On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.

Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even
point, spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at
the outset.

Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.



Do you think it's only going to last 62.5 days?! 1500/24 hours per day =
62.5 days! Maybe we should be more optimistic and add a zero to make it
15,000 hours. That's still only 1.7 years....

Now, using that figure instead of a two month life span, that puts it at
..10/hour for 5.2KW of power. Let's say a half load, 3Kwh for 10 cents
(free fuel but I'd have to add in some maintenance, oil changes, filter
changes, etc. so it's not accurate). That's only 3.33c/Kwh, 1/3 what
South Carolina Electric and Gouge charges, right? It gets cheaper as
load increases and less as load decreases, par value about 1000W of
load....

The numbers look different at 15,000 hours....not an unheard of diesel
runtime if you change the oil every 100 hours like you're supposed to and
service the air filter and oil strainer per the book. This little diesel
probably won't run that long, but I'm not sure. There's at LEAST 4000
hours on my Honda EU3000is gas genset on an air-cooled gas engine of no
particular great note....It still starts instantly, when called for. I
run it a lot all summer and in winter loaded with a 1500 watt electric
heater to keep my feet warm at work. I've never even changed its spark
plug! The spare is in a drawer in the truck.

Larry
--
Metallurgy has come a long way in the last 20 years.....

On Mon, 21 May 2007 03:21:06 +0000, Larry wrote:

The numbers look different at 15,000 hours

That's *not* going to happen with a 3600 RPM air cooled diesel. I'll
be surprised if it makes 1500 hours at half load, even if you change
the oil every day.

On May 21, 11:40 am, Wayne.B wrote:

That's *not* going to happen with a 3600 RPM air cooled diesel. I'll be surprised if it makes 1500 hours at half load, even if you change the oil every day.

I thought contemporary wisdom was that frequent, such as daily, oil
changes were a BAD thing with modern lubricating oils?

Modern oils with zinc and phosphorus additives require a certain
minimum amount of operating engine time to reach the lability point of
the organometal additives. The chelated zinc and phosophorus additives
are designed to be labile, so the ligand molecule will surrender its
metal load into a micro-void on the surface of a stressed engine part
(eg a bearing surface) when the ligand molecule has been stressed by a
heat/pressure event. The surrendered zinc, phosphorus or whatever
additive, by its deformation (because it's softer than the steel
bearing surface), is what protects the bearing surface.

Changing the oil too frequently prevents the additives doing what they
were designed to do. Of course, changing the oil frequently boosts oil
corporation profits. And if you're holding stock in Big Oil, that's
not a bad thing either.

Bil wrote in news:1179801332.742087.12070
@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

Changing the oil too frequently prevents the additives doing what they
were designed to do. Of course, changing the oil frequently boosts oil
corporation profits. And if you're holding stock in Big Oil, that's
not a bad thing either.



What you say is true of a gasoline engine. But, in any diesel situation,
the big oil destroyer is carbon from all the blowby of the insanely
pressurized combustion caused by the 22:1 compression ratio and that
knocking explosion blowing it by even good rings.

The oil turns to carbon in a short time. Just pull the dipstick after an
hour of runtime and wipe it on your best shirt. It'll remind you to
change it OFTEN....not wait for amazing modern additives, now embedded in
lamp black, to coat the bearings. They can't even SEE the bearings!...
(c;

Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

On Mon, 21 May 2007 03:21:06 +0000, Larry wrote:

There's at LEAST 4000
hours on my Honda EU3000is gas genset on an air-cooled gas engine

That's different. The EU3000i uses a variable speed engine if my
memory is correct so it's not always running flat out at 3600.

On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.

Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

On Mon, 21 May 2007 06:44:30 -0500, Brian Whatcott
wrote:

Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

That assumes you always run at full power and can take advantage of
the heat, and further assumes zero fuel and maintenance costs.

I rest my case.

* Brian Whatcott wrote, On 5/21/2007 7:44 AM:
On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.
Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)

There are some obvious problems with this type of analysis - mainly,
the genset is probably happy to deliver at one rate, but the typical
user's rate will vary considerably. And how does the heat factor in?
How much heat can a genset gen? Or are you thinking of reverse
cycle A/C?

On Mon, 21 May 2007 09:10:35 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Brian Whatcott wrote, On 5/21/2007 7:44 AM:
On Sun, 20 May 2007 22:44:01 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 20 May 2007 05:51:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

at $1500, approximately 1/4 the cost of the usual diesel
genset in this class, you can replace it 4 times to the break-even point,
spreading out your operating cost over many years, not at at the outset.
Here's my take on the numbers.

Let's assume a 1500 hour life which may be optimistic. That means you
are paying $1 per hour for equipment amortization which is more than
20 cents per kwh even if all your fuel is free. Fuel at current
prices would add another 20 or 30 cents.

Generating your own electricity is not cost effective if you can buy
it for 10 cents per kwh.


Let's take another shot at this one.
$1500 for 6kW of electrical power for 1500 hours
AND
6kW PLUS of heating over 1500 hrs
represents a combined heat and power capital cost of
8.3 cents per kWhr
Hence:
Generating your own power and heat can be cost-effective
if you buy power for 10cents/kW.hr

Brian Whatcott Altus OK


If you can get electricity at $0.10/kWh, send some to me. I'll pay
you $0.12! (Our current cost is $0.186.)

There are some obvious problems with this type of analysis - mainly,
the genset is probably happy to deliver at one rate, but the typical
user's rate will vary considerably. And how does the heat factor in?
How much heat can a genset gen? Or are you thinking of reverse
cycle A/C?


If you want a genset to deliver rated power, you can sell to the
utility at their price. Diesels run up to 40% thermal efficiency.
That means that 60% of the thermal energy potential of the fuel goes
into the air. You don't want to extract too much from the exhaust
stack for various reasons, but the warmth of the cooling air is a
freebee.
This is "Combined heat and power" as a newish application already
in use.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK