On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:21:28 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM:

The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.

I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to
pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if
proper care was not taken.

Pitchpoling doesn't require a huge wave according to:
http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm
" In the ocean with storm conditions you must slow the boat down. If
you don’t, the boat will surf faster than the wave system and
literally plunge into a wave front, tripping the boat and causing it
to flip over-not capsize. In storm waves, a prudent skipper, on
cruising cat where safety rather than speed is the priority, will
reduce sail and, if necessary, employ a drogue."

If so, that puts a different light on it.

Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW,
"plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat.
I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight
through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that
you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum.

I was thinking the boat could have been under too much sail.

The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35'
I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and
weather circumstance of the incident.
Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the
boat capsized.

Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I
presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did
not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any
serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its
hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit
by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible.

Yes. Just don't know. BTW, the cat is a 1995. Mistyped it.
http://www.boatinfoworld.com/boat/re...o-colorado.asp

The bayacht guy seems to know catamarans well and looks very dimly
on fiberglass foredecks, and that may (or may not) have been a factor
in this case.

--Vic

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 6:07 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:21:28 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM:

The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.
I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to
pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if
proper care was not taken.

Pitchpoling doesn't require a huge wave according to:
http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm
" In the ocean with storm conditions you must slow the boat down. If
you don’t, the boat will surf faster than the wave system and
literally plunge into a wave front, tripping the boat and causing it
to flip over-not capsize. In storm waves, a prudent skipper, on
cruising cat where safety rather than speed is the priority, will
reduce sail and, if necessary, employ a drogue."

I can say from experience that 10 foot waves are generally not enough
to create these situations. They are talking about large ocean
swells, of the type generated by large storms, with a long fetch.
They may have the cause of the capsize in the Pacific NW a few months
ago, but likely not the primary cause of this incident. Though I
could be wrong.


If so, that puts a different light on it.
Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW,
"plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat.
I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight
through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that
you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum.

I was thinking the boat could have been under too much sail.

Indeed, that would be my guess. However, unless they had gear
failure, it should have been possible to reduce sail. This is why I
suspect a more sudden event, perhaps being hit by a squall while no
one is at the helm.



The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35'
I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and
weather circumstance of the incident.
Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the
boat capsized.
Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I
presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did
not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any
serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its
hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit
by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible.

Yes. Just don't know. BTW, the cat is a 1995. Mistyped it.
http://www.boatinfoworld.com/boat/re...o-colorado.asp

The bayacht guy seems to know catamarans well and looks very dimly
on fiberglass foredecks, and that may (or may not) have been a factor
in this case.

I always thought they increased hobby-horsing or pitching. However,
there are a number of factors involved, so its not as simple as saying
solid deck cats pitch too much.

BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as
the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout
essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls,
which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety
record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other
brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a
very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides
enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were
not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago
35'. Everyone has an agenda.

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:50:40 -0400, Jeff wrote:


BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as
the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout
essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls,
which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety
record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other
brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a
very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides
enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were
not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago
35'. Everyone has an agenda.

Yes, it's difficult to cut through agendas.
Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to
those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside
down would be a useful fact.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:50:40 -0400, Jeff wrote:


BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as
the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout
essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls,
which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety
record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other
brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a
very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides
enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were
not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago
35'. Everyone has an agenda.

Yes, it's difficult to cut through agendas.
Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to
those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside
down would be a useful fact.


It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Wilbur Hubbard

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:04 PM:
....
Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to
those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside
down would be a useful fact.

Would it really be useful? Are you looking for a boat to 400 mile
passages, with no alternate refuge along the way? I'm not sure how
this info would help you decide between a Gemini 105 and a Mac 26M.

But I agree, it would be nice to know.

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.

The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

--Vic

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:30:16 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:04 PM:
...
Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to
those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside
down would be a useful fact.

Would it really be useful? Are you looking for a boat to 400 mile
passages, with no alternate refuge along the way? I'm not sure how
this info would help you decide between a Gemini 105 and a Mac 26M.

The Mac 26M was for Neal. But there are real issues to think about
when deciding between a mono and multi.
Catamarans are expensive. Aside from all other considerations, taking
a big financial hit because a boat was totaled instead of knocked down
makes a difference. If it's found this capt'n did something stupid
that makes a difference. If he had a drogue out and did everything
right but flipped that makes a difference.
I've seriously considered cats and have so far not shied away from the
turtle aspect because I've thought due diligence can prevent that.
Squall lines are common and some not so easily detected before they
hit, especially at night.
If this guy was duly diligent and still flipped, I probably won't
consider a cat, and Wilbur is right. If he screwed up, that's a
different story.

--Vic

On Apr 16, 6:44 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"

wrote:

It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.





The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was wondering the same exact thing, a weak link on the sheets.

Joe

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.


It was a very suspicious situation - they claimed the boat was worth
$300K, about triple its real value.

....
Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a
gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force.

I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging
sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a
hare-brained scheme I heard here ...)

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:31:49 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM:

...
Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a
gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force.

I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging
sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a
hare-brained scheme I heard here ...)

You would think that if a urinal can be taught to know when you're
****ing, then a cat can be taught to know when it's flipping.
If the sheets are run through a smart gripping device, that device
would let loose when a hull leaves the water.
Maybe some sort of sensor or float in each hull.
The heel idea with a simple mechanical level sensing device
might not work because even cats can roll heavily.
Anyway, sounds like another maintenance item, and maybe not
worth having if it reduces solid seaman-like attention.
They say anti-lock brakes just make people tail-gate more.
Beats me.

--Vic

--Vic