On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.

Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Mon, 21 May 2007 06:44:30 -0500, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

That assumes you always run at full power and can take advantage of
the heat, and further assumes zero fuel and maintenance costs.

I rest my case.

* Brian Whatcott wrote, On 5/21/2007 7:44 AM:
On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.
Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)

There are some obvious problems with this type of analysis - mainly,
the genset is probably happy to deliver at one rate, but the typical
user's rate will vary considerably. And how does the heat factor in?
How much heat can a genset gen? Or are you thinking of reverse
cycle A/C?

On Mon, 21 May 2007 09:10:35 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Brian Whatcott wrote, On 5/21/2007 7:44 AM:
On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.
Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)

There are some obvious problems with this type of analysis - mainly,
the genset is probably happy to deliver at one rate, but the typical
user's rate will vary considerably. And how does the heat factor in?
How much heat can a genset gen? Or are you thinking of reverse
cycle A/C?


If you want a genset to deliver rated power, you can sell to the
utility at their price. Diesels run up to 40% thermal efficiency.
That means that 60% of the thermal energy potential of the fuel goes
into the air. You don't want to extract too much from the exhaust
stack for various reasons, but the warmth of the cooling air is a
freebee.
This is "Combined heat and power" as a newish application already
in use.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Brian Whatcott wrote in
:

You don't want to extract too much from the exhaust
stack for various reasons, but the warmth of the cooling air is a
freebee.


In the winter (not much winter as I live in SC) I run my little Honda
EU1000i suitcase genset INSIDE the stepvan to power and heat it. I
welded a pipe nipple to the tiny little exhaust pipe sticking out of it
and put a right angle fitting to convert it to 1/2" metal natural gas
line, the flex they use to connect natural gas appliances to fixed piping
safely. The line is nicely ribbed, making a very nice heat sink to
radiate exhaust heat in a little coil against the back door of the van.
This pipe goes through a hole in the van's deck and out about 6"
underneath. By the time the exhaust gets outside, you can hold the pipe
in your hand and the gas coming out of it is barely warm.....recovering
100% of the waste heat from the gas engine INSIDE the cold, leaky van
shop. It's a little noisy but I don't care. In Winter I can power and
heat the truck for about a gallon of gas for all 8 hours at work. The
genset is behind a cabinet and I glued foam around its position to form a
sort of sound cabinet out of the fixed cabinets and truck body. Plenty
of air inlet and outlet to move the heat into the space....(c;

I can't do this with the EU3000is as the exhaust outlet is buried into
the airstream of the cooling air inside the quiet cabinet. The new
diesel genset is easy with its external exhaust "stack" sticking up out
of it. You could even use some A/C ductwork to duct its heat into a
living space while venting the exhaust outside separately.

Hmm....I could plumb the cooling air outlet into the floor heat ductwork
of the hovel in winter....recovering heat and not loading the electric
plant...(c; That would increase my efficiency markedly, making the house
toasty warm in the process. I've already got CO gas detectors in here.

Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

Jeff wrote in
:

If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)


OUCH! Californicate?

Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

* Larry wrote, On 5/21/2007 2:09 PM:
Jeff wrote in
:

If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)


OUCH! Californicate?

Larry

Boston

Jeff wrote in news:R_
:

Boston




Ah, Taxachussettes. I can understand why, now.

The rate reflects all those taxes paid by the company and all their
employees...It adds up quite fast.

Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

* Larry wrote, On 5/21/2007 10:46 PM:
Jeff wrote in news:R_
Boston



Ah, Taxachussettes. I can understand why, now.

The rate reflects all those taxes paid by the company and all their
employees...It adds up quite fast.

Larry

Yet another person who believes the myth. The Massachusetts tax burden
is lower than most states, about the same as SC. Also, our gasoline
taxes are lower than the national average, and the gas prices are lower.

It turns out that electric prices are particularly expensive, almost
double the national average, in all of the NE states.

Jeff wrote in
:

and the gas prices are lower.


I saw $2.96/gallon today. That low in Boston?

This is in Charleston, SC. Most stations are just over the $3 mark.

Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.