My slip neighbor arrived in his 41 foot sailboat and said he would have been
there earlier but he had a bitch of a time getting his engine (diesel)
going. I asked what he does for winterization and he said he drains all the
fuel and puts in new filters. He spent a good part of a day bleeding and
trying to get the fuel system primed.

I just change the oil, run anti-freeze through the raw water system, and
shut down. Two years in a row, the engine has lit off in the spring just as
quickly as if it were all warmed up in the middle of a short summer daysail.

The fuel system was full of jelly when the boat arrived two years ago after
a six year layup with fuel in it. I had everything cleaned out and the fuel
tank polished. The settlement bowl on the primary filter is crystal clear
(well, ruby red) and I've put only 70 - 100 gallons in the 15 gallon tank.
Since that would be just a couple days running on a power boat, I don't see
anything to be gained by a filter change at this point. My neighbor's
experience seems to bear this out.

I'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some problem
fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that flows through
the filter and not an automatic once a year thing. I'd like to know what
experience other sailboat owners have had, recognizing that hotter climates
and fuel from funkier places than Portland, Maine might dictate more
frequent changes.

--

Roger Long

* Roger Long wrote, On 6/1/2007 7:52 PM:
....
I'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some problem
fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that flows through
the filter and not an automatic once a year thing. I'd like to know what
experience other sailboat owners have had, recognizing that hotter climates
and fuel from funkier places than Portland, Maine might dictate more
frequent changes.


I have to agree - I've seen more problems from changing fuel filters
than from not changing. I do have Racors in addition to the normal
Yanmar filters, so there's little reason to have dirty fuel, and the
clear bowl lets me see any water or crud, though I don't remember
seeing any in years.

Bleeding shouldn't be an all day task in any case. Last year my
system was drained because I put in a new fuel tank; priming both
engines might have taken 40 minutes. If you friend really wants to
drain the system, and then has a problem bleeding, he should have an
electric pump to facilitate.

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some
problem fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that
flows through the filter and not an automatic once a year thing.

You've failed to mention the MOST important function in good fuel
management.....refilling the tanks.

Didja ever notice what all the light plane pilots do, religiously, when
they return to the airport, but before putting the plane in the hangar?
They visit the fuel dock and REFUEL....even if it only takes 3 gallons.
Why??

A fuel tank not full to the filler neck "breathes". At night, when it
cools, it breathes in that water-soaked evening air that wets everything
with dew...including the inside walls of a half-empty fuel tank. As the
condensation continues in the night, the water forms into droplets too
heavy to stick to the tank and slide down the walls. As the water is
heavier than the fuel, gas or diesel, it slides down UNDER the fuel,
making a layer of water that increases every daily cycle....well, until
either the black algae that grows in the dark in the layer between the
fuel (food) and the water (water)...gets sucked up to clog the fuel
filters or injection system.

When the sun rises, the half-empty fuel tank on every sailboat in your
marina pressurizes and blows out the air inside it so that it can suck in
that next load of wet night air, tomorrow night. Gas powered boats do
even better! They blow out the light aromatic elements in gasoline that
give gas its octane rating....eventually turning the light gas into heavy
shellac...that brown lookin' "bad gas" everyone tells you about.

And all you have to do to stop it dead in its tracks is to take the time
to stop at the damned fuel dock and top off the tanks before heading to
your slip......even if it only takes a gallon. Full fuel tanks NEVER
have "water in them".....in the hangar at the airport.

Larry
--
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

Roger Long wrote:


I'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some problem
fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that flows through
the filter and not an automatic once a year thing. I'd like to know what
experience other sailboat owners have had, recognizing that hotter climates
and fuel from funkier places than Portland, Maine might dictate more
frequent changes.


Close, but no cigar, Roger.

It's not the passage of time or the
volume of fuel that passes through the
filter, but the amount of clogging the
filter experiences as it does its job
and filters out whatever is in the fuel.
Not always evident from a visual peek at
the filter.

The technically correct strategy is to
place a simple, cheap (~$10) vacuum gage
in the fuel line. The more clogged the
filter, the greater the vacuum created
as the pump tries to move fuel through
the filter.

The gage will tell you when its time to
change the filter(s) (well, if you have
multiple filters, it won't tell you
which one(s) unless you use multiple
gages, which is a move away from KISS).
So just assume if the gage says clogged,
you should change them all. How often do
we want to smell up the boat, anyway?

Here's an example from the automotive
diesel field:

http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/jkfuelpressure.htm
TheDieselPage.com - Kennedy Diesel Fuel
Pressure Gauge - Product Review

And here's a BoatUS link:

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/33.htm
Fuel System Maintenance by Don Casey

All toward having clean fun!

Chuck



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Larry wrote:

Didja ever notice what all the light plane pilots do, religiously,
when they return to the airport, but before putting the plane in the
hangar? They visit the fuel dock and REFUEL....even if it only takes
3 gallons. Why??

I agree with you about boats sitting there in the water. However, during my
previous life as an aircraft maintenance officer I concluded, along with a
lot of other people, that filling aircraft fuel tanks wasn't necessary. We
draw fuel out of the sumps before every flight and I never saw water after
instituting a policy on not filling unless the taniks were below 3/4. There
are some aircraft fuel tanks, the ones with the rubber bladders that
insulate, and the "wet wings" where the situation may be different. Never
saw a problem though with the 172 with aluminum tanks inside aluminum wings.

I wouldn't refill my boat tanks after every trip because of this issue but
agree that it is vital for a long down time or winter layup.

--
Roger Long

Chuck wrote:
Roger Long wrote:

The technically correct strategy is to
place a simple, cheap (~$10) vacuum gage
in the fuel line.

Agreed. A gauge has been on my list of upgrades but I'm going to wait until
the first filter replacement to do it when the fuel system is opened up
anyway. I figure next winter is about time to do this.

Incidentally, I have an electric fuel pump. When I accidentally bumped the
fuel shut off, I learned that it makes a racket when pumping hard.
Listening to it on every start up should also be a clue to developing filter
problems.

--
Roger Long

On Jun 1, 6:52 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:


I'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some problem
fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that flows through
the filter and not an automatic once a year thing. I'd like to know what
experience other sailboat owners have had, recognizing that hotter climates
and fuel from funkier places than Portland, Maine might dictate more
frequent changes.

--

Roger Long

I think you are right Roger, except some filters degrade over a long
time just sitting in fuel, but your slip neighbor claimed he drained
the fuel system. I have an inline vacuum gauge that tells me when to
change the filter.

Joe

Not so !!!!!!!!!!!!

The filter media of fuel filters is a mixture of cellulosic fibers and
a 'wet-strength' resin. Although the 'aim' of the technical resinated
paper manufacturer is to have the resin coat all the fiber surface
inevitably there will be some fiber sites that are not resinated.

Here comes the 'important' part: Cellulose decomposes in the presence
of water over the long term ... think of how toilet paper (a cellulosic
papear) falls apart a short time after 'wetting'.
Sooooooooo, if you are using the typical resinated papaer filter
elements (Racor, etc.) AND you have noticed free water in the sump of
your filter .... then increase your normal changeout schedule OR keep a
record of the differential operating pressure of the filter at near
engine wide-open-throttle (WOT) ---- as a filter that is 'breaking
through or has cellulose that is now softening/digesting will show a
REDUCED pressure differential as previous under you 'reference' engine
rpm.

Secondly, such filters are pleated, the diaphragm pump is a 'pulse
type' pump and the pleates in the filter 'flex'. Under long term
flexing of the pleats, the media will break and the filter will
'unload' its retentate down stream ..... ; thus, keep an eye on the
pressure gages and change out frequently if you notice a non-linear
increase in differential pressure in the filter immediately down
stream. Simple recommendation ... if you use the engine a lot consider
changing every 100 or so hours of operation with respect to pleat
breakage by flexure; or, keep a damn good eye on the filter gages.

:-)


I'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some problem
fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that flows through
the filter and not an automatic once a year thing. I'd like to know what
experience other sailboat owners have had, recognizing that hotter climates
and fuel from funkier places than Portland, Maine might dictate more
frequent changes.

--

Roger Long

Sorry but thats entirely WRONG.....

Fuel picks up or absorbs water because its DRY when its made; the heat
of distallation/cracking drives all the water out of the hydrocarbon
mix.
IN a tank thats vented to atmosphere, chemical equilibrium will drive
water vapor INTO the fuel through the vent until the fuel is fully
saturated with water. The tank does not 'breathe', the oil does not
'breathe', etc. Water vapor keeps on absorbing INTO the fuel until
its saturated to an equilibirum condition of saturation.
If you have water condensation on the walls of the tank it means that
the oil is already fully or nearly saturated with water vapor. Has
NOTHING to do if the tand is full, 1/2 full, etc. Empty tanks do not
gain water .... ask yourself why?

The ONLY way to keep water out of a fuel tank that is vented to
atmosphere is put a water adsorbing desiccant breather filter on the
vent line .... or if the the tank is rated for full vacuum (no boat
or aircraft tanks ever are) simply CLOSE the VENT line VALVE when not
operating.

:-)

In article , Larry
wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

'm thinking that filter changes, in the absence of picking up some
problem fuel, should be a function of the total amount of fuel that
flows through the filter and not an automatic once a year thing.

You've failed to mention the MOST important function in good fuel
management.....refilling the tanks.

Didja ever notice what all the light plane pilots do, religiously, when
they return to the airport, but before putting the plane in the hangar?
They visit the fuel dock and REFUEL....even if it only takes 3 gallons.
Why??

A fuel tank not full to the filler neck "breathes". At night, when it
cools, it breathes in that water-soaked evening air that wets everything
with dew...including the inside walls of a half-empty fuel tank. As the
condensation continues in the night, the water forms into droplets too
heavy to stick to the tank and slide down the walls. As the water is
heavier than the fuel, gas or diesel, it slides down UNDER the fuel,
making a layer of water that increases every daily cycle....well, until
either the black algae that grows in the dark in the layer between the
fuel (food) and the water (water)...gets sucked up to clog the fuel
filters or injection system.

When the sun rises, the half-empty fuel tank on every sailboat in your
marina pressurizes and blows out the air inside it so that it can suck in
that next load of wet night air, tomorrow night. Gas powered boats do
even better! They blow out the light aromatic elements in gasoline that
give gas its octane rating....eventually turning the light gas into heavy
shellac...that brown lookin' "bad gas" everyone tells you about.

And all you have to do to stop it dead in its tracks is to take the time
to stop at the damned fuel dock and top off the tanks before heading to
your slip......even if it only takes a gallon. Full fuel tanks NEVER
have "water in them".....in the hangar at the airport.

Larry

Rich Hampel wrote in news:030620071736213514%RhmpL33
@nospam.net:

the media will break and the filter will
'unload' its retentate down stream .

Sounds expensive!....(c;

Larry
--
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?