SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Hi Skip:

Since you are a vessel 12 meters (39' 3") you are required to carry a
copy of the COLREGS. Do you hvae one?

Since you do please read RULE 5

Ive copied from http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_i_b.jsp#a9
below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rule 5 Lookout

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 5
This is a basic Rule, the violation of which is so often the cause of
small-craft accidents - collisions with other boats or stationary
objects. On smaller vessels, the "lookout" is nominally the helmsman,
and this is acceptable if he is aware of his responsibility and
performs his duties. He must be able to hear as well as see potential
dangers. If in doubt, a skipper should post an additional person with
the sole duties of lookout; this is particularly necessary in
situations of reduced visibility. It is even possible that two
lookouts will be necessary - one forward and one aft. Should a
collision occur, failure to have a proper lookout would be strongly
held against you in court.

This is also the Rule that is obviously violated by all single-handing
skippers on long voyages, or even on voyages of more than a few hours.
Note that the Rule states that a lookout is required "at all times" -
this includes when a vessel is at anchor."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!
Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Bob wrote:
Hi Skip:

Since you are a vessel 12 meters (39' 3") you are required to carry a
copy of the COLREGS. Do you hvae one?

What do you figure - that Dog will strike him dead because he doesn't
have some dopey book?

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Bob wrote:
Hi Skip:

Since you are a vessel 12 meters (39' 3") you are required to carry a
copy of the COLREGS. Do you hvae one?

What do you figure - that Dog will strike him dead because he doesn't have
some dopey book?

The Coasties don't really care whether or not someone considers the COLREGS
to be "some dopey book." It's mandatory equipment on vessels greater than 12
meters. I carry it on Essie (at only 30 feet) because it's chock full of
stuff that anyone who calls themselves "sailor" should know. If you're
boarded, are required to have it, and don't have it, you'll likely be cited
for it.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Skip:

Since you are a vessel 12 meters (39' 3") you are required to carry a
copy of the COLREGS. Do you hvae one?

Since you do please read RULE 5

Ive copied from http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_i_b.jsp#a9
below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rule 5 Lookout

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 5
This is a basic Rule, the violation of which is so often the cause of
small-craft accidents - collisions with other boats or stationary
objects. On smaller vessels, the "lookout" is nominally the helmsman,
and this is acceptable if he is aware of his responsibility and
performs his duties. He must be able to hear as well as see potential
dangers. If in doubt, a skipper should post an additional person with
the sole duties of lookout; this is particularly necessary in
situations of reduced visibility. It is even possible that two
lookouts will be necessary - one forward and one aft. Should a
collision occur, failure to have a proper lookout would be strongly
held against you in court.

This is also the Rule that is obviously violated by all single-handing
skippers on long voyages, or even on voyages of more than a few hours.
Note that the Rule states that a lookout is required "at all times" -
this includes when a vessel is at anchor."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!
Bob


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also misunderstands
this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless they're
dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or sailing.

Good luck in your effort to educate Skippy. I doubt it takes, though.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Bob wrote:
Hi Skip:

Since you are a vessel 12 meters (39' 3") you are required to carry
a
copy of the COLREGS. Do you hvae one?

What do you figure - that Dog will strike him dead because he doesn't
have some dopey book?

If he doesn't get himself killed first it might result in a citation
from the Coast Guard should he get inspected. But, the way he carries
on, it will be just one of many.

He's got a laptop so all he needs to do is download it to his computer.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

If they insist on a hard copy he can always print a copy.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/11/2007 8:23 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rule 5 Lookout

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 5
This is a basic Rule, the violation of which is so often the cause of
small-craft accidents - collisions with other boats or stationary
objects. On smaller vessels, the "lookout" is nominally the helmsman,
and this is acceptable if he is aware of his responsibility and
performs his duties. He must be able to hear as well as see potential
dangers. If in doubt, a skipper should post an additional person with
the sole duties of lookout; this is particularly necessary in
situations of reduced visibility. It is even possible that two
lookouts will be necessary - one forward and one aft. Should a
collision occur, failure to have a proper lookout would be strongly
held against you in court.

This is also the Rule that is obviously violated by all single-handing
skippers on long voyages, or even on voyages of more than a few hours.
Note that the Rule states that a lookout is required "at all times" -
this includes when a vessel is at anchor."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!
Bob


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also misunderstands
this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless they're
dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or sailing.

Nope, that's not the way the courts read it. And, although its not
discussed much here, captains are not only responsible for knowing the
rules as stated in the ColRegs, they are responsible for understanding
how the courts have interpreted them. This is an aspect where
admiralty law differs from "land based" law. There is a huge amount
of information left out of the ColRegs; one must look to the courts
for a full understanding of the rules. And of course, one must be
familiar with the "ordinary practice of seamen," which certainly
leaves you out.

There have been a number of cases where anchored vessels have been
found at fault for not keeping a lookout. However, they generally
involve situations where a vessel anchored in or too close to a channel.


Good luck in your effort to educate Skippy. I doubt it takes, though.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

....
Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!

Yes but just about all vessels that go off shore are in violation of
rule 5 most of the time. As nearly as I can make out fishing vessels
never keep any watch at all, but even commercial carriers are pretty
bad about watch keeping at sea. The "good news" for small boat
operators is that it is unlikely that we will damage the vessel that
runs us down so if we don't keep a good watch we probably aren't
endangering anyone but ourselves. Still, I'm not totally in love
with Skip's watch keeping system. Leaving the RADAR on 24 miles is a
mistake. Most targets will not show at 24 miles and closer targets
may be lost in the clutter. Also intermittent targets will only be
evident if you watch the ppi closely for several scans. Good practice
when only one set is available is to watch the screen for several
scans at long range and then repeat at medium and then short range
periodically. It is also very important to make a careful visual
scan on a regular basis. In clear weather I've found that we almost
always make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

-- Tom.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/11/2007 8:23 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rule 5 Lookout

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT
AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full
appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 5
This is a basic Rule, the violation of which is so often the cause
of
small-craft accidents - collisions with other boats or stationary
objects. On smaller vessels, the "lookout" is nominally the
helmsman,
and this is acceptable if he is aware of his responsibility and
performs his duties. He must be able to hear as well as see
potential
dangers. If in doubt, a skipper should post an additional person
with
the sole duties of lookout; this is particularly necessary in
situations of reduced visibility. It is even possible that two
lookouts will be necessary - one forward and one aft. Should a
collision occur, failure to have a proper lookout would be strongly
held against you in court.

This is also the Rule that is obviously violated by all
single-handing
skippers on long voyages, or even on voyages of more than a few
hours.
Note that the Rule states that a lookout is required "at all
times" -
this includes when a vessel is at anchor."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!
Bob


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also
misunderstands this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.

Nope, that's not the way the courts read it. And, although its not
discussed much here, captains are not only responsible for knowing the
rules as stated in the ColRegs, they are responsible for understanding
how the courts have interpreted them. This is an aspect where
admiralty law differs from "land based" law. There is a huge amount
of information left out of the ColRegs; one must look to the courts
for a full understanding of the rules. And of course, one must be
familiar with the "ordinary practice of seamen," which certainly
leaves you out.

There have been a number of cases where anchored vessels have been
found at fault for not keeping a lookout. However, they generally
involve situations where a vessel anchored in or too close to a
channel.

And because their lawyers sucked. Probably as stupid as Dave. Rule 5 is
clearly listed under Steering and Sailing Rules. Therefore, Rule 5
applies only to vessels engaged in steering and sailing. There is no way
a vessel anchored is steering or sailing. What kind of a knucklehead
does a judge have to be to misinterpret something this clear?

Appeal the damned thing to the SCOTUS. I would. I hate it when judges
legislate from the bench in contradiction of written existing laws which
even a two-year-old could understand.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......




"Wilbur Hubbard" wilbu
anews.com:


One correction, Bob, but don't feel badly because you're not the only
one confused by it. Jeff, who posts here regularly, also
misunderstands this rule but he's otherwise got them down pat.

Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless they're
dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or sailing.

Good luck in your effort to educate Skippy. I doubt it takes, though.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

" wrote in
oups.com:

...
Sitting at the nav station typing 500 word posts and looking at a
RADAR screen every 15 min violates COLREG RULE 5. Get out of the
office and sail your boat!

Yes but just about all vessels that go off shore are in violation of
rule 5 most of the time.

Neither agree or disagree

As nearly as I can make out fishing vessels
never keep any watch at all, but even commercial carriers are pretty
bad about watch keeping at sea.

Based on what first hand knowledge?

The "good news" for small boat
operators is that it is unlikely that we will damage the vessel that
runs us down so if we don't keep a good watch we probably aren't
endangering anyone but ourselves. Still, I'm not totally in love
with Skip's watch keeping system. Leaving the RADAR on 24 miles is a
mistake.

Yes and no..... for ships, one set on 24, one on 12 with occasional
shifts down is great.... offshore for small boats, leave it on 12 ( you
should still see any closer targets if you know how to use the radar)
with occasional shifts down in reduced vis.

Most targets will not show at 24 miles and closer targets
may be lost in the clutter. Also intermittent targets will only be
evident if you watch the ppi closely for several scans.

Again, yes and no.... depends on your system....etc.

Good practice
when only one set is available is to watch the screen for several
scans at long range and then repeat at medium and then short range
periodically. It is also very important to make a careful visual
scan on a regular basis.


Nothing wrong with this.

In clear weather I've found that we almost
always make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.


G Again, depends on your system


otn

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Bob wrote in news:1186869969.246902.237930
@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a PROPER LOOKOUT BY SIGHT AND
HEARING AS WELL AS BY ALL AVAILABLE MEANS appropriate in the
prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal
of the situation and of the risk of collision.



Except, of course, Around Alone sailors advertising major corporations, who
seem immune from all these little indignities sleeping in their racks,
ALONE, out on the oceans.

Notice how it doesn't say anything about computers and radars with
computer......a point.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:16:59 -0700, "
wrote:

In clear weather I've found that we almost
always make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

If so, I'd argue that you need a better radar. We usually pick up
small fiberglass boats in the mid 20 ft range at around 4 miles on the
radar and I often need binoculars to find them visually unless they
are under sail. Our radar is a 3 year old Furuno with a 4 kw dome
scanner about 25 feet off the water. Getting gain and sea clutter
properly adjusted is one of the keys to good performance. I also like
the electronic averaging function which combines multiple scans to
enhance the image.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 11, 9:57 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:16:59 -0700, "

. We usually pick up
small fiberglass boats in the mid 20 ft range at around 4 miles on the
radar and I often need binoculars to find them visually unless they
are under sail.


Any of those mid 20s foot boats have wood masts????
Stealthy Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"otnmbrd" wrote
Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"

.... then stand on your head and spell "rhinoceros" ...

Unless there are unambiguous definitions of "proper look-out" and "all
available means" and "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances" somewhere
in there, any competent attorney should be able to convince any reasonable
judge that these is more guidelines than actual rules.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote
no vessel has the right of way through another vessel!

That's the whole COLREGS. The rest is commentary. (I am, in fact, standing
on one foot.)

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

If you really want to understand these rules, get a copy of "Farwell's
Rules of the Nautical Road". It has chapters on each rule, and
discusses all the court cases and how they've interpreted each. As far
as a "proper look-out" probably all of us violate that rule every time
we go out. Here's why:

Pg. 141 - Note 45. "The Supreme Court long ago established that the
lookout
must be exclusively employed in the lookout duties. (Supreme Court
Case
cited here).
Note 46. (court case cited here)..."a proper lookout must be someone
other
than the deck officer or helmsman"... (another court case cited)...
"required lookout can have no other duties that detract from the
keeping of
a proper lookout:.

That being said, there appears
to be a move underway to revisit the "one man bridge organization" or
OMBO.

Another comment out of Farwell's:
__________________
The term look-out implies watching and listening so that there is
awareness
of what is happening around the vessel. The emphasis is on performing
the
action, not on the person.

Senate Report 96-979 which accompanies Rule 5, permits the helmsman to
serve
as lookout:

On vessels where there is an unobstructed all-round view provided at
the
steering station, as on certain pleasure craft, fishing boats, and
towing
vessels, or where there is no impairment of night vision or other
impediment
to keeping a proper lookout, the watch officer or helmsman may safely
serve
as the lookout. However, it is expected that this practice will only
be
followed after the situation has been carefully assessed on each
occasion,
and it has been clearly established that it is prudent to do so. Full
account shall be taken of all relevant factors, including but not
limited to
the state of the weather, conditions of visibility, traffic density,
and
proximity of navigational hazards. It is not the intent of these rules
to
require additional personnel forward, if none is required to enhance
safety.

S. Rep. No. 979, 96 th Cong., 2d Sess. 7-8 (1980).
___________________________________________

The OMBO is still highly contested, and the courts still much prefer
a
dedicated lookout. Of course all this is moot unless you have a
collision
and end up in court, in which case the first thing they're going to
look at
is if you and the other boat had "proper look-outs".

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

* Ernest Scribbler wrote, On 8/12/2007 6:10 AM:
"otnmbrd" wrote
Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5, then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"

... then stand on your head and spell "rhinoceros" ...

Unless there are unambiguous definitions of "proper look-out" and "all
available means" and "appropriate in the prevailing circumstances" somewhere
in there, any competent attorney should be able to convince any reasonable
judge that these is more guidelines than actual rules.


Actually, there are such definitions. Read a book such as Farwells
and you'll start to understand. And remember, Admiralty Courts are
not the same as the normal courts you see on TV. Actually, at some
levels in the US they are the same, but most of the time they follow
the established precedents.

Here's a link to an appeal court's ruling that I found interesting
because it is a rare case where a boat was found 100% at fault, rather
than shared blame. The sailboat, Coyote, is the vessel Mike Plant
disappeared from when the keel fell off. His fiancée inherited the
boat and chartered it to Dave Scully, who bumped it into a fishing
boat on a qualifying run. Scully was found 100% at fault, for
not having a lookout or proper lights.

http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html

What it boils down to is that if you hit something you didn't see, its
your fault. And when you start out by saying you do a scan every 15
minutes, that would be essentially admitting you didn't see something.

One curious thing is that many minor cases are really decided by
insurance companies. They will divide blame as they see fit, which
will affect the owners as far as the deductible payment. A friend was
in a simple port/starboard collision. They were on starboard, but
admitted they didn't see the other boat until it was too late. This
implied they didn't keep a proper lookout and thus were judged 24%
responsible by the insurance companies. The other boat had to pay 76%
of their deductible, they paid 24% of the other's. I assume they
figured that 48% of the issue was lookout, 52% was port/starboard.

If you want to consider something vague in the rules, think about the
way "Safe Speed" is defined, and how that applies to high speed
vessels in the fog.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Jeff" wrote
http://www.law.emory.edu/4circuit/dec97/961209.p.html
What it boils down to is that if you hit something you didn't see, its
your fault.

Especially if you do a hit and run while asleep at the wheel at 4:30 AM
without running lights.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 11, 6:18 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
Rule 5 comes under Part B, "Steering and Sailing Rules" meaning
rules
for vessels steering and sailing, in other words vessels underway.
Underway vessels do not include anchored vessels which, unless
they're dragging, they're not underway nor are they steering or
sailing.



I can not agree with you on this one Wilbur. tsmweb Tom has it right.
Please read the folloing rule. My take is that nobody can hide behind
a rule as defense against poor seamanship:

"...Rule 2 Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner,
master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply
with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid
immediate danger.

Rule 2
This is often referred to unofficially as the "Rule of Good
Seamanship" or the "General Prudential Rule." This Rule first states
that all the Rules must be complied with, and the customary practices
of good seamanship must be followed. But it then goes on to recognize
that there may be "special circumstances." Its intention is to apply
common sense to the interpretation and application of the Rules, and
to prevent any perversion of the Rules to avoid the consequences of
their misconstruction or misapplication. It recognizes that a
departure from the strict language of the Rules may be required to
avoid immediate danger - no vessel has the right of way through
another vessel! There may be special situations where a departure from
the Rules is not only desirable, but is required. Should a collision
result, strict literal compliance with the Rules may not be a
defense...."

not always by-the-book Bob



If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat is
your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would mean
when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It would mean
when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean when your boat
was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was on a tractor
trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean when your boat
was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your boat because the
rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied up
at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try to
obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point. Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 11, 3:43 pm, otnmbrd wrote:
" wrote groups.com:
....

OTNM, you raise good points, and I've made some sweeping statements
and moved freely between Skip's particular case and cases in general.
Also, I get the feeling we may be talking about different conditions.
My experience has largely been in international waters far offshore
and may not really apply to more typical near coastal conditions.
Anyway, with that in mind:

[] As nearly as I can make out fishing vessels
never keep any watch at all, but even commercial carriers are pretty
bad about watch keeping at sea.

Based on what first hand knowledge?

I read the incident reports in the backs of the trade mags. I also
have friends in the marine trades and merchant marine and friends who
make their living as fisheries observers and friends who are serious
small boat voyagers. They all tell tales. I've also worked for a US
shipping company, but in IT and all I can attest to from that is that
some ship's officers in US domestic trade spend a lot of time reading
and creating reports while at sea. For the last year or so I've been
working out of my pilot house and have had a VHF monitoring most of
bridge to bridge traffic in the Honolulu area and I'd guess that as
much as a third of all attempts to get passing agreements fail because
one party isn't keeping watch (the navy is particularly inept at
this). But that's all second hand. My first hand knowledge is in
small boats so I can't report on what is actually happening on the
bridges except when we pass close enough to see into them, but I can
report on what seems to be happening from the small boat operator's
point of view. I've spent a good deal of time offshore doing delivery
work, racing and six years of full time long distance cruising that
included three circuits of the pacific and it has become my custom to
hail most contacts on the VHF when offshore. My feeling from this
unscientific survey is that even of those vessels professional enough
to keep a radio watch few if any keep a continuous and careful visual
and radar watch when off soundings.
....
Leaving the RADAR on 24 miles is a
mistake.

Yes and no..... for ships, one set on 24, one on 12 with occasional
shifts down is great.... offshore for small boats, leave it on 12 ( you
should still see any closer targets if you know how to use the radar)
with occasional shifts down in reduced vis.

I agree that 12 is the best compromise for most small boats and small
radars offshore, but you should change scales regularly. It has been
years since I took my radar training and technology has improved but I
recall that continuous long range scanning was considered very bad
form (maybe even illegal in the context of watch keeping). Even if
the new digital sets have made this better it is still going to be
easier to see small, close targets on the closer scales at the very
least because they will be bigger blobs on the ppi.

....
[] Most targets will not show at 24 miles and closer targets
may be lost in the clutter. Also intermittent targets will only be
evident if you watch the ppi closely for several scans.

Again, yes and no.... depends on your system....etc.
....
[] In clear weather I've found that we almost
always make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

G Again, depends on your system

True. The context I was thinking of when I wrote those comments was
offshore using a small, unstabilized, analogue radar of the type
typically fitted to yachts.

-- Tom.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 11, 6:57 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:16:59 -0700, "

wrote:
....
[we] make visual contact on small targets before we see them on
RADAR.

If so, I'd argue that you need a better radar. ...

Yeah, there is better radar out there. For some reason I was thinking
about offshore work rather than coastal. Even with our nasty 4kw
Raymarine mono lcd set we can see tiny targets in glassy conditions.
Given a couple meters of swell little boats get lost in the clutter.
However, in good vis, particularly at night, we can see them or their
lights with our eyes when they are weak and intermittent targets on
the radar.

-- Tom.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
. 3.70...

Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
the n
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......

The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times. No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention. So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up and get caught. The rules are
there to make it easier not to screw up. If you have an accident, the
trick is not to put your foot in your mouth right away.

I think an anchored boat displaying the appropriate lights and/or day
shapes is probably not required to keep a lookout. Most of the cases
I've heard of where the anchored boat was assigned some of the blame
has been when they did not have appropriate anchor lights.

There are also required anchor watches of course, but I don't think
these come in the same category.

Now I do not think that - even offshore where Skip was (and I have
been there) that every 15 minutes is an appropriate amount of time to
keep watch. In our case, we don't do offshore more than 36 hours
(and we only do that much if something holds us up somewhere) because
I know that Bob won't sleep off watch and so I refuse to go. We can
just about manage that length of time, because I WILL sleep even if he
won't. He keeps threatening to go without me, but so far hasn't.

There was a local case here where a couple who had done several
circumnavigations were coming home to sell their boat and move back
ashore. They were in the Chesapeake sailing at night. (First
mistake). The man was on watch, and he saw something on the radar
that he didn't understand. He went below for some reason - to get
coffee or look at a chart - accounts differ. (Second mistake). The
boat ran between a tug and tow. Sank in less than 10 minutes and they
got into the dinghy in just what they were wearing. They were rescued
right away - the Calvert Co (which was their nearest shore) rescue
people picked them up VERY quickly considering that this was about 2
am and very dark - in less than 1/2 hour IIRC. But they lost
everything they owned.

Skip was going from Charleston to Beaufort. We've done the same
except we went in the Cape Fear River. If I were doing it today, I
would follow the route he did except I'd go in to Morehead City
because I have a feeling that the NC ICW has shoaled in a lot of
places. Beaufort and Charleston (and Cape Fear and Masonboro) are all
good inlets, and I've even gone out Little River. It's a good sail,
and there's not a LOT of traffic out there - not like off the coast of
FL from Miami to Ft. Pierce, where you have little unlighted fishing
boats and gambling boats and freighters etc.

The confusion factor (not understanding what you see) is the primary
problem. Initially, I thought that the star rising in the east was a
boat. (blush). And it also took me a long to figure out that the
lights that were rising from the shore were not a plane (and they
weren't stars because they were west of me) but were flares.

And whoever said that you had to learn to read the radar was right.
Bob works on that constantly.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 12, 2:06 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times.

Espeically when they dont know the responibilities of Lookout, dont
know the rules, and dont care to find out.


No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention.

No it is to prevnet crashes and dead bodies floating in the water.

So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up....

Granny, what can I say............ you said it yourself for all to
see. Im not going to commen on your statment.

Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Bob wrote:

On Aug 12, 2:06 pm, Rosalie B. wrote:

This is relevant only when there is an accident where blame has to be
affixed. Because really - even if you have someone in the cockpit or
beside the helm at all times whose sole duty is to be a lookout, no
one human is going to be 100% alert at all times.

Espeically when they dont know the responibilities of Lookout, dont
know the rules, and dont care to find out.


No one is going to
bother to write you up unless you do something that brings you to
their attention.

No it is to prevnet crashes and dead bodies floating in the water.

So you can break Rule 5 or any other rule as much as
you like, as long as you don't screw up....

Granny, what can I say............ you said it yourself for all to
see. Im not going to commen on your statment.

Bob

Well I said YOU - not ME

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change



]
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules. Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

All so typical...... Most anchored vessels are manned (exceptions
noted)....keep a lookout


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:46bf500c
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground, when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard. When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears
in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point. Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...

Don't be a total idiot all the time, Willy..... there's a big
difference
between most of what you say and a boat at anchor. Try to remember
Rule
2 and use some common sense for a change


Nothing wrong with a rule about applying common sense and caution when
navigating and being on notice that special circumstances may arise
where good judgment might be called for when no specific rule applies
but this has nothing to do with maintaining a lookout "at all times."

So, that's the crux of the matter. Anchoring does, indeed, come under
the auspices of navigation. When you're anchored you can be said to be
"in navigation."

But, anchoring is NOT considered steering or sailing. Since a lookout is
required at all times when steering and sailing (that's the section rule
5's under - not navigating), it follows rule 5 applies at all times
while steering and sailing. There's simply no way anchored boats can be
said to be steering or sailing. Can't you see the difference?

Wilbur Hubbard





"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:


If I used your and Jeff's flawed logic it would follow that your boat
is your prison. If you had to keep a lookout "at all times" it would
mean when your boat was on the hard getting the bottom painted. It
would mean when your boat was sitting on the trailer. It would mean
when your boat was in your back yard. It would mean when your boat
was
on a tractor trailer rig being hauled across country. It would mean
when your boat was tied up in the slip. You could never leave your
boat because the rule says "at all times."

See how stupid it gets? Nope, in spite of what you and Jeff try to
claim, Rule 5 appears only under the Steering and Sailing rules.
Hence
it only applies when steering and sailing. Anchored boats, boats tied
up at a dock, boats aground, are not steering and sailing. Don't try
to obfuscate by bring up a bunch of other rules. They don't apply in
a
discussion of what Rule 5 says.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...
All so typical...... Most anchored vessels are manned (exceptions
noted)....keep a lookout

It's just not possible for a single crewman on a small cruising yacht to
keep a lookout at all times when anchored. This would mean he can never
leave the boat. This would mean he could never sleep. This would mean he
could never use the head, cook a meal, change filters on the motor, etc.
There are many legitimate reasons for anchoring. Among these reasons are
the fact that you realize you are too tired to stay awake while you're
steering and sailing so you stop steering and sailing and drop the
anchor so you can get some much needed rest. Your too broad application
of rule 5 would force sailors to carry on until they fell asleep at the
wheel and caused a collision. See how, if extended logically, a case
cannot be made for what you are saying?

The only way you can be expected to be in compliance with Rule 5 is if
it's applied like it's written. You must keep a lookout at all times
"when steering and sailing."

When you're anchored you are NOT "steering and sailing." Just like
you're not steering and sailing when you're made fast to the pier.
NOBODY tries to say you must keep a lookout at all times when at the
dock. A few people are saying you must keep a lookout at all times when
anchored. They are WRONG! What's so hard to understand about that?

Wilbur Hubbard




"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
news:46bf500c
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...


Comon Wilbur, ..... read rule 4, first rule of Part B, then rule 5,
then
read rule 2, then go back to rule 5 "every vessel shall at ALL
times"
Gripes, it's so easy to blow holes in your comments.......


The discussion is about Rule 5. (keeping a lookout)

Rule 5 appears under the heading of Steering and Sailing Rules. That
means Rule 5 applies when steering and sailing. It does not mean it
applies when anchored, when tied to a dock or pier, when aground,
when
the boat's on the hard, when the boat's sitting in your back yard.
When
the boat's hauled out for a bottom paint job. Etc.

I'm arguing that anchored vessels don't require a lookout at all
times
because they aren't sailing or steering. Since "at all times" appears
in
a rule under the heading of Steering and Sailing it follows that a
lookout must be posted at all times while steering or sailing. Both
steering and sailing happen only when a vessel is underway. An
anchored
vessel is NOT underway.

Now, if you're going to argue a point, please stick to the point.
Don't
try changing the subject by presenting a bunch or other rules that
aren't germaine to the discussion at hand. Keep it simple, stupid.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Not all cruising yachts are single handing it...... not all situations
require someone on a constant 360deg swivel..... the rules where mainly
written for ships/larger vessels, so you have to adapt many to fit single
handed cruising yachts and do the best you can.
Saying that "steering and sailing" does not include at anchor so you
don't need to keep a watch, is a nice word argument that won't do you a
bit of good when the stuff hits the fan.....






"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:46c20af5
:


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70...
All so typical...... Most anchored vessels are manned (exceptions
noted)....keep a lookout

It's just not possible for a single crewman on a small cruising yacht
to
keep a lookout at all times when anchored. This would mean he can never
leave the boat. This would mean he could never sleep. This would mean
he
could never use the head, cook a meal, change filters on the motor,
etc.
There are many legitimate reasons for anchoring. Among these reasons
are
the fact that you realize you are too tired to stay awake while you're
steering and sailing so you stop steering and sailing and drop the
anchor so you can get some much needed rest. Your too broad application
of rule 5 would force sailors to carry on until they fell asleep at the
wheel and caused a collision. See how, if extended logically, a case
cannot be made for what you are saying?

The only way you can be expected to be in compliance with Rule 5 is if
it's applied like it's written. You must keep a lookout at all times
"when steering and sailing."

When you're anchored you are NOT "steering and sailing." Just like
you're not steering and sailing when you're made fast to the pier.
NOBODY tries to say you must keep a lookout at all times when at the
dock. A few people are saying you must keep a lookout at all times when
anchored. They are WRONG! What's so hard to understand about that?

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 14, 9:33 pm, otnmbrd wrote:

Saying that "steering and sailing" does not include at anchor so you
don't need to keep a watch, is a nice word argument that won't do you a
bit of good when the stuff hits the fan.....


Common sense............. :)

Now lets add this to the mix:

How is it possible to comply with the ColRegs when underway with no
lookout? Pretty simply answer actually. And maybe somthing that Skip
and Lydia should consider when underway.
Answer_________________________________.
Oh, and bonus points are availible!
Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 15, 8:19 am, wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:26:45 -0700, Bob wrote:
On Aug 14, 9:33 pm, otnmbrd wrote:

Saying that "steering and sailing" does not include at anchor so you
don't need to keep a watch, is a nice word argument that won't do you a
bit of good when the stuff hits the fan.....

Common sense............. :)

Now lets add this to the mix:

How is it possible to comply with the ColRegs when underway with no
lookout? Pretty simply answer actually. And maybe somthing that Skip
and Lydia should consider when underway.
Answer_________________________________.

answer: Don't hit anything!



Oh, and bonus points are availible!
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You left out don't get ran over.

Joe

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Come on. Somebody here has to know what to do when your making way and
dont have a lookout. The answer is listed in the ColRegs. SInce there
are so many experts here I though it would be a slam dunk.

making way + no lookout = "a vessel _____ ______ __________."

Bob

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 15, 6:44 pm, Bob wrote:
Come on. Somebody here has to know what to do when your making way and
dont have a lookout. The answer is listed in the ColRegs. SInce there
are so many experts here I though it would be a slam dunk.

making way + no lookout = "a vessel _____ ______ __________."

Bob

You mean "green over red the captain is dead?" Not a chance. I'd
suggest you look at 3 (f).

-- Tom.

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

Bob wrote:

Come on. Somebody here has to know what to do when your making way and
dont have a lookout. The answer is listed in the ColRegs. SInce there
are so many experts here I though it would be a slam dunk.

making way + no lookout = "a vessel _____ ______ __________."

Bob

Not Under Command?

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

On Aug 16, 12:36 am, " wrote:


You mean "green over red the captain is dead?" Not a chance. I'd
suggest you look at 3 (f).

-- Tom.

"... RULE 3 (f) The term "vessel not under command" means a
vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to
maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep
out of the way of another vessel...."

Heck I think that fits Skips lookout methods. Also I think its RED
over RED the captain is dead. But maybe wrong ;)

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 16, 12:36 am, " wrote:


You mean "green over red the captain is dead?" Not a chance. I'd
suggest you look at 3 (f).

-- Tom.

"... RULE 3 (f) The term "vessel not under command" means a
vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to
maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep
out of the way of another vessel...."

Heck I think that fits Skips lookout methods. Also I think its RED
over RED the captain is dead. But maybe wrong ;)


OK, let's get this right. Red over red is NUC. That means Not Under
Command. It also has nothing to do with no lookout or no captain. Not
under command has everything to do with an exceptional circumstance
whereby a vessel is unable to maneuver according to the rules.
Exceptional circumstance is usually meant as a mechanical or operational
breakdown or defect that renders a vessel unable to comply.

And it's red over green = sailing machine. White over red is pilot
ahead. (accept when it's Otn at the helm - he uses red over white over
red [RAM] because he's usually so drunk he's Restricted in his Ability
to Maneuver -yuk yuk!). Red over white is fishing tonite. Green over
white is trawling tonite.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...


Come on. Somebody here has to know what to do when your making way and
dont have a lookout. The answer is listed in the ColRegs. SInce there
are so many experts here I though it would be a slam dunk.

making way + no lookout = "a vessel _____ ______ __________."

Bob



It would be red over red (day, two balls in a vertical position), and you
would see red on green on the port and starboard and a white stern.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

SKIP Please Read USCG COLREGS
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 16, 12:36 am, " wrote:


You mean "green over red the captain is dead?" Not a chance. I'd
suggest you look at 3 (f).

-- Tom.

"... RULE 3 (f) The term "vessel not under command" means a
vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to
maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep
out of the way of another vessel...."

Heck I think that fits Skips lookout methods. Also I think its RED
over RED the captain is dead. But maybe wrong ;)



Personally, I think the only correct answer is "In Violation of COLREGS"