you know?
On Aug 17, 4:06 am, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Come on Bruce, boat designers know what they are doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F_GW1ep5ls Joe |
Well, wadda you know?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:34:00 -0700, Joe
wrote: On Aug 17, 4:06 am, wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: I went back down to the boat for something I forgot and decided I wanted to play around a little more. I've been telling myself since I got the boat that I should try hand starting the diesel. Better to climb the learning curve at the dock than while drifting down towards a steep lee shore after some electrical system disaster. I also have the hand start ability factored into my battery management strategy. Thanks to this newsgroup, I know that hand starting a 20 hp, twin cylinder, diesel is near the edge of feasibility but doable. I pulled the big forged or cast iron starting handle out of its handy brackets next to the engine and put it in place. HUH!? The fiberglass structure of the engine compartment enclosure makes it impossible to turn the handle more than a quarter turn. Since hand starting requires getting it spinning rapidly with the cylinders decompressed and then using the inertia of the flywheel and engine to (hopefully) kick it into life as you continue to assist with the crank, there is no way this could begin to work. I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats unless they were originally delivered with a special handle that the PO perhaps replaced with the stock item (judging by the paint) not realizing that it couldn't possibly start the engine. This design defect has persisted through multiple models of a 1980 boat without ever coming to the notice of the builders or being noted on the owner's group web site. This is the most common engine installed in the class. It's a perfect lesson of the test-everything-and-assume-nothing principle. I now have a conundrum. I can spend more money to have the handle cut apart and an extension welded in. The leverage of the cranking force working over the longer length makes proper functioning questionable unless some structure with a bearing is provided. I just spent a couple hundred dollars on insurance in the form of chain so I'm not sure a starting handle for an engine that can just barely be hand started is the wisest next expenditure. I may just remove all of the hand start apparatus, which is pretty extensive and in the way on this particular model, and join the ranks of larger boat owners who live with the fact that their engines are not going to start without a functioning battery and electrical system. Hey! Isn't the Roger Long who designs boats? Now you know how the rest of us feel when we discover that to save space, make the hull a better shape, or some other trivial reason you can't get THAT nut off until you remove THIS thing over here :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Come on Bruce, boat designers know what they are doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F_GW1ep5ls Joe Well, of course you are correct - HOWEVER - what they are doing is perhaps not what I wish they had been doing when I am working on a boat. For example, I'm sure that America's Cup boats are designed to be the most efficient sailing boats in the world, but I doubt very much that the designer gave much thought to changing the filters on the auxiliary engine..... On the other hand, if I were paying for the design of an America's Cup boat perhaps I would have less interest in how to change the filters..... As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
wrote in message ... As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard |
Well, wadda you know?
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: Never mind the boat won't sail The old lady might be happy with a decent powerboat, and you don't need high speed or big thirsty engine[s]. If you can install them low enough to serve as useful ballast for your displacement hull boat, then by all means have a ton of batteries. I am sixty years old, with a bad heart, and I dont't want a sailboat, although they certainly have their place. Casady |
Well, wadda you know?
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Never mind the boat won't sail The old lady might be happy with a decent powerboat, and you don't need high speed or big thirsty engine[s]. If you can install them low enough to serve as useful ballast for your displacement hull boat, then by all means have a ton of batteries. I am sixty years old, with a bad heart, and I dont't want a sailboat, although they certainly have their place. I'm sixty years old myself with an excellent heart. I've taken care of myself. I've eaten right, I've exercised all my long life and still do - three hours a day competitive cycle training. I'm on pace to have more than 10,000 miles this year. I can do a 40K individual time trial in under 62 minutes. I'm not fat. 5'10" at 160 pounds. My resting heart rate is 35-40bpm. My max heart rate is 170bpm. My VO2 max is 75 ml/kg. I can pedal for hours at 85 to 95% of my max heart rate. I can sprint my up to 40mph on a level road with calm winds. I've never smoked. Never will. I can sail single-handed and can handle my ground tackle without windlass or winch. I can swim for miles and swim fast up to my boat's bow when it's anchored, pop up out of the water and grab the bow pulpit and swing myself up on deck using it. I can run, jump eat good meals without suffering from heartburn or what's that other overeater's disorder?? Oh yeah, acid reflux. You people who live with 'bad hearts' have done it to yourselves. You never took care of yourself. You can't expect to be healthy unless you live a healthy lifestyle. That includes eating right and exercising. That's another area where women are bad for you. Most of them kill you with the food they cook for you. All saturated fats and sugars and cholesterol. Wilbur Hubbard |
Well, wadda you know?
|
Well, wadda you know?
On 2007-08-16 19:13:57 -0400, "Roger Long" said:
I can categorically say that no one has ever hand started one of these boats Our Yanmar doesn't even have provisions for a crank, and the flywheel's too small to give much momentum (yeah, I know there's a more accurate word) anyway. At the risk of being repetative, we've found that our little 12v solar cell will bring the "better" battery up enough to start the engine in a few hours' sun, faster if the decompression levers are thrown for the spin-up. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Well, wadda you know?
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard Willie, you know so little about boats that it is very difficult to discuss them with you. I mentioned in my post that this was a Farr 40, which is one of the most successful boats that have ever been designed, It is an all out racing boat. It has an open cockpit, nearly a third of the length of the boat to give the helmsman and rope handlers plenty of room. It has a small galley because these people are racing, not eating gourmet meals and extra equipment makes the boat weigh more. There are large areas of the deck where carbon fiber is used and they don't paint these areas -- to save weight. The running back stays have the cover stripped off the kevlar core from just above the height that a crew member can reach up to the mast because the cover has weight that isn't needed and as one of the crew said, "that cover missing up there is equal to one more man sitting on the rail. Their battery bank is just large enough to keep the nav lights and instruments going for the length of the race. The tanks are as small as possible and in the better crewed boats the length of the race X an adequate amount of water per man per day is all that is carried. The better crews also weigh each man's gear before they bring it aboard and if you are over weight you take out enough to get the load down to the limit - say, 5 pounds - or they don't load your bag. But then, as Malcolm Forbes said, "The dumbest people I know are those who know it all." You must have some rather odd fetishes as you seem to like to put your foot in your mouth so much. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
There's a world of difference between a gas engine and a diesel.
I have no doubt that larger diesels can be hand started but, as you said, set up has a lot to do with it. Working in the confines of the typical small boat cabin without being able to use your body effeciently and the crank at an angle is going to make a big difference. The real world, reported experience, here and other places, is that with the typical sailboat set up, 12 -15 is a bear and 20 can be done but not reliably. I talked to a fellow yesterday who got his 3 cylinder going once but was never able to duplicate the feat. I'm sure there are exceptions. With the boat and installation designed from the beginning to make hand starting a priority, starting a larger engine would be possible. Problem is, it is generally an afterthought if it is given any thought at all. -- Roger Long |
Well, wadda you know?
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats ... I will be sure to ask Florence Arthaud about this the next time we do lunch. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Well, wadda you know?
wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Wilbur Hubbard Willie, you know so little about boats that it is very difficult to discuss them with you. He knows even less about women, though how that could even be possible eludes me. |
Well, wadda you know?
wrote in message ... On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message . .. As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard Willie, you know so little about boats that it is very difficult to discuss them with you. I mentioned in my post that this was a Farr 40, which is one of the most successful boats that have ever been designed, It is an all out racing boat. It has an open cockpit, nearly a third of the length of the boat to give the helmsman and rope handlers plenty of room. It has a small galley because these people are racing, not eating gourmet meals and extra equipment makes the boat weigh more. There are large areas of the deck where carbon fiber is used and they don't paint these areas -- to save weight. The running back stays have the cover stripped off the kevlar core from just above the height that a crew member can reach up to the mast because the cover has weight that isn't needed and as one of the crew said, "that cover missing up there is equal to one more man sitting on the rail. Their battery bank is just large enough to keep the nav lights and instruments going for the length of the race. The tanks are as small as possible and in the better crewed boats the length of the race X an adequate amount of water per man per day is all that is carried. The better crews also weigh each man's gear before they bring it aboard and if you are over weight you take out enough to get the load down to the limit - say, 5 pounds - or they don't load your bag. But then, as Malcolm Forbes said, "The dumbest people I know are those who know it all." You must have some rather odd fetishes as you seem to like to put your foot in your mouth so much. It would be helpful if you took a little time to learn how to read. Then you need to take some more time to ruminate upon what you've read. Perhaps if you take my advice you will not jump to erroneous conclusions that make you appear a little daft with such startling regularity. I did not cast aspersions upon the Farr. I think it's a fine boat because it puts the priorities right. First, it's a sailboat. That's how things should go down. The comment in another post was that some dippy woman hated it because it only had a one-burner stove. This brought to mind how good boats like the Farr would not sell to any couple because the woman would not have it because of the lack of "amenities" and the wimpy man, rather than put his foot down and say, "I don't care what YOU want, woman! I'm getting the Farr because first it's a sailboat. If you want a floating condo then forget it. Just stay home and enjoy your amenities. They don't belong in a boat because a boat that has them all can hardly get out of its own way! Now, shut your pie hole before I slap it shut!!!" Do you get it now? Or are you one of those pussy-whipped men who are afraid of your own wife? Wilbur Hubbard |
Well, wadda you know?
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:59:37 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: The real world, reported experience, here and other places, is that with the typical sailboat set up, 12 -15 is a bear and 20 can be done but not reliably. I talked to a fellow yesterday who got his 3 cylinder going once but was never able to duplicate the feat. When hand starting a diesel a wee shot of starting ether can make all the difference, emergencies only of course. If you can get enough flywheel momentum to take you through one or two compression strokes, that is usually enough. |
Well, wadda you know?
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:46:19 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
we've found that our little 12v solar cell will bring the "better" battery up enough to start the engine in a few hours' sun, faster if the decompression levers are thrown for the spin-up. That's a good point about using the decompression lever for a weak battery start. |
Well, wadda you know?
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:59:37 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: I'm sure there are exceptions. With the boat and installation designed from the beginning to make hand starting a priority, starting a larger engine would be possible. Problem is, it is generally an afterthought if it is given any thought at all. Here's a possible invention that I'll give away in a public forum: How about a geared adapter to let you spin the flywheel with a cordless electric drill? Some of the better 14 and 18 volt drills have amazing power in a small package. A lot of people carry one on the boat already. Personally I still prefer carrying a small to mid-sized spare battery, preferably a gel cell for long charge retention. |
Well, wadda you know?
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 11:50:34 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:59:17 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message ... As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove? Women are the primary reason why so many sailboats today are such poor excuses as boats. The little woman does not have any idea about what things should take priority. About the difference between a good boat and a poor boat. To women a big apartment-size galley is a must have. And a big bathroom with hot shower and vanity and lots of lights for putting on make-up. Also a very large dinette is a must so she can cook and entertain. And a refrigerator/freezer (stand up, of course). Never mind the boat won't sail. Never mind the cockpit's impossible large. Never mind the tankage puts the boat well below her lines. Never mind you can't get to the motor because kitchen cabinets are built all around it. Never mind you have to ship two thousand pounds of batteries and inverters to run her blow dryer, clothes dryer, and microwave. Never mind all those large dangerous windows she's just got to have so it looks like a house from inside. Nope, just built a boat like a floating apartment and the women will say. "That's the one I want." You know what's really more disgraceful than this? It's the man who knows he's buying a piece of crap but does it anyway just to please the little woman. Wilbur Hubbard Willie, you know so little about boats that it is very difficult to discuss them with you. I mentioned in my post that this was a Farr 40, which is one of the most successful boats that have ever been designed, It is an all out racing boat. It has an open cockpit, nearly a third of the length of the boat to give the helmsman and rope handlers plenty of room. It has a small galley because these people are racing, not eating gourmet meals and extra equipment makes the boat weigh more. There are large areas of the deck where carbon fiber is used and they don't paint these areas -- to save weight. The running back stays have the cover stripped off the kevlar core from just above the height that a crew member can reach up to the mast because the cover has weight that isn't needed and as one of the crew said, "that cover missing up there is equal to one more man sitting on the rail. Their battery bank is just large enough to keep the nav lights and instruments going for the length of the race. The tanks are as small as possible and in the better crewed boats the length of the race X an adequate amount of water per man per day is all that is carried. The better crews also weigh each man's gear before they bring it aboard and if you are over weight you take out enough to get the load down to the limit - say, 5 pounds - or they don't load your bag. But then, as Malcolm Forbes said, "The dumbest people I know are those who know it all." You must have some rather odd fetishes as you seem to like to put your foot in your mouth so much. It would be helpful if you took a little time to learn how to read. Then you need to take some more time to ruminate upon what you've read. Perhaps if you take my advice you will not jump to erroneous conclusions that make you appear a little daft with such startling regularity. I did not cast aspersions upon the Farr. I think it's a fine boat because it puts the priorities right. First, it's a sailboat. That's how things should go down. The comment in another post was that some dippy woman hated it because it only had a one-burner stove. This brought to mind how good boats like the Farr would not sell to any couple because the woman would not have it because of the lack of "amenities" and the wimpy man, rather than put his foot down and say, "I don't care what YOU want, woman! I'm getting the Farr because first it's a sailboat. If you want a floating condo then forget it. Just stay home and enjoy your amenities. They don't belong in a boat because a boat that has them all can hardly get out of its own way! Now, shut your pie hole before I slap it shut!!!" Do you get it now? Or are you one of those pussy-whipped men who are afraid of your own wife? Wilbur Hubbard Willie boy, talking with you is about like stomping on cockroaches. You are zigzagging this way, you're zigzagging that way. If you take the time to read the message you will see that I said was "As an aside, the first Farr 40 my wife saw didn't impress her one little bit. No back on the cockpit and a stupid little one burner stove?" You immediately went into your tirade about women - and how they effected sail boat design. From your remarks you didn't appear to know what a Farr 40 is as you preceded to describe a boat that is almost exactly the opposite to a Farr design. Which differences I then took the trouble to explain to you so you wouldn't make such a ass of yourself again by mistaking a Farr racing boat for a family cruiser. And how do you repay my kindness in trying to make you look just a little bit less like a fool? No Thank you". Just another anti female tirade. Willie boy, with all your anti-female ranting and raving I'm having a little bit of trouble in getting a handle on your preferences ...... Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Well, wadda you know?
|
Well, wadda you know?
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:52:58 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:45:42 +0700, wrote: Willie boy, with all your anti-female ranting and raving I'm having a little bit of trouble in getting a handle on your preferences ...... Me too. Although I might be called a "sensitive" type with women, treating them with love and respect, were I a brute I would still want a woman with me. I am, after all, a man. --Vic Yes, and as somebody or another said, "you can catch more flies with honey then with vinegar". Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:44 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com