Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?

What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?

How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?

How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?

I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.

Gratefully,


--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619

Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?

What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?

How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?

How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?

I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.

Gratefully,


--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619

Just to comment on cabin arrangements in general:

From my experience as a boat owner and as a offshore crew, I would have to
say that you should have a bunk for every person who is off watch. And
settees don't count or any arrangement that prevents the settee from being
used by the crew members who are not in their bunks..

I can be chaotic in the main cabin when you have a large crew/family members
up and no place to hang out.

Not everyone is on watch or in their bunks so you need the settee available
for these crew memebers.

If you not racing then maybe you have too large a crew if your have to sleep
them on the settee.

Taylor your crew size to your absolute requirements and berthing
arrangement..

My last boat was a Cheoy Lee Clipper 33 and the settee converted to an upper
and lower berth. (I think this is what Rich called a Pulman version, I
called it the 'Bunk House' cabin plan.) With the bunks make up there was no
place for anyone to sit and with the upper folded down the settee was too
narrow to sit comfortably (backs were straight up and down, no arm rest).
The main reason I was unhappy with it for a live aboard.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Just to comment on cabin arrangements in general:

From my experience as a boat owner and as a offshore crew, I would have to
say that you should have a bunk for every person who is off watch. And
settees don't count or any arrangement that prevents the settee from being
used by the crew members who are not in their bunks..

I can be chaotic in the main cabin when you have a large crew/family members
up and no place to hang out.

Not everyone is on watch or in their bunks so you need the settee available
for these crew memebers.

If you not racing then maybe you have too large a crew if your have to sleep
them on the settee.

Taylor your crew size to your absolute requirements and berthing
arrangement..

My last boat was a Cheoy Lee Clipper 33 and the settee converted to an upper
and lower berth. (I think this is what Rich called a Pulman version, I
called it the 'Bunk House' cabin plan.) With the bunks make up there was no
place for anyone to sit and with the upper folded down the settee was too
narrow to sit comfortably (backs were straight up and down, no arm rest).
The main reason I was unhappy with it for a live aboard.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

In article , Courtney Thomas
wrote:


Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?
The Pulman version has relatively HUGE open-space throughout with
distances too great from hand-hold to hand-hold distance.... makes it
very difficult to move about inside during a heavy seaway because you
have to let go before you can grab onto something else. If you miss
grabbing the next hand-hold you can get hurt when in a heavy seaway.
In any of the other Tayana set-ups you probably have twice as many of
the available handholds you need for every possible position inside the
boat. When I first saw a Pullman version the lack of ready available
handholds made it a deal breaker. IMHO a pullman version makes a TY37
a "bay boat".

What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?
Vectran, then Spectra w/UV cover

How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?
remove the through bolt that sets the sprit to the stem ..... go in
with long dental pick type probe at the areas of laminate joints ...
searching for SOFT spots. Ditto where jib stay connects to bowsprit
(4 botls), where staysl boom connects (4 througholes) and the large
tranverse bolt that holds the sprit to the twin samson posts. Look
along the laminate joints near the butt end of the sprit if you see
separation of the glued joint or constant separation if you varnish,
etc. then push on the joint with working end of a blunt screwdriver; if
ther is rot underneath the screwdriver will sink into the rot.
The OEM lamination seems to be mahogany to teak via a polyester glue.
If the bowsprit is off the boat a good whack with a wooden hammer will
test for the strength of the glue bond (which seems to oxidize vs. the
teak surface. Fortunately you will be able to pry loose all the
laminations with a few whacks of thin chisel - the OEM 'glue' is that
weak. Then replane the surfaces, etch with acetone and reglue with
epoxy or recorcinol. Any rotted pieces can be replace with a straight
grain 'marine' wood of your choice - spruce, yellow pine, mahogany,
etc. Sealing should be done by expoxying in metal ferrules for all the
through-bolt bores... so that when the attachment bolt work loose the
wood is still sealed by the ferrule. Its important to carefully
balance the tension in the bobstay with the tension in the forestay
..... as when they are unequal either the top or the bottom of the sprit
will bend and work the olaminations loose. Right now Im calculating
how many 1/4" cross/ through bolts to be added just beneath the top and
bottom surfaces to prevent the laminate separation - between the stem
connection and the connection of the butt with the sampson posts. The
function of the cross through bolts will result in constant transverse
clamping pressure to equalize the tendancy for the sprit laminations to
open on the side that goes into tension when loaded ... and creates
'laughing laminate' joints = open joints that permit water to enter.

Most rot that ever saw on a TY37 bowsprit was near the through bolt
that connects the sprit to the samson posts. Usually you wont notice
the rot until you push quite hard onto the surface of the 'unknown
species of inferior asian mahogany' expecially where its glued to the
alternating teak boards. .


How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?
Unforturnately the Tayana is built in Taiwan where ancient British
Whitworth Imperial machine system is still used .... and metal
components are variable and 'strange' in chemical composition/strength.
I used a torque wrench applied to the chainplate nuts and applied 15
ft.lbs. of torque to test. Those that fail, usually fail at 5-10 ft.
lb. .... or virtually no torque at all!!!!!
Reason: a proper designed bolt system should NOT depend solely on the
material strengths of the fastner materials holding the assembly
together .... (or you could just use a clevis pin.) Threaded bolts
hold things together principly by the PRESSURE the bolt gives to the
mating parts. Its the resulting friction generated between the mating
surfaces by torquing up the bolts that should be holding the chainplate
to the hull and not the ultimate tensile strength of "just the bolt" in
a 'shear' situation. When I put in 5/16" high quality 316 stainless
steel replacment bolts, I torqued them to 25 ft. Lb.

My (safety) engineering design has belt, suspenders + velcro and
staples approach. and then in critical stress areas double or triple
the normal safety facrors, especially ANYTIME stainless steel is used (
a virtually totally worthless material for marine or cyclic load
applications). Go with high quality bronze (with certs.) any time you
can .... or the new ultra modern (read - very expensive) stainless
grades that can survive corrosion attack.

I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.

Some of the Barients have a phenolic/polymer top flange, are held onto
the drum spindle by a 'spring' that fits into a detent on the shaft.
You reach into the winch handle connection (center hole) and find a
'push button'.to release the drum from the spindle. When the spring
ages and looses strength it can no longer hold the drum to the spindle;
if the lead on the rope is such that its higher than the top of the
drum, those forces imparted will suddenly pull the drum right off the
spindle .... the drum will stay on the rope and like a yo-yo will fly
along the rope until it smacks something. If the winch has lots of
power/force due to high load the force can be quite high enough to hurt
someone when the drum flys off travels along the sheet/halyard ....and
if it hits someone - 8-10 stitches.


Gratefully,

In article , Courtney Thomas
wrote:


Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?
The Pulman version has relatively HUGE open-space throughout with
distances too great from hand-hold to hand-hold distance.... makes it
very difficult to move about inside during a heavy seaway because you
have to let go before you can grab onto something else. If you miss
grabbing the next hand-hold you can get hurt when in a heavy seaway.
In any of the other Tayana set-ups you probably have twice as many of
the available handholds you need for every possible position inside the
boat. When I first saw a Pullman version the lack of ready available
handholds made it a deal breaker. IMHO a pullman version makes a TY37
a "bay boat".

What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?
Vectran, then Spectra w/UV cover

How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?
remove the through bolt that sets the sprit to the stem ..... go in
with long dental pick type probe at the areas of laminate joints ...
searching for SOFT spots. Ditto where jib stay connects to bowsprit
(4 botls), where staysl boom connects (4 througholes) and the large
tranverse bolt that holds the sprit to the twin samson posts. Look
along the laminate joints near the butt end of the sprit if you see
separation of the glued joint or constant separation if you varnish,
etc. then push on the joint with working end of a blunt screwdriver; if
ther is rot underneath the screwdriver will sink into the rot.
The OEM lamination seems to be mahogany to teak via a polyester glue.
If the bowsprit is off the boat a good whack with a wooden hammer will
test for the strength of the glue bond (which seems to oxidize vs. the
teak surface. Fortunately you will be able to pry loose all the
laminations with a few whacks of thin chisel - the OEM 'glue' is that
weak. Then replane the surfaces, etch with acetone and reglue with
epoxy or recorcinol. Any rotted pieces can be replace with a straight
grain 'marine' wood of your choice - spruce, yellow pine, mahogany,
etc. Sealing should be done by expoxying in metal ferrules for all the
through-bolt bores... so that when the attachment bolt work loose the
wood is still sealed by the ferrule. Its important to carefully
balance the tension in the bobstay with the tension in the forestay
..... as when they are unequal either the top or the bottom of the sprit
will bend and work the olaminations loose. Right now Im calculating
how many 1/4" cross/ through bolts to be added just beneath the top and
bottom surfaces to prevent the laminate separation - between the stem
connection and the connection of the butt with the sampson posts. The
function of the cross through bolts will result in constant transverse
clamping pressure to equalize the tendancy for the sprit laminations to
open on the side that goes into tension when loaded ... and creates
'laughing laminate' joints = open joints that permit water to enter.

Most rot that ever saw on a TY37 bowsprit was near the through bolt
that connects the sprit to the samson posts. Usually you wont notice
the rot until you push quite hard onto the surface of the 'unknown
species of inferior asian mahogany' expecially where its glued to the
alternating teak boards. .


How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?
Unforturnately the Tayana is built in Taiwan where ancient British
Whitworth Imperial machine system is still used .... and metal
components are variable and 'strange' in chemical composition/strength.
I used a torque wrench applied to the chainplate nuts and applied 15
ft.lbs. of torque to test. Those that fail, usually fail at 5-10 ft.
lb. .... or virtually no torque at all!!!!!
Reason: a proper designed bolt system should NOT depend solely on the
material strengths of the fastner materials holding the assembly
together .... (or you could just use a clevis pin.) Threaded bolts
hold things together principly by the PRESSURE the bolt gives to the
mating parts. Its the resulting friction generated between the mating
surfaces by torquing up the bolts that should be holding the chainplate
to the hull and not the ultimate tensile strength of "just the bolt" in
a 'shear' situation. When I put in 5/16" high quality 316 stainless
steel replacment bolts, I torqued them to 25 ft. Lb.

My (safety) engineering design has belt, suspenders + velcro and
staples approach. and then in critical stress areas double or triple
the normal safety facrors, especially ANYTIME stainless steel is used (
a virtually totally worthless material for marine or cyclic load
applications). Go with high quality bronze (with certs.) any time you
can .... or the new ultra modern (read - very expensive) stainless
grades that can survive corrosion attack.

I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.

Some of the Barients have a phenolic/polymer top flange, are held onto
the drum spindle by a 'spring' that fits into a detent on the shaft.
You reach into the winch handle connection (center hole) and find a
'push button'.to release the drum from the spindle. When the spring
ages and looses strength it can no longer hold the drum to the spindle;
if the lead on the rope is such that its higher than the top of the
drum, those forces imparted will suddenly pull the drum right off the
spindle .... the drum will stay on the rope and like a yo-yo will fly
along the rope until it smacks something. If the winch has lots of
power/force due to high load the force can be quite high enough to hurt
someone when the drum flys off travels along the sheet/halyard ....and
if it hits someone - 8-10 stitches.


Gratefully,

Thanks so much !

Best regards,
Courtney

Rich Hampel wrote:
In article , Courtney Thomas
wrote:



Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?

The Pulman version has relatively HUGE open-space throughout with
distances too great from hand-hold to hand-hold distance.... makes it
very difficult to move about inside during a heavy seaway because you
have to let go before you can grab onto something else. If you miss
grabbing the next hand-hold you can get hurt when in a heavy seaway.
In any of the other Tayana set-ups you probably have twice as many of
the available handholds you need for every possible position inside the
boat. When I first saw a Pullman version the lack of ready available
handholds made it a deal breaker. IMHO a pullman version makes a TY37
a "bay boat".


What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?

Vectran, then Spectra w/UV cover


How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?

remove the through bolt that sets the sprit to the stem ..... go in
with long dental pick type probe at the areas of laminate joints ...
searching for SOFT spots. Ditto where jib stay connects to bowsprit
(4 botls), where staysl boom connects (4 througholes) and the large
tranverse bolt that holds the sprit to the twin samson posts. Look
along the laminate joints near the butt end of the sprit if you see
separation of the glued joint or constant separation if you varnish,
etc. then push on the joint with working end of a blunt screwdriver; if
ther is rot underneath the screwdriver will sink into the rot.
The OEM lamination seems to be mahogany to teak via a polyester glue.
If the bowsprit is off the boat a good whack with a wooden hammer will
test for the strength of the glue bond (which seems to oxidize vs. the
teak surface. Fortunately you will be able to pry loose all the
laminations with a few whacks of thin chisel - the OEM 'glue' is that
weak. Then replane the surfaces, etch with acetone and reglue with
epoxy or recorcinol. Any rotted pieces can be replace with a straight
grain 'marine' wood of your choice - spruce, yellow pine, mahogany,
etc. Sealing should be done by expoxying in metal ferrules for all the
through-bolt bores... so that when the attachment bolt work loose the
wood is still sealed by the ferrule. Its important to carefully
balance the tension in the bobstay with the tension in the forestay
.... as when they are unequal either the top or the bottom of the sprit
will bend and work the olaminations loose. Right now Im calculating
how many 1/4" cross/ through bolts to be added just beneath the top and
bottom surfaces to prevent the laminate separation - between the stem
connection and the connection of the butt with the sampson posts. The
function of the cross through bolts will result in constant transverse
clamping pressure to equalize the tendancy for the sprit laminations to
open on the side that goes into tension when loaded ... and creates
'laughing laminate' joints = open joints that permit water to enter.

Most rot that ever saw on a TY37 bowsprit was near the through bolt
that connects the sprit to the samson posts. Usually you wont notice
the rot until you push quite hard onto the surface of the 'unknown
species of inferior asian mahogany' expecially where its glued to the
alternating teak boards. .



How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?

Unforturnately the Tayana is built in Taiwan where ancient British
Whitworth Imperial machine system is still used .... and metal
components are variable and 'strange' in chemical composition/strength.
I used a torque wrench applied to the chainplate nuts and applied 15
ft.lbs. of torque to test. Those that fail, usually fail at 5-10 ft.
lb. .... or virtually no torque at all!!!!!
Reason: a proper designed bolt system should NOT depend solely on the
material strengths of the fastner materials holding the assembly
together .... (or you could just use a clevis pin.) Threaded bolts
hold things together principly by the PRESSURE the bolt gives to the
mating parts. Its the resulting friction generated between the mating
surfaces by torquing up the bolts that should be holding the chainplate
to the hull and not the ultimate tensile strength of "just the bolt" in
a 'shear' situation. When I put in 5/16" high quality 316 stainless
steel replacment bolts, I torqued them to 25 ft. Lb.

My (safety) engineering design has belt, suspenders + velcro and
staples approach. and then in critical stress areas double or triple
the normal safety facrors, especially ANYTIME stainless steel is used (
a virtually totally worthless material for marine or cyclic load
applications). Go with high quality bronze (with certs.) any time you
can .... or the new ultra modern (read - very expensive) stainless
grades that can survive corrosion attack.


I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.


Some of the Barients have a phenolic/polymer top flange, are held onto
the drum spindle by a 'spring' that fits into a detent on the shaft.
You reach into the winch handle connection (center hole) and find a
'push button'.to release the drum from the spindle. When the spring
ages and looses strength it can no longer hold the drum to the spindle;
if the lead on the rope is such that its higher than the top of the
drum, those forces imparted will suddenly pull the drum right off the
spindle .... the drum will stay on the rope and like a yo-yo will fly
along the rope until it smacks something. If the winch has lots of
power/force due to high load the force can be quite high enough to hurt
someone when the drum flys off travels along the sheet/halyard ....and
if it hits someone - 8-10 stitches.



Gratefully,

Thanks so much !

Best regards,
Courtney

Rich Hampel wrote:
In article , Courtney Thomas
wrote:



Rich,

Just read your newsgroup post and would very much appreciate a response
to several concerns that you addressed in that post.

Why do you say avoid pulman version if planning passage making ?

The Pulman version has relatively HUGE open-space throughout with
distances too great from hand-hold to hand-hold distance.... makes it
very difficult to move about inside during a heavy seaway because you
have to let go before you can grab onto something else. If you miss
grabbing the next hand-hold you can get hurt when in a heavy seaway.
In any of the other Tayana set-ups you probably have twice as many of
the available handholds you need for every possible position inside the
boat. When I first saw a Pullman version the lack of ready available
handholds made it a deal breaker. IMHO a pullman version makes a TY37
a "bay boat".


What polymer do you recommend for running backstays ?

Vectran, then Spectra w/UV cover


How do you recommend testing and sealing bowsprit ?

remove the through bolt that sets the sprit to the stem ..... go in
with long dental pick type probe at the areas of laminate joints ...
searching for SOFT spots. Ditto where jib stay connects to bowsprit
(4 botls), where staysl boom connects (4 througholes) and the large
tranverse bolt that holds the sprit to the twin samson posts. Look
along the laminate joints near the butt end of the sprit if you see
separation of the glued joint or constant separation if you varnish,
etc. then push on the joint with working end of a blunt screwdriver; if
ther is rot underneath the screwdriver will sink into the rot.
The OEM lamination seems to be mahogany to teak via a polyester glue.
If the bowsprit is off the boat a good whack with a wooden hammer will
test for the strength of the glue bond (which seems to oxidize vs. the
teak surface. Fortunately you will be able to pry loose all the
laminations with a few whacks of thin chisel - the OEM 'glue' is that
weak. Then replane the surfaces, etch with acetone and reglue with
epoxy or recorcinol. Any rotted pieces can be replace with a straight
grain 'marine' wood of your choice - spruce, yellow pine, mahogany,
etc. Sealing should be done by expoxying in metal ferrules for all the
through-bolt bores... so that when the attachment bolt work loose the
wood is still sealed by the ferrule. Its important to carefully
balance the tension in the bobstay with the tension in the forestay
.... as when they are unequal either the top or the bottom of the sprit
will bend and work the olaminations loose. Right now Im calculating
how many 1/4" cross/ through bolts to be added just beneath the top and
bottom surfaces to prevent the laminate separation - between the stem
connection and the connection of the butt with the sampson posts. The
function of the cross through bolts will result in constant transverse
clamping pressure to equalize the tendancy for the sprit laminations to
open on the side that goes into tension when loaded ... and creates
'laughing laminate' joints = open joints that permit water to enter.

Most rot that ever saw on a TY37 bowsprit was near the through bolt
that connects the sprit to the samson posts. Usually you wont notice
the rot until you push quite hard onto the surface of the 'unknown
species of inferior asian mahogany' expecially where its glued to the
alternating teak boards. .



How does one torque test the chain plate bolts ?

Unforturnately the Tayana is built in Taiwan where ancient British
Whitworth Imperial machine system is still used .... and metal
components are variable and 'strange' in chemical composition/strength.
I used a torque wrench applied to the chainplate nuts and applied 15
ft.lbs. of torque to test. Those that fail, usually fail at 5-10 ft.
lb. .... or virtually no torque at all!!!!!
Reason: a proper designed bolt system should NOT depend solely on the
material strengths of the fastner materials holding the assembly
together .... (or you could just use a clevis pin.) Threaded bolts
hold things together principly by the PRESSURE the bolt gives to the
mating parts. Its the resulting friction generated between the mating
surfaces by torquing up the bolts that should be holding the chainplate
to the hull and not the ultimate tensile strength of "just the bolt" in
a 'shear' situation. When I put in 5/16" high quality 316 stainless
steel replacment bolts, I torqued them to 25 ft. Lb.

My (safety) engineering design has belt, suspenders + velcro and
staples approach. and then in critical stress areas double or triple
the normal safety facrors, especially ANYTIME stainless steel is used (
a virtually totally worthless material for marine or cyclic load
applications). Go with high quality bronze (with certs.) any time you
can .... or the new ultra modern (read - very expensive) stainless
grades that can survive corrosion attack.


I have Barient ST mains but don't know if they are the type against
which you caution. Comment please.


Some of the Barients have a phenolic/polymer top flange, are held onto
the drum spindle by a 'spring' that fits into a detent on the shaft.
You reach into the winch handle connection (center hole) and find a
'push button'.to release the drum from the spindle. When the spring
ages and looses strength it can no longer hold the drum to the spindle;
if the lead on the rope is such that its higher than the top of the
drum, those forces imparted will suddenly pull the drum right off the
spindle .... the drum will stay on the rope and like a yo-yo will fly
along the rope until it smacks something. If the winch has lots of
power/force due to high load the force can be quite high enough to hurt
someone when the drum flys off travels along the sheet/halyard ....and
if it hits someone - 8-10 stitches.



Gratefully,