"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/16/2007 1:09 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm
carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful,
since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.)
But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls.

I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but
certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more
than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing
that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so
in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or
inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear
air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large
directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable,
and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to
avert
a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than
not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very
quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds,
and
typically with no harm done. Other than my small Hobie I've never
been on a cat when that sort of
thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it
would
go over just about every time.

My final decision to buy my cat was on a gusty day on the Chesapeake -
winds were 15-20, gusting up bit past that. We were beating at about
50 degrees true, slowing catching a Hunter. A gust hit us and the
Hunter went rail down, stalling out, but we just accelerated and went
by. Then the salesman told me to bear off a bit more, and the speed
shot up to 10 knots and I was hooked!

There is no doubt that in more extreme situations a catamaran can be
at risk. My boat (and several others I know of) are designed such
that full sail can generate enough force to tip her over in 45 knots.
Of course, carrying full sail in 45 knots is normally a no-no, so the
key is to anticipate such situations and not get caught.

Personally, I deliberately undersized my sails - stackpack on main,
high cut 120 jib instead of the standard 130. I reef early and often,
and don't hesitate to run the engine if it seems more prudent. Others
take the opposite approach, using a tall rig with a large headsail to
optimize performance in lighter air, but my thinking is that this only
moves the need for powering a couple of knots of wind lower, and
complicates things when it blows up.

More lame excuses than Carter's got pills!

1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize
you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with
undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop.

2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in
flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six
foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that
self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from
capsizing in the first place.

3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at
the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if
you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend
on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the
speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which
is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your
boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply
unconscionable, Jeff. Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities.
Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice
heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived
almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed
up on shore days later.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote:

He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING
MONOHULL....(c;

Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet
although there is a lot of denial about that. :-)

I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of
capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the
smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should
I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom?

This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat
be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit
small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be
curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major
storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit.

As for self righting, there are many, many stories of monohulls being
dismasted, often with structural damage. This was certainly not the
only rescue of the season

You again show you ignorant bias. You seem to think catamaran capsizes
and monohull capsizes should happen in equal proportions. And if you
hear of more monohull capsizes that bodes well for multihulls. But, you
forget that out on the oceans where capsizes mostly occur there are
probably 100 monohulls voyaging for every multi-hull voyaging. So, I've
heard of a half-dozen multi-hull capsizing in the past year so it would
follow, that if there was equal danger of monohulls capsizing, there
would have to be 600 tales of monohulls capsizing. See how silly your
rationalizing becomes when looked at realistically?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:


The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.

--Vic


We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night.
50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes.

Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize.
This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a
few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son.

http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html

They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped
while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in
the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft
range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes
you live and learn, sometimes you don't.

Joe

On Apr 16, 2:48 pm, "Joe" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:



The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.
--Vic

We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night.
50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes.

Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize.
This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a
few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son.

http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html

They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped
while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in
the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft
range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes
you live and learn, sometimes you don't.

Joe

I take it back, there are trip preventers, but they are so small I did
not notice them in the pictures.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:


The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.

--Vic


We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night.
50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes.

Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize.
This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a
few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son.

http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html

They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped
while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in
the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft
range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes
you live and learn, sometimes you don't.

Joe


That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How
stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it
from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that
pile of crap should be taken out and shot.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:


The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.

--Vic


We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night.
50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes.

Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize.
This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a
few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son.

http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html

They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped
while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in
the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft
range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes
you live and learn, sometimes you don't.

Joe


That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How
stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it
from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile
of crap should be taken out and shot.

Wilbur Hubbard

I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs.
That's the design of the supply boats used around here.
http://www.btinternet.com/~derek.mac...vessels01d.htm

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:


You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here
concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close
to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And
a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these
were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a
freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below
making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for
more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that
plague monohulls.

The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.

I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to
pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if
proper care was not taken.

If so, that puts a different light on it.

Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW,
"plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat.
I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight
through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that
you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum.

The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35'
I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and
weather circumstance of the incident.
Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the
boat capsized.

Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I
presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did
not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any
serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its
hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit
by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible.

This site is interesting for those seeking info on catamarans.
http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm

--Vic

ps. If Wilbur is right I might switch my boat-buying plans from
the Gemini 105 to the Mac 26M.

If you're planning Atlantic crossing, neither is appropriate.
However, for cruising Maine, the Chesapeake, or the ICW, the Keys, and
maybe a hop to the Bahamas, the Gemini would be just fine.

You must remember that Neal (aka Wilbur) lives on a 27 foot boat, and
while he claims its a "fine blue water passagemaker" he's never
actually been out of sight of land for more than a few hours. And
frankly since he hasn't shown any new pictures in several years,
there's some doubt as to whether it survived last year's storms.

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:27 PM:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
....

More lame excuses than Carter's got pills!

1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize
you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with
undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop.

No - I wanted the stack pack, and I don't like "deck sweeper" jibs
that restricted visibility. I wasn't trying to under size the sails,
I just had no reason to oversize them.


2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in
flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six
foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that
self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from
capsizing in the first place.

Sorry, you don't seem to understand the physics here. In general, it
would actually take both a 45 knots gust AND a large wave to capsize a
cat.


3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at
the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if
you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend
on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the
speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which
is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your
boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply
unconscionable, Jeff.

Your comments might be worth some consideration if in fact I was in
the habit of making North Atlantic crossings in winter. But you know
well that I have never taken my family out on anything longer than a
simple overnight crossing, and severe weather does not hit without
warning.

Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities.

You're funny, Neal! You've never taken any responsibility - never
married, never had a family, never owned property. You lost your boat
so now you hide behind sock puppets. And you lecture about
"responsibility." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice
heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived
almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed
up on shore days later.

I have good friends that had a Westsail (and are themselves good
friends of the skipper of Satori). They loved the security of the
boat. However, the boat was too heavy for them to handle as they got
older, and they ended up powering all of the time.

And remember, in the infamous "Queen's Birthday" Typhoon several years
ago two boats ended up on the bottom - a Westsail that was abandoned
(because no one on board could handle the tiller) and another heavy
displacement monohull that was lost with all hands. The two multihulls
that were abandoned were later salvaged.

That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How
stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it
from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that
pile of crap should be taken out and shot.

Wilbur Hubbard- -



OK Wilbore I'll bite.
Below the back deck are two main engine that weighs more than the
superstructure, plus 4-6 cement tanks that carry 2000 sacks each, 2-4
liquid mud tanks that carry up to 20,000 gallons, 25,000 gal fuel,
4000, gallons of firefighting foam, ect.ect.ect. The forward structure
is built like it is to keep the decks clear for cargo. She is neither
top heavy, or forward heavy.

Joe

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:18:11 GMT, "Don White"
said:

I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs.

Gotta cut Neal a little slack. He's not the brightest bulb on the tree.

He blew it there... it's now obvious that all his talk of long distance
cruising is no more than bilge water.